how to argue out of a california automated speed trap? legality??

me | 2023-6-20 | me

[Alberta's Child]

The private company ownership of speed cameras can actually work to the advantage of the citizenry.

In my experience, the key to getting rid of these cameras is to make it inordinately expensive for the private companies to operate the system. There are several perfectly legal ways to do this.

[Alberta's Child]

What has happened in recent years is that more and more toll authorities have implemented a system known as “open road tolling.” This means there are no longer any toll booths in place, and a motorist has no option of paying a cash toll (which is now rental car drivers would have typically paid tolls in the past).

These toll authorities had been working to adopt this technology for years, but the process was accelerated in 2020 when the COVID fiasco led many of them to do it for sanitary reasons by eliminating cash handling by toll booth attendants.

So motorists on many toll roads and bridges now simply drive under a gantry system of detectors and cameras. If you are a regular user and you have a toll transponder like E-ZPass in the Northeast or SunPass in Florida, your account is debited automatically. If you don’t, your license plate is photographed and you get a bill in the mail. You typically pay a higher toll in the latter scenario — to cover the added cost of preparing and sending a bill.

Rental car companies began writing provisions about tolls and automated traffic enforcement into their contracts when this “bill in the mail” situation became more common.

[oldtech]

The automated speed traps should probably be outlawed. Know of a friend who was notified through one of these which identified his license number(partially) that pointed to a violation. Vehicle was wrongly identified & the man in question had not ever been at that location & was MANY miles away when the violation occurred. Yet he had to go through all the trouble proving it could not possibly have been the guilty party. After much time passed, I guess the police realized the charge wouldn’t stick. These automated traps should be outlawed. They serve one purpose; a revenue raiser.

[SteveH]

> These toll authorities had been working to adopt this technology for years, but the process was accelerated in 2020 when the COVID fiasco led many of them to do it for sanitary reasons by eliminating cash handling by toll booth attendants.

That is what I recall from personal driving experience in California and Florida, only the implementation date seems to me to have been a couple of years earlier.

Maybe it took until the Covid era for the system to spread to other states (?)

[yelostar]

That’s interesting.

[Valpal1]

“To my understanding, 5A makes no exceptions for testifying against others.”

Then you understand incorrectly, that is what subpoenas are for. You can be compelled to testify and jailed for refusing.

And yes, they can suspend your driving privileges, possibly impound your car in some states depending on how many and what kind of tickets you’ve racked up. Especially if you get pulled over with a suspended license.

“Then I have the same right not to view it as a bill of attainder. It is just a demand with no force of law. I could ask you for $150 right here if I had your driver’s ID info. It’s a demand but not a demand that has the force of criminal law or civil contract.”

erm, that is just silly talk, you don’t have the “right” to view laws anyway you please. Also, traffic laws are laws passed by legislatures so they do have the force of law.

It is not a bill of attainder because you can appear in traffic court if you so please. You are not being declared guilty without trial. You are being asked to admit guilt and pay the fine or name someone else as the driver of YOUR car and it is legal to compel that information if you know it. You’re trying to pretend you have the legal right to aid and abet the illegal actions of another. That’s not how civil society works.

There are other defenses like stolen plates or stolen car, malfunctioning or non functioning lights or camera malfunctions.

[Valpal1]

Well, I got busy looking at OR and WA statutes because that’s where I drive and discovered that the legislatures have not included language requiring you to identify a driver other than yourself unless it is a business owned vehicle.

And you can use an independently written declaration of innocence or affidavit omitting the identification of another driver rather than using the one sent.

Don’t know what Commifornia requires because I will never set foot in that state, much less drive in it again.

[SteveH]

I’m half expecting California to have hardwired this stuff into the state vehicle code. I was hoping you would have been in California.

I’m generally aware that state vehicle codes describe privileges and not rights, and that unlike rights, privileges can be taken away.

i do think the concept of arbitrary automated vehicle fines deserves to be looked at closely prior to paying fines. so i will continue to examine the legalities (and at times, argue devil’s advocate positions to see if anything shakes out).

thanks for your input since it gives me an idea of where weaknesses in my arguments might reside.

[SteveH]

I also found this, with respect to auto insurance:

“Car insurance companies don’t care about the number of points you get on your license, but they do care about any accidents or violations on your driving record. So if you have points on your license from a DUI or an accident, that’s what will raise your car insurance rates, not the actual number of points.”

https://www.policygenius.com/auto-insurance/do-points-on-your-license-affect-your-insurance/

(so, some comfort from a small silver lining in all of this)