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Remembering Red victims
The Washington Times ^ | November 30, 2003 | Jeffrey T. Kuhner

Posted on 11/30/2003 2:07:27 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife

Edited on 07/12/2004 4:10:55 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Bonaparte
I'm not disputing a redefinition of the model which puts no state at the right and full state control on the left. However, this is not the traditional spectrum and it is also highly simplified. For example, in the traditional spectrum, you get more state control at both ends where they meet.

Significant Political Differences between Communism and Fascism
Fascism Communism
Racial Purity Idealized Multi-racial (may be anti-semitic)
Nationalist (i.e. Italian) International
Animist or Atavistic spiritualism Atheist and/or idealizing of "human" spirit only
Distortion of ethnic history Distortion of economic history
Stressing land and race Ideological vs. visceral (i.e. "better living through economics")
Dictator is first of the race, always essential. Dictator is temporary figurehead on march to economic justice.
Industry is independent partner Industry is fully state managed
Property is owned by powerful individuals Property all owned by state (but managed by individuals)
Communism is considered biggest evil Fascism is considered biggest evil
Manipulates individual on basis of his ethnic membership Manipulates individual on his class station

There are considerable differences. But to gloss over the distinctions is naive and disrespectful to the millions that have died as a result of both evils. And they are very different, appealing to human pruriences of starkly different types.

Consider for a moment what Japan's signature on the Tripartite agreement of 1937 was all about. Realize that Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo were equally terrified of the communist threat, which stood poised to overtake European and Asian nationalist ambitions and to usurp their hold on the national psyches of their citizens.

Fascism and communism are horrifically and historically very different. And the traditional model of communism and fascism wrapping around the spectrum at totalitarian ends is not going to go away because a few political scientists want to simplify it.

21 posted on 11/30/2003 4:33:48 AM PST by risk
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To: Cincinatus' Wife; Grampa Dave; backhoe; Enemy Of The State; Squantos; Travis McGee; veronica; ...
bump for Cincinatus' post of http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1094 in-thread: ``In 1917, Lenin's political slogan wasn't "Socialist Dictatorship! Firing Squads and Gulags!" It was "Bread, Land and Peace."''
22 posted on 11/30/2003 4:51:25 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
Do not equate fascism only with nazism. Fascism has existed in other times and places and has had its own peculiar "flavors" (all of them bitter) that don't entirely correspond with your table. The same can be said for communism.

I must reiterate what I said before, namely, that business was not "independent," not free to go its way, in nazi Germany. It had as much freedom of movement as was convenient for Hitler at any given time. Otherwise, he told them what to do and they did it.

From Forgotten Communism by Alain Besancon...

    ONE OF the great successes of the Soviet regime was to promulgate and, eventually, to impose on the world its own ideological understanding of how political systems should be classified. Lenin reduced them essentially to two polar opposites, socialism and capitalism, a dichotomy preserved by Stalin until the 1930’s. According to this scheme, capitalism, also known as imperialism, included in its purview liberal, social-democratic, and fascist regimes, as well as National Socialism. A different scheme emerged in the 30’s to accommodate the new Soviet policy of building "popular fronts." Now the spectrum ranged from socialism—that is to say, the Soviet Union—through the bourgeois democracies (liberal and/or social-democratic), to, finally, fascism. Grouped together under the last category were Nazism, Mussolini-type fascism, the authoritarian regimes of Spain, Portugal, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and so forth, and extreme right-wing factions in liberal societies.

    Whatever the specific typology, Nazism in these schemes was erased as a category unto itself, and attached definitively either to capitalism or to right-wing fascism. It became the absolute incarnation of the Right, while Soviet socialism represented the absolute incarnation of the Left. In this way Nazism and Communism took their respective places in the great magnetic field of 20th-century politics.

    To appreciate the sleight of hand involved, one need only recall that to an earlier generation of historians, it had been perfectly clear that both Italian fascism and German Nazism had socialist roots. Thus, Elie Halévy’s classic History of European Socialism (1937) devotes a chapter each to the socialism of fascist Italy and the socialism of Nazi Germany. (The latter, indeed, had explicitly declared itself to be anti-capitalist.) Then there is the no less compelling scheme proposed as early as 1951 by Hannah Arendt, who spotlighted the essentially consanguineous nature of Nazism and Communism that I remarked upon at the outset, and divided these two representatives of modern totalitarianism from liberal and authoritarian regimes alike.

    So great was the triumph of the Communist definition of reality, however, that even today it remains deeply embedded in historical consciousness. French high-school and university textbooks, for example, still "read" the political spectrum from Left to Right, going from the Soviet Union on the Left, to the liberal democracies (with their own Lefts and Rights), to the various fascisms (German, Italian, Spanish, and so forth). This is but an attenuated version of what might be called the Soviet Vulgate.


23 posted on 11/30/2003 5:05:04 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Bonaparte
Good points, but it's still important to distinguish the group including NAZIs, Italian fascists, and Japanese imperialists as being distinct from and diametrically opposed to communism. All three had state control at the center of their iron grip on society, all three had socialist-like programs, but all three were nationally, racially, and atavistically centered movements as opposed to ideologically oriented attempts to reorient societies economically.

Glossing over the differences and blurring the similarities is a mistake. It's a natural one for the American right to make since it has been accused of racism, atavism, and coddling of industry. Those are ills we can scarcely afford today, and they do not represent the Republican party's core values. I think you compare the two for a useful result: showing how state power is the net evil both use to victimize humanity; but others may not be so clear in their efforts to neutralize the differences.
24 posted on 11/30/2003 5:13:59 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
They're both bad but the Left tries to make one good.
25 posted on 11/30/2003 5:44:29 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: risk
"...diametrically opposed to communism."

    I can't go along with that, risk. Both fascism and communism are totalitarian. That and all it implies, is what's important here. That is what calls for placing them together at one end of the political spectrum, of a continuum of power-and-freedom. No other spectrum is meaningful. If there are other ways in which they characteristically differ, they can and should be pointed out.

    I see too many oversimplifications in your table. For instance, property in nazi Germany was not restricted to powerful people only. After Hitler's assumption of power, owners of small businesses continued to own those businesses. But the rights of ownership could be (and often were) snatched up by the state at any time, for any reason. What good does it do you to own a business that you don't control? You may as well be living under communism, since all you're doing is carrying out the state's directives, just like one of Stalin's factory managers.

    Likewise, ethnic cleansing is not confined to fascist regimes. Look at what the communist Chinese did to the Mongols.


26 posted on 11/30/2003 5:45:01 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: risk
how old are you, I notice that you are very recent to this forum?

I'm 65 so I have a vivid memory of WW-II and the rowen of communism and a studied history of National Socialism from the end of WW-I...rto
27 posted on 11/30/2003 6:44:56 AM PST by visitor (dems make it difficult to speak the TRUTH)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
“...the road to Utopia goes through Golgotha.”

“...Stalin systematically starved to death about 10 million Ukrainian peasants.”

“Millions of Cambodians were slaughtered by Pol Pot.”

“...led to the deaths of more than 20 million Chinese. Many of the victims were children who were eaten by starving peasants.”

This will forever be the face of “Progressive Politics” to me. As Churchill said, “Never forget. Never surrender.” To do so leads to being lined up by a large hole with a small hole put through your head, or worse (those unfortunate children).
28 posted on 11/30/2003 7:44:06 AM PST by NewRomeTacitus (Communism seeping around the baseboards. Caulked it up with "Reaganite".)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Thanks to all of you for this thread and your ideas. I'm saving this for my homeschool government class.
29 posted on 11/30/2003 7:44:39 AM PST by Red Boots
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To: Bonaparte
Bonaparte -

Your explanation of how private property was treated under fascism is on target. Hitler alowed private ownership and tolerated capitalism provided the private property owner carried out the will of the state. This is the essence of fascism - state control of private property.

Our own country is riddled with fascists in the so-called environmental movement. The use of the endangered species act, smart growth and other state mandated controls over property is the essence fascism. People who support these property thefts under the guise of so-called environmentalism are as culpable as the Germans and Russians who supported fascism and communism.
30 posted on 11/30/2003 8:03:27 AM PST by sergeantdave
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Good article. But if you compare Stalin to the abortion lobby in America, the soviet butcher does not look so bad. Some estimates put the number at 20 millions executed soviet citizens, but not everyone was innocent; you have to substract from this number the war traitors, spies, murderers, rapists, thieves, criminals. Yes, the death penalty was common in the Soviet Union. I am not defending the comunists, I am just providing some facts.

In America, how many innocent babies have been brutally executed before they could see a ray of sunlight, since 1973 ? They didn´t have a chance to run, to escape. They didn´t see the criminal abortionist.

I imagine that people in the Soviet Union during Stalin era must have known that if they criticized or conspired against the leader they would be persecuted. At least they kney where Stalin stood, the innocent babies don´t know at all why they are being killed.

Stalin could have been a monster, but he was against abortion (some people think that he was anti-abortion to replace the people he executed).

http://www.roevwade.org/
31 posted on 11/30/2003 9:21:27 AM PST by Spartano
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To: Bonaparte
Hey, Boanaparte - nice to see you around. Here's one of my favorite quotes, right form the horse's mouth, so to speak:

"The Party is all-embracing. It rules our lives in all their breadth and depth. We must therefore develop branches of the Party in which the whole of individual life will be reflected. Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the Party as the representative of the general good. There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual belongs to himself. This is Socialism - not such trifles as the private means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the Party, is supreme over them, regardless whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper..."

 

"The people about us are unaware of what is really happening to them. The gaze fascinated at one or two superficialities, such as possessions and income or rank and other outworn conceptions. As long as these are kept intact, they are quite satisfied. But in the meantime, they have entered a new relation; a powerful social force has caught them up. They themselves are changed. What are ownership and income to that? Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings."
Adolph Hitler - Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction pp 191-193

In the end, there was little to differ from the de jure socialism practised by the Soviets and their imitators and the de facto socialism of the Nazis. The former was class-based, the latter, race based. Their outcomes were similar in avery respect - mass murder, enslavement and impoverishment.

32 posted on 11/30/2003 10:04:49 AM PST by Noumenon (I don't have enough guns and ammo to start a war - but I do have enough to finish one.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Lenin said if he had to kill 9 out of 10 citizens to maintain communism - then so be it.

All for an ideology that is flawed and useless.
33 posted on 11/30/2003 10:05:15 AM PST by The Raven
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To: Bonaparte
You're making a syllogistic error in stating that because A includes aspects of B it therefore must be the same as B. Communism and fascism have similarities but they are different beasts. Your left=government, right=no-government model is oversimplified. While it fits your immediate ideological needs, it will not be adequate for most serious discussions of political science. No equivocation can prove that Naziism is Communism, or that both are "left wing" in any model except your specific definition. I have already stated that such a definition puts the advocate in danger of defending the potential ills of the American right wing, of which there are just as many as are on the left. No position on any political spectrum can lessen the danger government (or the lack of it) may bring to a society. There is no easy formula such as "stay on the right and you'll always be correct." Even on your spectrum, anarchy is at its extreme right.
34 posted on 11/30/2003 4:49:14 PM PST by risk
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
ping
35 posted on 11/30/2003 4:58:25 PM PST by chmst
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To: Cincinatus' Wife; Bonaparte
They're both bad but the Left tries to make one good.

This is profound. As Horowitz observes, American leftists now denounce Stalinism and Maoism, but fail to recognize the fact that all other forms of communism lead to the same result.

36 posted on 11/30/2003 5:07:14 PM PST by risk
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
a book by written by a comtemporary liberal has a chapter entitled, "J---S was a liberal".

seems that his logic is a bit flawed. HE was not a murderer, a liar, or a thief. So, how could he have been a liberal?
37 posted on 11/30/2003 5:50:28 PM PST by ripley
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
bump
38 posted on 11/30/2003 5:52:40 PM PST by VOA
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To: risk
Fascism and communism are horrifically and historically very different. And the traditional model of communism and fascism wrapping around the spectrum at totalitarian ends is not going to go away because a few political scientists want to simplify it.

Don't you think that it is the ultimate simplification to arbitrarily categorize the Communist and National Socialist ideologies into the "Left" and "Right" categories that have meant different things every 50 years ever since the terms were coined during the French Revolution?

In 1820's Europe, a member of a Masonic Lodge praising the Constitutional form of government was considered a radical Leftist and the United States of America was considered the most Left-wing nation on the Planet.

During the fall of the Soviet Union, the American Liberal media labelled the Soviet Communist die-hards as "Right-wing".

Originally, "Right" wing meant a supporter of absolute monarchy by divine right who denied the very existence of sovereignty deriving from the consent of the governed.

"Left" wing originally meant a supporter of the individual Liberty.

Now, Left vs Right traditionally mean whatever the political writer wants it to mean.

The same America Liberal media that labelled Ronald Reagan as "Right-wing" because he was "Conservative" in wanting to preserve traditional American values and was extremely anti-Communist saw no irony whatsoever in labelling the Soviet die-hards during the fall of the Soviet Union as "Right-wing" because they were "Conservative" in wanting to preserve traditional Communist values.

If you traditionally define "Right" vs "Left" as State Absolutism vs Individual Rights and Liberties, the both Communism and National Socialism are Right-wing ideologies.

The absolute monarchs of the ancien regime may have invoked "By the Grace of God" and used "France/Britain/Spain" as the boggeyman. The Communists may have invoked "For the Benefit of the Proleteriat" and used "the Capitalists and the Fascists" as the boggeyman. The National Socialism may have invoked "For the Fatherland" and used "the Jews, the Communists and the Liberal Democracies" as the boogeyman.

However, those are all merely rationilizations for exactly the same political bottom line: Absolute power by a political oligarchy that is maitained by force of arms.

Same Church. Different pews.

That, of course, makes most of us on Free Republic traditional Left-wingers which is, in the original meanings of the terms, where the United States has always been since someone got the bright idea to label all political ideology through the prism of the seating arrangement of the French Estates General.

39 posted on 11/30/2003 6:31:34 PM PST by Polybius
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To: risk
such a definition puts the advocate in danger of defending the potential ills of the American right wing, of which there are just as many as are on the left.

Uh, really.

No position on any political spectrum can lessen the danger government (or the lack of it) may bring to a society. There is no easy formula such as "stay on the right and you'll always be correct." Even on your spectrum, anarchy is at its extreme right.

The emerging spectrum does not exist to supply answers, only to better categorize different ideologies. The old spectrum, with fascism/Nazism on the extreme right and Communism on the far left was not a spectrum at all, instead a circle that leads to totalitarianism no matter which direction you travel, with the only implied solution being to take the middle ground. That is, of course, absurd, because Centrism is usually an illusion since there is no real neutral ground in political disputes oftentimes.

The new spectrum, with anarchy (complete lack) on the extreme right and totalitarianism (complete presence) on the extreme left is the only logical spectrum for all of the political ideologies possible. Minimalist government, existing for few but important reasons and being viewed as a 'necessary evil' that needs to be kept in check at all times, is closer to the extreme right than to the extreme left. The spectrum only ranks ideologies and does not endorse a 'solution,' mainly because different people disagree about what the exact problems to be solved with government intervention are. Therefore, the spectrum never implies that the solution is on the furthest extreme of either of the wings. Nor does it explain why and in what ways government power is employed (in a theoretical sense of allowment) the further you go to the left; only that it is increasingly employed.

Communism and Fascism, then, may be different beasts, but they are still beasts of the same nature of inclination where the spectrum is concerned.

40 posted on 11/30/2003 6:32:09 PM PST by MitchellC
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