Turkey: 'Sow war and reap terror' (Clinton's role in the rise of al-Qaeda)

atimes.com ^ | Nov 22, 2003 | K Gajendra Singh

[Robert_Paulson2]

no outrage... doncha know?
"Islam is peace."

puke and vomit

[Amerigomag]

There was never any genocide in Kosovo

The querry and the response involved Bosnia.

Happy to discuss Kosovo if you like but you will have to change your premise if you expext either opposition or a lack of outrage over the current version of the ancient holy war.

But before you issue a challenge be advised that I subscribe to the old adage: If you plan to become an active participant in an existing religious war be sure to kill all the participants, men, women and children, on both sides.

[Dog Anchor]

I AGREE WITH YOUR ANALOGY WITH PEARL.

WE CANNOT DECLARE WAR BECAUSE THERE IS NO STATE TO
DECLARE WAR ON. WE COULD DECLARE WAR ON ISLAM BUT
HOLD ONTO YOUR HAT.

ANSWERS? CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS
SAMUEL P HUNTINGTON

[a_Turk]

F*** Gajendra Singh. And the Destro he rode in on.

[a_Turk]

>> After Turkey is overrun?

Bwah-hah

Bwah-hah

Bwah-hah-hah-hah-haaaaa!

[txhurl]

More importantly...

MONSOOR IJAZ told us the Day after the Attacks of September 11, 2001 on the FoX News Channel that the CLINTONS had refused 3 Offers he negotiated with the Sudan during the 1990's to hand over OSAMA bin LADEN to us on a Silver Platter.

Since then both the Sudanese Ambassador to the U.S. representing the Sudan President during these 3 Offers as well as the CLINTONS' own White House Political Advisor, DICK MORRIS, have confirmed what MONSSOR IJAZ told us 2 years ago...

...I hang onto everything MONSOOR IJAZ has to tell us. And I think the BUSH White House does also.

...And so does the Democrat Party...for very different reasons.

MONSSOR IJAZ = The Most Feared Man in America by Democrats

145 posted on 11/20/2003 6:36 PM CST by ALOHA RONNIE (Vet-Battle of IA DRANG-1965 www.LZXRAY.com)

From this thread:~Bin Laden In Iran

[txhurl]

swarthydude is all US. I ping him to his disgust. He rocks... trust me.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

.."It's now the Communists & Muslims of the World vs...


the Christians & Jews of the World" =


...OSAMA bin LADEN, early 2003


*****WAR HAS ALREADY BEEN DECLARED ON...

........................US******

[KingofQue]

The muslims bring the fight down to the family unit. It may be culture vs culture but it is fought at the smallest denominator. Making us the unprepared. Normal relations in Western civilizations do not contain homicide bombers. They are simply tactics in the larger picture. What is required is a simple response. Their tactics are maximum casulties with minimum loss. The response should be similar. When muslims are at prayer attack, they are vulnerable. As abhorrent as it sounds we need to attack their women and children, for that is what they have done to us. That is the only thing that will stop them. The men consider it a privlage to die for allah. The women create children that are the next wave of fighters. Eliminate the women and children and they have no fighters. As terrible as this sounds this is how wars have been fought. When you are no longer able to field a force you are defeated.

[KingofQue]

Since the Palistinians... Since the Iranians... Since the taliban ... Since Osama... Since the european union... Want me to go on???

[mark502inf]

Like most US citizens I played a lot of historical, catchup ball as the conflict widened. The pattern that emerged was not secular but religious. The continuation of a religious conflict that stretched back to the middle ages.

Careful with the religious angle. The Serb-Albanian conflict is based on ethnicity, not religion. Some of the top leaders of the KLA were Catholic. And the KLA membership took in all Albanians, regardless whether irreligious, Orthodox, Catholic, or Muslim. The Catholic churches in Kosovo were untouched by the Albanians; although the bishop of Kosovo did register complaints about Serbian harassment of his parishioners and Yugo Army take-overs of Catholic churches and property for their own use. The Albanian destruction of Orthodox churches can be explained (not excused) by the inextricable relationship between the Serbian Orthodox Church and Serbian nationalism.

Of note, the small Bosniak, Roma, and Gorani populations in Kosovo, also Muslim, have been treated just as badly by the Albanians as the remaining Serbs. The issue is not religion, despite the best propaganda efforts of the Serb nationalists to portray it as such in their efforts to paint their enemies as our enemies.

[Destro]

bump

[mark502inf]

Anybody else of the opinion that we backed the WRONG side of the Balkans conflict?

I sure hope you aren't saying we should have backed our "friends" the Serbs. Under Milosevic, Yugoslavia & its successor Serbian entities were busy arming Iraq, Libya and indirectly anyone Libya and Iraq supplied. The Serbs were selling weaponry including explosives for use in artillery shells, rocket fuel, cruise missile technology, maintenance assistance and even providing military and defense technology advisers throughout the 90s and right on up to 2002; all in violation of international sanctions and in direct opposition to U.S. interests. Its very possible that American soldiers have been killed or maimed in Iraq with explosives provided by the Serbs. The Yugos/Serbs have done much the same with Qaddafi's Libya, so who knows how much stuff has gone further to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

The U.S. government has protested and Kostunica has been doing his best to get this under control, but corruption & anti-American attitudes among Milosevic hold-overs have made it tough to root it all out. Under Milosevic, Serbia was an enemy of the USA and a friend to our enemies.

[txhurl]

Yes... go on..?

[Destro]

Mark, in his support of the Albanians missed the point of the article. In order to help these "nationalistic" Balkan (secular) Muslims (Mark's emphasis) the Clinton administration set up and worked along side al-Qaedaistic elements to bring them into parts of the world they never were involved in and now these Muslim "assets" have mutated beyond their original function and like a cancer are now attacking from lairs the Clinton administration helped set up to use for its obsession against the Serbs.

[Robert_Paulson2]

I only hope YOUR guys have the balls to shut it down before you lose your entire parliament in an al quaida "incident."

I hope your faith in a secularist Turkey... proves to be true... or you will have civil war within your own ranks.

Your several recent bombings and multiple deaths at the hands of the radicals, is only part of what they seek to do.. in punishment for your Nation's democratic and secularist leanings.

You need to be safe.
all is NOT well in the world... even in Turkey.

Turkey is in very real danger of being overrun FROM WITHIN...
Laugh all you want, I hope your confidence is well placed.

--robert

[marron]

Our relations with the Islamic world have been evolving.

At one time it was convenient to see Saudi Arabia as a US safe zone, they were a rich pal who seemed to have no ambitions of his own beyond helping us to balance our budget and seeing to it that our key politicians and State Deparment weenies had a comfortable retirement. Since they seemed content in that role, it all seemed rather harmless.

And since they rather hermetically controlled their territory, and their banking secrecy is pretty complete, it makes a great platform for all kinds of operations, as well as a good place to get funding for those operations that Congress would not want to know about.

The first attempt at playing for bigger stakes came when Carter and his national security advisor decided that Islam could be harnessed as a direct hammer against Communism much more effectively than could Western values, which seemed to be on the defensive everywhere (including within Carter's own cerebrum). They withdrew support for the Shah and encouraged the rise of the Ayatollah, which has led to a generation of misery and warfare.

It also made the Saudis even more important as our outpost in the Islamic world.

Then, we turned to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia as full partners in the war to eject the Soviets from Afghanistan. It worked. From there it was easy for us to see the possibilty of using Islam to open up the Soviet underbelly. It also awakened the Saudis and Pakistanis to the possibilities of projecting themselves into Central Asia which, with the fall of the USSR, suddenly became very possible.

I continue to maintain that our foreign policy during the nineties was written in Riyadh. Our policy of supporting jihad which had some sense directed at the Soviets ceased to have any further reason to exist almost as soon as we formulated it, since the Soviet Union fell very quickly after they withdrew from Afghanistan. And US companies began to operate in Central Asia very early in the nineties, and to form partnerships with Russian companies, which made the insurgent friends of friends a threat to our quickly evolving interests in the region.

But what normal people could see very quickly, the State Department and the Clintons failed to see, and they continued to support Islamic movements where ever they found them, even when they began to attack the US. Our first responses to attacks on us were calibrated to be weak, because these movements were abetted by our Saudi and Pakistani allies. Thus, our failure to take Bin Ladin when he was offered was not a mistake, but intentional.

We did not back away from these movements until GW Bush took office, and made his partnership with Russia the centerpiece of his early effort at foreign policy. His embrace of Putin meant withdrawing support for the Chechens, which implied the beginnings of a break with the Saudis.

9/11 sealed the deal, and we began to attack Saudi funded insurgencies all across Asia, we gave Russia the green light to do what they will with the Chechens, and we began the dance in South Asia, where we use our ability to hold India back as our hammer against Pakistan.

Our Islamic strategy which made some perverse sense in the waning days of the Cold War, when we were losing our confidence and our enemy seemed unstoppable, but it took on a life of its own even once its purpose was gone. Jihad as a means of projecting Western values was always a dubious proposition, it was more a case of setting fire to the neighborhood when you think the battle is almost lost. You only think you can control the direction of the blaze, but you can't.

Morality is in short supply in foreign policy, but this does not mean it has no place. Quite the contrary. The fact that we deal in imperfect humanity, the fact that we deal with flawed regimes and imperfect nations means it is an absolute necessity to keep a close grip on your moral purpose. If you do that you can bring good out of a murky and dangerous situation. But if you lose track of your principles you are lost, and you may become the proxy of your proxy.

And this is the story of the US in the nineties. We became the proxy of our proxies. We lost the grace that comes from clarity. And our proxies found ambitions of their own, and turned their weapons on us. They will pay for the mistake, but there is an object lesson in this for any country that aspires to be a moral force in the world. Sometimes you have to fight dirty, but you must never forget why you are doing it, and never lose sight of the dangers of doing it, never lose sight of the larger moral purpose, or you are lost.

[Tailgunner Joe]

CLINTON SCANDALS

[Maria S]

"swarthydude is all US. I ping him to his disgust. He rocks... trust me."

Sincerely, I meant no disrespect! I just was curious, that's all. Curiosity gets me in trouble every danged time!

[not-an-ostrich]

I have read several books and articles on the Balkan mess. I have an above average IQ, but I can't separate the region/states and cultures of the players and the fighting. I basically understand the why is a lot of centuries old issues and separatism. Any suggestions on books?