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Should evolution be taught in high school science classes?
Modesto Bee ^ | 10/27/03 | Richard Anderson

Posted on 10/31/2003 4:23:35 AM PST by Dales

Edited on 04/13/2004 1:56:09 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Editor's note: Ted Dickason, a candidate for Modesto City Schools board of trustees, has stated that he believes evolution and creationism should be taught side by side in high school science classes. This position has generated substantial debate in the community, including this article opposing the teaching of creationism in schools and the two letters to the editor to the right supporting creationism and/or Dickason.


(Excerpt) Read more at modbee.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; scienceeducation
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To: Physicist
They may have written off the big crunch a little too early, wouldn't be the first time science had to revise. God says he is the Alpha and the Omega. If aplha is x, the big bang, and omega is y, the big crunch, the universe would expand to a certain point then be pulled toward the omega, and in it's collapse the stars would blur and appear to fall. In fact, what if the unexpected speeding up of the universe is a result of being pulled toward the omega? I would like to know if this increase in speed is expotential, if it is, uh oh.

Science already claims that at one point the earth was watered from a mist that rose from the ground, I would think that would be a good place to start an investigation as to how that might coincide time wise with this explosion of species.
81 posted on 10/31/2003 10:57:33 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Right Wing Professor
The oldest surviving copy of any part of the Old Testament is the Dead Sea Scrolls, circa 1st and 2nd century BC. Prior to the discovery of those in 1947, the next oldest surviving copy was circa 800.

In contrast, Gilgamesh was written on clay tablets circa 2000 BC, and those tablets survive today.

Bible scholars may get snippy about this, but it's true.
82 posted on 10/31/2003 11:02:01 AM PST by CobaltBlue (Is there a lawyer ping list?)
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To: Right Wing Professor
To clarify, by circa 800, I meant circa 800 AD. As I understand it, the Old Testament wasn't reduced to writing for a very long time, similar to the Illiad and the Odyssey.
83 posted on 10/31/2003 11:03:57 AM PST by CobaltBlue (Is there a lawyer ping list?)
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To: CobaltBlue
The oldest surviving copy of any part of the Old Testament is the Dead Sea Scrolls, circa 1st and 2nd century BC. Prior to the discovery of those in 1947, the next oldest surviving copy was circa 800.

I wasn't aware of that. Gosh, the fidelity of the transmission has to be a worry, then. Oral history tends to accumulate embroidery. The Iliad and Odyssey started as historical record, and ended up with Cyclops and people turned into animals.

84 posted on 10/31/2003 11:11:07 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: CobaltBlue
The Summerian tablets are even older then the tablets of Gilgamesh, and that creation story is very fascinating.
85 posted on 10/31/2003 11:13:56 AM PST by Ogmios (Since when is 66 senate votes for judicial confirmations constitutional?)
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To: CobaltBlue
The oldest surviving copy of any part of the Old Testament is the Dead Sea Scrolls, circa 1st and 2nd century BC. Prior to the discovery of those in 1947, the next oldest surviving copy was circa 800.

My Spidey sense tells me something is wrong here.

86 posted on 10/31/2003 11:14:14 AM PST by js1138
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To: Right Wing Professor
the fidelity of the transmission has to be a worry, then

That's where Divine Revelation comes in. The theory is that God wants man to know what's what, so He inspires His scribes so that they get it right.

This is the source of the joke about the lady who insisted that she relied on the King James Version, "just as Jesus wrote it Himself!" Of course, there are still variorum editions, which gives Biblical scholars something to do for a living, and keeps a lot of them employed.

It probably won't surprise you that the Catholic version and the Protestant versions differ quite a bit.

87 posted on 10/31/2003 11:16:41 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: MissAmericanPie
Nobody here hates hillbillies with crooked smiles. Ok, one ex president, but that's understood.

Now they have come to realize the universe is too complex for accident, I can't tell you how I laughed when I read an article that bemused scientist have climed the mountain of knowledge...

Hmm. Can you please point me to this article? I'm very interested in such things. I wonder, however, if it's a typo or if you purposely meant to write the singular "scientist." My guess is you meant to do it, even if the verb tense doesn't agree.

Isn't it amazing that puddles always have the perfect amount of water in them?
88 posted on 10/31/2003 11:17:02 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
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To: CobaltBlue
It probably won't surprise you that the Catholic version and the Protestant versions differ quite a bit.

No, indeed. I was brought up on the Revised Standard Version. I wasn't aware until a few years ago that the Catholic and Protestant numberings of the Commandments were different. When people were accusing Clinton of violating the seventh commandment, I wondered what they thought he'd stolen!

(They also never told us, at least not in grade school, what adultery was, no doubt so we wouldn't get ideas. It was clear it was a bad thing, though.)

89 posted on 10/31/2003 11:25:31 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: CobaltBlue; Right Wing Professor
My Spidey sense tells me that while the dead sea scrolls may be the oldest surviving manuscripts, the other manuscripts were transmitted for a long time in written form, not just as oral history. Still room for copy errors to creep in, but not as bad as oral history.
90 posted on 10/31/2003 11:25:48 AM PST by js1138
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To: Dales
DENNIS MILLER: In this messed up world, I like seeing my President pray. I don’t think a person can get answers out of books anymore. This is an infinitely complex world and at some point one has to have faith in one’s religion. I find it endearing that President Bush prays to God and that he’s not an agnostic or an atheist. I’m glad there’s ... someone higher --- that he has to answer to.
91 posted on 10/31/2003 11:26:16 AM PST by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: CobaltBlue
Cobalt, are you aware that the DSS also discuss new testament events as well?
92 posted on 10/31/2003 11:26:34 AM PST by Shryke
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To: Dales
It should be taught for what it is, one of many religious views on the origins of man.
93 posted on 10/31/2003 11:29:05 AM PST by biblewonk (I must answer all bible questions.)
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To: js1138
My Spidey sense tells me something is wrong here.

It is my understanding that the oldest fragment of the Old Testament is a fragment of Deuteronomy in Greek from the 2nd century BC. The oldest Hebrew fragment is from the Dead Sea Scrolls, as I stated. The oldest complete Hebrew version is the Leningrad Codex, circa 1008.

94 posted on 10/31/2003 11:29:40 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Physicist
"Things should be made as simple as possible...but no simpler."

Turtles. It's turtles all the way down.

95 posted on 10/31/2003 11:30:29 AM PST by dread78645 (Hating Libertarians doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: js1138
It is said that older versions were rewritten and rewritten and lost. How can one prove that or disprove it?
96 posted on 10/31/2003 11:31:13 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Dales
Is the speed of light what it is, just because?

I think most people will eventually come to see that the 20th century was the time when the illusion that science was catching up cornering mystery was strongest. It's distinctily fading these days, what with string theory and all those sub atomic particles.

On another thread someone posted that the favorite symbol of atheists was one symbolizing the atom. That, of course was chosen before the quark showed up.

97 posted on 10/31/2003 11:34:16 AM PST by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Dales
Then go back further still. Did hydrogen and oxygen just come into existence by accident? Did the physical laws which govern chemistry just come into existence by accident? Is the speed of light what it is, just because?

Well, I addressed that at some level in the rest of post #41, but I can expand upon that a bit.

My personal opinion, as a Deist, is that there is design, but it occurs at the level of the structure of mathematics. Physics, of course, is bound to adhere to mathematics.

In physics, phenomena are either accidental or consequential. (N.B.: save your objections about "intentional"; I'll get to that later.) The evaporation of a water droplet, with which I was challenging HankReardon, is consequential: under the conditions I described, it has to evaporate. It could not have been otherwise. The decay of a subatomic particle, by contrast, is accidental. All possible locally causal mechanisms have been disproven.

Now, which fundamental phenomena are consequential and which are accidental? As it turns out, that question occupies much of the theoretical side of high energy physics. In most cases, we don't know, but in many, we do. The mass of the proton, for example, is a consequence of quantum chromodynamics. You can program a computer to calculate it. By contrast, the difference between the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces is--we are pretty sure--an accident. (Once we find the Higgs boson, we'll nail down the last details.) This is what determines the masses of the elementary fermions, such as the electron.

[Geek alert: The term for such accidents is "Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking". It's easy to come up with real-world examples of this. Take a knitting needle and stand it on its point. Then let it go, and it will fall. The fallen needle will end up pointing in some specific direction. This "breaks" or "hides" the symmetry of rotational invariance that the needle enjoyed when it was standing on end. It used to appear the same from any direction; now it points one way but not another. (The symmetry is still implicit in the fact that the needle could have fallen in any direction.) The fall of the needle was consequential, but the final direction of the needle was accidental.]

So what parameters are calculable, like the proton mass, and what parameters are accidental, like the electron mass? We're working on that. Sometimes parameters that look accidental turn out to be forced by the physics at a deeper level. Some physicists believe that everything will be forced: you start with a single mathematical idea, and it just unfolds into a universe like ours, ineluctably. (That's why I expect the design to come in at an even deeper level, before even physics.) At this point, however, it really looks as if there are some accidents along the way.

And finally, what of intention? How do we can we know whether some of the falling knitting needles weren't shoved in particular directions? In fact, we can't. All we see are the fallen needles; no direction is less likely than another. The intentional acts, if there were any, will look to science exactly the same as accidents. And that's really the ultimate compatibility between logic and faith, between science and religion.

Every winning lottery ticket is somebody's miracle...but not every mist rising from the ground is anybody's science.

98 posted on 10/31/2003 11:37:01 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Dales
Yes, evolution should be taught.

And can I ask the creationists something? Why did God wait 14.9999999999999999999999999998723542 billion years to create Jesus on planet earth?

We know for a FACT that the Universe is this old...The earth is approximately 1/3 as old as the Universe...meaning it was not created within the first 7 days of everything.
99 posted on 10/31/2003 11:38:07 AM PST by Capitalism2003
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To: CobaltBlue
It is said that older versions were rewritten and rewritten and lost. How can one prove that or disprove it?

Proof isn't possible, but if one had argued in 1900(without evidence in hand) that early versions of the Bible were written down, then that speculation would have received confirming evidence with the Scrolls. The existence of the Scrolls convinces me that people were writing down what "is written".

100 posted on 10/31/2003 11:39:32 AM PST by js1138
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