how to argue out of a california automated speed trap? legality??

me | 2023-6-20 | me

[SteveH]

hypothetically, a driver gets flashed by an automated speed trap at a california intersection, running a green light.

he (or she or they) is(are) wearing a baseball hat and dark sunglasses. ho.e/she/they have facial hair which did not show in their last driver's license photo, years ago.

the usual drill (so i have learned in a different california county) is that -- in theory-- the automated incident notice first goes to a reviewing human police officer. the police officer looks at the incident photos and tries to make a facial match with the registered owner. if the officer succeeds, and maybe even if not, a notice is sent to the registered owner, demanding that the owner sign a determination of who was driving the vehicle at the time the alleged violation occurred.

if the registered owner wants to argue in court (say a defective machine) he/she/they have to sign that they are the driver. then, in court, the reviewing officer is called to identify the owner (if she/he/they can-- although to get a court hearing, the owner has already been coerced into signing that he/she/they were the driver at the time of the incident.

isn't this demand a violation of the 5th amendment? and isn't the fine levied if the notice is not signed and returned an unconstitutional bill of attainder?

aren't people innocent until proven guilty?

what if the noticed is returned, signed "5th amendment under duress"?

what if there is no reviewing police officer between the time of the event and a notice sent to the registered owner? should there be some human reviewing this or can machines determine probable guilt and generate liability for fines these days without any human input or review?

[kiryandil]

Be Hunter Biden.

[Libloather]

No loot or E-ZPass required on the PA turnpike. They take a pic of the plates entering and exiting. The owner gets the bill no matter what they look like.

[Ikeon]

in maryland, it doesn’t matter whos driving, The owner of the car is who gets to pay the ticket. Its the owners problem to collect if someone else was driving, its not a points violation anyway. Stop wearing clown outfits and pay the ticket.

[Jonty30]

Up in Canada, they tie the offense to the car and let the owner pay when he needs government services. They don’t worry about whether it was the owner of the car that created the offense. They leave it to the owner that, if he wasn’t driving, he has to get his money back from the person who was driving.

I suspect California figured how to not violate the 5th Amendment of due process, so you’re stuck with your ticket.

[dinodino]

Don’t take legal advice from the internet. Also, your questions are stupid.

[Krosan]

There is a company giving you cheap boilerplate letters.

https://donotpay.com/

I don’t know how well it works, but at least it is something.

[Ciaphas Cain]

I once got caught by a red light camera. I had the company running it subpoenaed. Asked them to provide me with the source code for the camera. I told them that it was my right to face my accuser and since the only witness was the computer operating the camera, I wanted to cross examine it.

The company dropped the case like a hot rock.

[Fido969]

State try to sell the idea that “driving is a privileged”. The mistake is accepting that premise. Once it’s removed from the “rights” column, a lot of civil liberties fall away.

[SteveH]

w3hat is stupid about my questions?

i have beaten two traffic tickets in a row (one of them automated).

please explain your response in detail, otherwise i think your comment says more about you than about me.

[Ikeon]

If you e beaten 2 traffic tickets in a row,you are either a menace on the road or drugs ving while black. either way, you should be giving advice not asking questions you already know the answer to.

you feeling lucky punk? head on over to emporia virgina and try to beat a traffic ticket. the court has 2 sides, one side is people with expensive lawyers($300-$500 per ticket) the other is - y'all just go pay the court clerk.

[Alberta's Child]

In my experience in the Northeast, the agency sending the summons doesn’t care who is driving the vehicle. They only care who it’s registered to. They only want the money from the fine, which is why there are no points on the driver’s license for the violation.

Presumably, this gets around the 5th Amendment because they’re basically citing a vehicle, not a person, for the violation.

[ConservativeMind]

“hypothetically, a driver gets flashed by an automated speed trap at a california intersection, running a green light.”

This is a joke, right?

[jagusafr]

Hire a traffic lawyer. Then be prepared to appeal. How much money is it worth to you to get out of a ticket

[Vendome]

It’s a violation of the 6th amendment

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

[ansel12]

“””Presumably, this gets around the 5th Amendment because they’re basically citing a vehicle, not a person, for the violation.”””

I don’t understand how it can be legal to make me guilty of anything done by someone driving my car.

That must be terrible for rental companies and I guess it will come to apply to skeet shotguns and baseball bats eventually.

[BobL]

You can tell what people think of the Constitution and/or who has relatives working for red light camera companies.

...just on this thread.

[Alberta's Child]

A motor vehicle violation is not a criminal charge. It’s not adjudicated in a criminal court, there’s no jury involved, and the defendant faces no jail time if found guilty.

In most (if not all) states in the U.S., even a DUI is not a criminal charge.

[Real Cynic No More]

Most driving violations are misdemeanor, not criminal.

[Lockbox]

I suspect California figured how to not violate the 5th Amendment of due process, so you’re stuck with your ticket.

I figure the State does not care. Do you know the cost of hiring a lawyer to sue the State over this one? No one can afford to sue, that’s the way the State looks at it.....