Posted on 12/06/2021 1:22:32 PM PST by ransomnote
No, I do not.
Explaining what is actually going on in Australia is not apologising for tyranny.
It's trying to get attention focused on the real problems not the made up crap.
There are real problems here. Lying about what is really happening helps conceal those real problems.
Better go back and read your posts from the past two months, and re-read my latest post to you. I’m truly sorry this is where we’re at but you were denying it then you moved to justifying it and now you’re backtracking. I’m going to let it lay right here and not engage it further confrontation of an ally and fellow Freeper, it’s not normally my style
No, I have not denied what you are claiming I denied. That is an absolute fact.
You are not telling the truth. You are lying.
I hate hypocrisy. It's even worse when it founded in lies.
It's perfectly legitimate to criticise Australia for things that are really happening. But when people are making things up as well - and that is happening - I find it extraordinary that people would rather believe the lies than be told the truth.
I have pointed out that some of the things Americans are being told are happening in Australia are either exaggerated, misleading, or outright lies. Some. Not all. But not what I am seeing is people claiming I have said nothing bad is happening - when I've been extremely explicit in saying repeatedly that there are some very real problems here. And people are going further and lying about what I've said. Just a few minutes ago in this thread, I saw somebody state that I've denied anybody has been detained in Australia. I have never said anything like that. Thousands of people have been required to quarantine in Australia throughout this pandemic. I've never denied that or come close to doing so.
I have spent the last year and a half trying to fight against that. But it's been made much harder because of misinformation and lies being spread outside Australia. Every time somebody makes something up, it makes it harder for those of us who are actually trying to get the real problems addressed to be believed.
And when people say we said things we never said...
I've never said nobody was being detained in Australia. That's just a simple fact.
I understand your motivation and frustration with comments made here by others, but I still stand by my comment. I fail to see how retorting with all of the well-known freedoms loss in the US as an answer makes a point. If anything, it engenders animosity, probably much like that which you feel over what you see as misinformed perceptions about what’s going on in Australia with Covid response.
I’ve never said nobody was being detained in Australia.
This is true. I’m also pleased to here you are engaged in the fight. It seems your attitude has changed in the post couple days. Good on you, let’s move forward.
Thank you. I disagree with your interpretation of some of the other things you've claimed I've said, but I can at least understand how you might have reasonably come to those conclusions. I think there's misunderstanding there, not I can understand it. I'm trying to describe some complex things and I may not have always done a good job of it.
But on that particular issues, it's black and white.
It seems your attitude has changed in the post couple days.
Not really.
I just think a lot of people have not understood the parts of my posts where I'm saying there are real problems here. They seem to think that's the type of disclaimer you get from politicians. I'm not a politician. I mean it when I say it. And so, I get rather annoyed when I see people claiming things like I'm saying nothing's wrong in Australia. There's a lot that is wrong in various parts of Australia. Maybe I've spent too much time focusing on trying to deal with the lies, and could have done more to outline the actual problems in detail - but the lies have been causing us massive problems, and I don't have unlimited time.
But the situation in Australia has changed - at least it has for me. The biggest fight I have been involved in is trying to stop the Premier of Victoria getting new laws passed that were going to make things much worse. And that's where we were having real problems because of misinformation. It becomes much harder to argue against a new law that would allow people to be imprisoned on the whim of the Premier, when people believe that worse things are already happening. People keep asking why we're not focusing on made up stuff they've heard about on the internet.
Well, for the moment, that battle is over. We had a partial victory - we succeeded in having those new laws watered down significantly. We didn't completely succeed - there's still a couple of areas of deep concern - but we can't do much about that for the moment.
The amount of misinformation being spread and uncritically accepted has also reduced.
That has allowed me to turn my attention to other issues. While I was fighting for Victoria, I didn't have the same amount of attention to focus on somewhere like the Northern Territory, but, to an extent, that is now the main battlefield. To be clear, I do not like what the Northern Territory government is doing in terms of mandatory quarantine. I do not believe COVID is serious enough to justify the quarantine regime they have in place.
But I do understand a lot of why they feel they need to do it. It's ridiculous that close to two years into this pandemic, they haven't increased their ICU capacity to a level that could cope with even 1000 COVID cases at once (not that 1000 people would be in ICU, but they only have about 8 ICU beds they could easily divert to handle the small minority of cases that do need intensive care). I also do not necessarily with the attitudes of the Aboriginal Health Service, but at the same time, given the history of white Australians like myself in not listening to these people, I do try to treat their views with respect. And they are a major driver of what is happening in the Northern Territory. And I don't think that can be ignored. I believe they need to take the lead on saying what is and isn't needed for indigenous people, and the fact that they do support what's happened is therefore, to me, highly relevant. And I think it deserves explanation.
Thank you for your very thoughtful and tempered reply. I wish you well in your endeavor to forestall additional controls in Victoria. Maybe some of the misunderstandings has to do with style, I hope that’s the case.
You are in agreement with those who chip away at liberty a little at a time, justifying usurpations in the name of safety and security, which never ends well for the people.
Freedom is a zero sum game. The people of Australia lost the game when they gave up their natural right to bear arms.
Communists (tyrants generally) who control governments are never satisfied with the power they have. History has shown that they will use any means necessary to increase that power until they have it all. Today they have a powerful weapon at their disposal, the virus; tomorrow it will be something more innovative and divisive, like Climate Change.
No government-declared emergency, NOTHING, supercedes an individual’s God-given rights.
I forgot to mention: the most sacred weapon of the tyrant is division. Divide and govern is their Maxim.
No. I'm really not. I support some things under some circumstances. I don't support others. I don't believe that support for one thing has any bearing on not supporting other unrelated things or vice versa.
Freedom is a zero sum game. The people of Australia lost the game when they gave up their natural right to bear arms.
Every society on earth - including yours - limits freedom in some ways. And Australians never gave up any natural right to bear arms. We never really thought we had one - that seems to be an American obsession more than anything else - and what you're talking about is probably what happened in 1996 here, which was nowhere near as severe as Americans seem to believe anyway. There are more guns in private hands in Australia now than there were then.
We believe our rights are protected, not by having guns, but by having freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and a functioning democratic system of government. I don't think we do significantly better on these measures than America does - but I don't think we do significantly worse either. I do think we are worse on gun rights. I think we're better on religious freedom. It's swings and roundabouts in a lot of ways.
Communists (tyrants generally) who control governments are never satisfied with the power they have.
I broadly agree with that.
History has shown that they will use any means necessary to increase that power until they have it all.
And I agree with that as well.
But I also believe they can be stopped. And, frankly, I think it's going to be easier to stop that here in Australia than it will be in the United States.
My state government is awful. But I've far more confidence in my federal government, than I think Americans should be in theirs.
Today they have a powerful weapon at their disposal, the virus; tomorrow it will be something more innovative and divisive, like Climate Change.
Some of them will try. I'll do my best to stop then when I believe they are going too far.
No government-declared emergency, NOTHING, supercedes an individual’s God-given rights.
That's a perfectly reasonable position - but show me any human society where it actually works out that way in every single instance.
I forgot to mention: the most sacred weapon of the tyrant is division. Divide and govern is their Maxim.
I agree. And that's what I think China is trying to do in this case - it's trying to split Australia and the United States through propaganda. Unfortunately, it seems to be working way too well. And if I try to oppose it, by providing facts - well, people who want to just want to believe all the propaganda don't seem to like that.
>>You are in agreement with those who chip away at liberty a little at a time, justifying usurpations in the name of safety and security, which never ends well for the people.
>No. I’m really not. I support some things under some circumstances. I don’t support others. I don’t believe that support for one thing has any bearing on not supporting other unrelated things or vice versa.
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No, you actually are. You admit you support the taking of personal liberty in some cases if you believe it is justified. That is exactly what I wrote in my initial paragraph above.
>>Freedom is a zero sum game. The people of Australia lost the game when they gave up their natural right to bear arms.
>Every society on earth - including yours - limits freedom in some ways. And Australians never gave up any natural right to bear arms. We never really thought we had one - that seems to be an American obsession more than anything else - and what you’re talking about is probably what happened in 1996 here, which was nowhere near as severe as Americans seem to believe anyway. There are more guns in private hands in Australia now than there were then.
We believe our rights are protected, not by having guns, but by having freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and a functioning democratic system of government. I don’t think we do significantly better on these measures than America does - but I don’t think we do significantly worse either. I do think we are worse on gun rights. I think we’re better on religious freedom. It’s swings and roundabouts in a lot of ways.
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Every time a government makes a law, it limits freedom. Restricting healthy people to quarantine or lockdown in their houses (or involuntary internment camps) is a Crime Against Humanity. Thinking that talking sternly to your rulers is going to restore your liberty is naive. Government is force.
>>Today they have a powerful weapon at their disposal, the virus; tomorrow it will be something more innovative and divisive, like Climate Change.
>Some of them will try. I’ll do my best to stop then when I believe they are going too far.
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With what? A strongly worded letter? Rigged elections? They have already gone too far with trillions of dollars governments have spent on this scam. It is a huge worldwide racket -a monetary transfer from poor people’s pockets to the wealthy global power elites.
>>No government-declared emergency, NOTHING, supercedes an individual’s God-given rights.
>That’s a perfectly reasonable position - but show me any human society where it actually works out that way in every single instance.
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Of course it doesn’t work out. When people stop being Ever Vigilant, tyranny makes progress, which underscores the whole intent behind our 2nd Amendment.
No, you're wrong. You claimed I was in agreement with people I am most certainly not in agreement with.
I know my own mind. You do not. Please stop trying to claim I believe things I do not. Or that I support things I do not.
I do not have to read your mind. Your words spoke for themselves.
As you are claiming I support or believe things I don’t believe, do not support, and have never said, the problem is yours.
I live in the real world.
Not some utopian or dystopian fantasy.
You appear to be damaged beyond repair.
As you’re the one making things up about me, I guess you can make any claim you like and have it be true in your head.
Your efforts to peddle non-liberty ideas as reasonable on this liberty-loving site is a no-sale. Perhaps you should navigate to a more “moderate”, “reasonable”, “real world” site, lol. Whatever. Now that I have determined you are no true liberty lover, I am done speaking with you.
I have been here seventeen years and think I’ve more than proven my conservative credentials.
The fact you can’t handle nuance, complexity, to the extent you need to create a fantasy world makes me despair for the future of conservatism. We didn’t used to be the ones who had to create elaborate fantasies to hide from reality.
More arrogant condescension. Again, No Sale. If you were American, you would be a RINO.
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