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Who set the precedent granting amnesty to illegal aliens? Blame Pres. Ronald Reagan
Congressional Record, 7/21/01, Pg. S8039-S8041 ^ | 12/12/03

Posted on 12/12/2003 1:00:50 PM PST by Wolfstar

President Ronald Reagan was the first president in history to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. On November 6, 1986, he signed into law the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986, [PUB L 99-603]. In so doing, he set a precedent whereby the United States would not seek to deport illegal aliens, but to reward their lawbreaking by granting them full citizenship.

Following is a brief excerpt from lengthy remarks by none other than Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W-VA), speaking on the senate floor in July 2001 against proposals for another amnesty [DOCID:cr23jy01-105]:

Such an amnesty suggests that it is possible to gain permanent residency in the United States regardless of whether you are an alien who arrived here legally or illegally.

That is the message that was sent in 1986 when President Reagan proposed a blanket amnesty to 2.7 million illegal immigrants based largely on the mere fact that they had lived in this country at least since 1982. I supported that amnesty, after accepting the arguments of the Reagan administration that such an amnesty would reduce illegal immigration when combined with tougher sanctions on employers who hire illegal aliens.

What happened instead, was that the United States sent a message to the world that illegal immigrants could gain legal status in the United States without having to go through the normal processes. Consequently, illegal immigration jumped from an estimated 5 million illegals in 1986 to somewhere between 7 million and 13 million illegals today--and these estimates do not even include the 2.7 million illegals who were granted amnesty in 1986. [END EXCERPT]

The following paragraph is an excerpt from an April 29, 2002 editorial by The Eagle Online, further detailing the damage done by President Reagan's precedent:

President Reagan tried a similar status readjustment as part of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. The idea that this might diminish the problem of illegal immigration by taking the onus off of law enforcement to seek out the illegals and deport them had such broad appeal, even Pat Buchanan liked it at the time. But these newly legalized residents brought with them new problems, while exacerbating the old ones. Not only did they desire reunification with many relatives who had not yet crossed the border, they raised hopes for other prospective border-crossers who assumed—correctly, it now seems—that they might get in on another amnesty sooner or later. [END EXCERPT]


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alien; aliens; amnesty; bush; illegal; immigrant; immigration; reagan; reaganaliens; reaganamnesty; reaganillegals; reaganimmigration; reaganman; reaganmexican; reaganmexico
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Despite the fact that most FReepers probably consider the signing of the 1986 immigration reform act to be among his worst mistakes, most FReepers would also agree that Ronald Reagan is among the greatest U. S. presidents ever.

There are positives and negatives in all human endeavors — even the very best of them. When confronted with the possible occurrence of what one considers a negative policy move, the wise participant in civic affairs does not do the political equivalent of stamping his or her feet like a child with a temper tantrum (i.e., well, that's it for me, I'm never going to vote for him again).

Instead, one does everything possible to influence policy. We are not helpless children. We are adults with the ability to write letters, make phone calls, contribute to PACs and organizations that lobby for our point of view, and so on.

And, most importantly, we should have the good sense not to be reactive, single-issue voters, but to weight both the positives and negatives of any elected official, and those of his opponent, and vote accordingly. How many of us, if given the miracle of a chance to vote for Ronald Reagan again, would not do so because he shortsightedly signed that act in 1986?

1 posted on 12/12/2003 1:00:51 PM PST by Wolfstar
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To: Wolfstar
Well done.
2 posted on 12/12/2003 1:04:00 PM PST by leadpencil1 (Neds Atomic Dustbin)
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To: Wolfstar
I bet President Reagan would not make the same mistake twice.
3 posted on 12/12/2003 1:08:33 PM PST by ambrose
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To: Wolfstar
I don't recall Regan bloating social government programs the way W has.
4 posted on 12/12/2003 1:10:22 PM PST by Bikers4Bush (Bush and Co. are quickly convincing me that the Constitution Party is our only hope.)
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To: leadpencil1
Kill your television..
5 posted on 12/12/2003 1:10:41 PM PST by Bikers4Bush (Bush and Co. are quickly convincing me that the Constitution Party is our only hope.)
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To: Wolfstar
No one is perfect. Even Ronnie. His good far out weighed his bad. I will have a toast to the Gipper.
6 posted on 12/12/2003 1:11:59 PM PST by JackDanielsOldNo7 (On guard until the seal is broken)
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To: Wolfstar
Yeah, sure why not. CFR, bloated pork barrel budgets, amnesty for illegals, nation-building, kowtowing to China and slapping down Taiwan, all is forgiven.

And since he won't be running for reelection after 2004, he won't be pandering to his base supporters like he has in the first 4 years. /sarcasm
7 posted on 12/12/2003 1:14:55 PM PST by CO_dreamer
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To: Wolfstar
Reagan later admitted that it was one of the biggest mistakes of his two terms.
8 posted on 12/12/2003 1:19:24 PM PST by RJS1950
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To: Wolfstar
How many of us, if given the miracle of a chance to vote for Ronald Reagan again, would not do so because he shortsightedly signed that act in 1986?

Of course I wouldn't. One should learn from the past. "Shortsidedness" is now 18 years old.

As Tancredo said, the Republican want cheap labor, the Democrats want votes.

I think this is "true," but limited. Both Republicrat factions are dominated by corporate interests that understand that Americans' wages are "costs", and costs can be cut by undermining the wage market. Naturally if the illegals were CEOs and accountants the borders would be shut down pronto. Market power and "free" trade is not for the little people. Bush can pass a huge corporate welfare bonus for drug industry and bar the little guy from buying the same drugs cheaper in Canada. Go figure.

People endlessly cite how the Republicrat immigration policy of destroying the low end labor markets (now reaching IT personnel and other middle classes), is not good for the economy in the long run, or for the people short or long. So what? IN the short term the owners and officers of certain industries gain money. They in turn contribute to candidates, they create think-tank front groups that shape the debate and foment arguments that appeal to left and right wing prejudices and assumptions.

It's about money for certain people...who can afford for their policies to prevail and dominate. Both parties are complicit.

The candidate that explains the truth to American citizens most effected, disproportionately Hispanic and Black, without racist overtones wins the next election hands down if he comes from a major party. Pym Fortuyn showed the power of this strategy, gaining 20% of the Dutch vote for a previously non-existent party - with strong immigrant backing. The idea that "Hispanic" citizens want mass immigration is untrue.

So as for Reagan, if he tried it twice, darn right I'd call him on it.

9 posted on 12/12/2003 1:28:49 PM PST by Shermy
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To: Wolfstar
Can you white wash Bush with a comparison to Reagan? The voters were not split 50/50 in his day and in danger of illegals tipping the scale forever left in this country, and there was a landslide for Reagan. Bush has slapped conservatives in the face during his first four years in office. I shudder to think what he can manage when he isn't worried about being re-elected.

There was alot at stake when Reagan made his little mistake. That little mistake has balooned to the point that nothing he accomplished can offset the damage he did. So no, the answer is I wouldn't vote for Reagan now if given the chance and the hindsight.
What's at stake now is beyond human language to express.

As bad as I hate them, Demonrats could never have gotten the damage done that Bush has. The Congress, Senate, and the general public wouldn't have tolerated it.
10 posted on 12/12/2003 1:30:24 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Wolfstar
My single issue is illegal immigration which encompasses:

1) Sovereignty
2) National security
3) Social security
4) Medicare "$1 billion for illegals
5) Welfare (food stamps, WIC,housing,all Free to illegals)
6) Education (schools are too crowded)
7) English ( the US is quickly becoming the "tower of babel"
8) Infrastructure (highways are overcrowded)
9) Enviromental issues
10)Lawlessness (the word illegal explains it. Latino Gangs, smugglers, ect.

Consider me a single issue voter.

11 posted on 12/12/2003 1:31:00 PM PST by texastoo (What a Continent!!! (sarcasm))
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To: Wolfstar
How dare you print facts......be logical.....and please do duck and cover!
12 posted on 12/12/2003 1:31:01 PM PST by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: Bikers4Bush
President Reagan spent $3 for every $1 coming into the treasury.

To pay for lowering the marginal tax rates he raised taxes on corporations....I believe $200,000,000 was the amount.

13 posted on 12/12/2003 1:32:05 PM PST by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: Wolfstar
Thanks for post. This was one of his real bad mistakes.
14 posted on 12/12/2003 1:36:49 PM PST by lilylangtree
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To: OldFriend
All well and good but I still don't recall Reagan bloating a single government social program the way Bush has fed Medicare.

15 posted on 12/12/2003 1:38:31 PM PST by Bikers4Bush (Bush and Co. are quickly convincing me that the Constitution Party is our only hope.)
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To: texastoo
You forgot rapists next to #10.

As in the 5 illegals that gang raped that woman in New York. I'm sure she'll be glad to hear that thousands like them will soon be legalized.
16 posted on 12/12/2003 1:40:05 PM PST by Bikers4Bush (Bush and Co. are quickly convincing me that the Constitution Party is our only hope.)
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To: Wolfstar
I've been seeing more of this kind of defense of W's maladinistration: Reagan = Bush.

Uh, no. I knew Bush wasn't Reagan the day he paid the Communist Chinese ransom money for the return of our servicepeople and disassembled super-secret aircraft. And it's gone downhill since then.
17 posted on 12/12/2003 1:48:42 PM PST by warchild9
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To: Wolfstar
Is that really true? I believe FDR (warning: I have garlic and a crucifix and several wooden stakes) authorized the/a bracero program that allowed Mexican laborers into the US during the 2nd World War (the war that that man and his hideous wife knew was about to start but did nothing to block the sneak attack) to do work the work that Americans in uniform could not do. I thought some were allowed to stay with some sort of permanent status.

That President Reagan blundered is no reason to excuse the failure of President Bush to defend the nation against the invading Mexican illegal alien criminals who are striping the wealth of American property owners and sending it back to Mexico where Presidente Fox and his PANista thugs skim a share.

18 posted on 12/12/2003 1:56:19 PM PST by Tacis
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To: Wolfstar
President Reagan made a serious mistake by granting amnesty to illegal aliens back in 1986. Given an opportunity to correct such a decision, I highly doubt, Reagan would do it again.

PresBush has the passing of time working to his advantage. He shouldn't be considering amnesty to illegal aliens under any circumstances and especially not after the events of 9-11.

Amnesty isn't a smart option for PresBush.

When you take Bush`s signing of the CFR bill into law, his increasing education spending like never before, okay`ing the largest farm subsidy bill ever and then last week, approving the largest government entitlement program in 38 years, adding amnesty to that list of wrongheaded centrist policy, won't gain him any support among his conservative base. It may gain him some moderate support and will defintiely lose him some conservative votes in 2004.

19 posted on 12/12/2003 2:06:02 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: RJS1950
I agree. It was. In fact, I think it was the worst mistake of his presidency. But that doesn't diminish the respect I have for President Reagan's overall record.
20 posted on 12/12/2003 2:46:44 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: OldFriend
Hi, OldFriend. Thanks for dipping into this thread. I know from long experience in local politics here in the greater Los Angeles area that the people who make up the permanently disgruntled contingent on the Right are a relatively small fringe. They are pretty ineffective under the best of circumstances, so I don't trouble myself over them. Nevertheless, if the Congress does pass an amnesty bill and the president signs it before the election, I believe it may very well cost him re-election.

I believe Ridge's trial balloon the other day was meant to see just how stiff the opposition might be. So the point of this thread is actually to encourage people to get off their duffs and ACTIVELY express their opposition now, while there is plenty of time to influence policy. Sitting around on FR posting mindless nonsense (e.g., Post #10) doesn't accomplish anything constructive.

21 posted on 12/12/2003 2:59:32 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: Wolfstar
True statement on Regan greatly influencing illegal immigration to the BAD!

We are STILL burdened with a HUGE illegal crossing of the AZ and CA borders.

No doubt whatsoever that someone from the Middle east could easily handle a three day trek through the Az desert and get into this country with men and arms.

Bush has been as effective in stemming the flow of illegals as Clinton.


22 posted on 12/12/2003 3:04:52 PM PST by Kay Soze (Conservative voting for Bush soley to deny a Dim from office is by definition RINO. I am now a RINO)
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To: Wolfstar
Yes. You are right. But how can any of us vote for anyone who 17 years later, wants to repeat Reagan's mistake?

No amnesty this side of the border!

For a discussion of immigration issues, see Immigration & The American Future.

And remember, also, when Reagan proposed the one-time amnesty, it was not coupled with increased Welfare type benefits, rather proposals to move in the opposite direction. Washington, today, is awash in incredibly expensive vote buying schemes, that Reagan would have had no truck with. These draw the worst class of immigrant, and place an ever increasing burden on the backs of Americans whose only active roots are in this land.

William Flax

23 posted on 12/12/2003 3:06:30 PM PST by Ohioan
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To: Bikers4Bush
Bush Basher! LOL
24 posted on 12/12/2003 3:06:58 PM PST by Kay Soze (Conservative voting for Bush soley to deny a Dim from office is by definition RINO. I am now a RINO)
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To: warchild9
Since you are the 2nd person who perceives this post as an attempt to say Reagan equals Bush, I'll take this opportunity to say you are mistaken. That is not my point at all. Rather, it is this:

Ronald Reagan established the precedent of amnesty. Even some diehard Leftists like Robert Byrd (let alone most of us on the Right) now see it as a huge mistake. Understanding that even the best of presidents can make such mistakes, rather than sitting around whining online, the wise voter will find a way to actively express his or her opposition now, while there is still time to influence policy. There are, of course, a variety of ways to do so, but I'm sure I don't need to provide you with a list.

25 posted on 12/12/2003 3:07:47 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: Kay Soze
Well! Tom Ridge and John McCain will put a stop to that at once!!!
26 posted on 12/12/2003 3:08:33 PM PST by gipper81
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To: Tacis
Yes, it is absolutely stone-cold true that President Reagan established the precedent of granting amnesty to illegal aliens. And you are right that, Reagan's blunder should not excuse President Bush should he sign a similar amnesty bill. However, he has not, yet. And there is still plenty of time for folks like you and I to influence policy be actively writing and/or phoning members of Congress, senators, and the White House. We can also join/support any of the lobbying groups who oppose amnesty, because they can amplify our voices.
27 posted on 12/12/2003 3:11:58 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: Reagan Man
Amnesty isn't a smart option for PresBush.

I agree. Nothing I have posted should be misinterpreted as my agreeing with an amnesty policy.

28 posted on 12/12/2003 3:13:51 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: Wolfstar
That's what I did this week. I phoned Senator McCain's office and told those jokers I would NEVER vote for McCain again (in response to the USSC ruling).
29 posted on 12/12/2003 3:18:14 PM PST by gipper81
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To: Ohioan
But how can any of us vote for anyone who 17 years later, wants to repeat Reagan's mistake?

The equation that every voter makes to determine how to cast their vote is highly personal. Nevertheless, the smart voter will weight the positives and negatives of a candidate's entire record, AND those of the candidate's opponent.

For myself, as a Californian, I'm adamantly opposed to any form of amnesty for illegals. At the moment, this policy is still in the trial-balloon stage, so I'm doing everything I personally can to try to influence the various politicians who might want both my vote and my campaign contributions. Having said that, I also will have no qualms whatsoever about voting to re-elect President Bush. In my opinion, the positives of his presidency far, far outweight the negatives.

30 posted on 12/12/2003 3:23:18 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: gipper81
Good for you. If we did that in the millions, the politicians would definitely take notice.
31 posted on 12/12/2003 3:24:19 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: CO_dreamer
I predicted yesterday that activist FReepers would follow the party line and start shilling for amnesty. They will spin it into an inevitable, positive move. Here we go.

By not enforcing and ignoring immigration laws, the plan was to make the situation so bad, that an amnesty program would be accepted, as better than the current situation.
32 posted on 12/12/2003 3:30:30 PM PST by At _War_With_Liberals (It's more than a lib/con thing- All 3 branches of govt colluded to limit the 1st amendment)
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To: Wolfstar
Nothing I have posted should be misinterpreted as my agreeing with an amnesty policy.

I for one, haven't misinterpreted nothing you'e said, but its quite obvious why you posted this thread and worded it the way you did. You're making a preemptive move, in advance of any possible amnesty that PresBush may decide to offer illegal aliens in the future. I know it, you know it and now everyone else knows it too. One problem, it won't work. If PresBush offers amnesty to illegal aliens, it will not only tarnish his legacy, but could seriously jeapordize his re-election effort or at the very least, have a negative effect on the level of a voter mandate he may have received without offering amnesty. ;^)

33 posted on 12/12/2003 4:02:38 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: Reagan Man
As I said previously, I believe that if the Congress passes and President Bush signs any form of amnesty for illegal aliens prior to the election, it may very well cost him the election. And of course my post is preemtive. That's the whole point — to remind people that even the best of presidents can make big mistakes, and to encourage people to actively contact memebrs of congress, the White House, and anti-amnesty lobbying groups.
34 posted on 12/12/2003 4:11:19 PM PST by Wolfstar (Ronald Reagan Freedom Man)
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To: Wolfstar
I understood what you were doing. Some people may not have. Since you didn't mention PresBush in the main part of the thread, or in your opening reply, I found that very odd. RE:#10 said it well. You can't compare Reagan with Bush and leave it at that. You can't have your cake and it it too. Which is what you where doing.

If PresBush continues to press the envelope, he may find himself out of a job. After all, before 9-11, 80%-85% of American's were opposed to amnesty and I don't think thats changed in the last two years. Unlike CFR, the education bill, the farm subsidy bill and prescription drugs, Bush won't be stiffing conservatives if he extends amnesty. He'll be ignoring the vast majority of American's and walking on very thin ice.

35 posted on 12/12/2003 4:36:51 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: Wolfstar
Then it's time to set a new precedent and stop this amnesty BS NOW!
36 posted on 12/12/2003 4:44:31 PM PST by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: Bikers4Bush
Reagan gave the dems social programs in exchange for money for the military. We were left with a deficit.....which I don't consider problematic.

About the medicare prescription plan. Did it occur to you that by allowing prescriptions there is a good possibility that hospitalizations, now paid for by medicare, may be avoided.

The plan is optional and it cannot be assumed that ALL seniors will want to take advantage of the offer. They may have better plans of their own.

37 posted on 12/12/2003 4:45:08 PM PST by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: Reagan Man
"Bush won't be stiffing conservatives if he extends amnesty.

Are you sure?

I disagree totally.

If Bush extends the Reagan granted amnesty he will remove the republican party from the White House.

38 posted on 12/12/2003 4:55:56 PM PST by Kay Soze (Conservative voting for Bush soley to deny a Dim from office is by definition RINO. I am now a RINO)
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To: Wolfstar
With all due respects, illegal aliens back in 1986 weren't the criminals/terrorists that they are now.
39 posted on 12/12/2003 4:59:13 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: Wolfstar
Immigration poll:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/
40 posted on 12/12/2003 4:59:51 PM PST by skeeter (Fac ut vivas)
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To: Wolfstar
Oh my. Thanks for this.
41 posted on 12/12/2003 5:01:12 PM PST by ladyinred (If all the world's a stage, I want to operate the trap door!)
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To: Wolfstar
I will not vote for President Bush if he grants amnesty to illegals.
42 posted on 12/12/2003 5:07:56 PM PST by k2blader (Jesus: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
"With all due respects, illegal aliens back in 1986 weren't the criminals/terrorists that they are now."

Maybe true but they know full well that the precedent has been set.

And set by a strong strong once in a lifetime conservative.

Do you think they they'd believe that less conservative men would pass/extend another amnesty?

The illegals are clearly operating under the belief that we will extend it.

The numbers accelerated after amnesty was granted.

43 posted on 12/12/2003 5:10:19 PM PST by Kay Soze (Conservative voting for Bush soley to deny a Dim from office is by definition RINO. I am now a RINO)
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To: Kay Soze
>>>I disagree totally.
If Bush extends the Reagan granted amnesty he will remove the republican party from the White House.

I don't see what you disagree we me about. My next line says it all and goes beyond conservatives and the Republican Party.

"He'll be ignoring the vast majority of American's..."

That's a death wish for anyone.

44 posted on 12/12/2003 5:12:52 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: Reagan Man
correction: "... disagree we with me about."
45 posted on 12/12/2003 5:14:41 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: Reagan Man
ACtually, most voters OPPOSE amnesty.
The issue is that the RNC does not want to alienate Hispanics as they become a greater voting block.
Instead of shutting the boarders and expelling the illegals, the GOP is selling out the country, and pandering to the left. (Go read Alien Nation)
Eevn beltway Neocon Bill Kristol has admitted that Hispanic immigration is forcing the country to the left.
Unless we can close the borders and Americanize immigrants, we are lost as a country.
46 posted on 12/12/2003 7:34:08 PM PST by rmlew (Peaceniks and isolationists are objectively pro-Terrorist)
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To: rmlew
You're preaching to the choir.
47 posted on 12/12/2003 9:29:51 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: rmlew
Hello, I'm confused! I thought after 9-11, they did close the border with Mexico, didn't they? I do remember that even Pres. Fox in Mexico was really disappointed that he wasn't able to get GWB to work with him for awhile on immigration, but was willing to wait. Well now I don't see where they are the greatest friends now, and that was one of the issues! I've also read that Pres. Bush was not talking about a 'blanket amnesty', but a much smaller one on a case-by-case basis, wasn't it? But what I read on here now, is that he's just letting people swarm over the border and come swarming into the country!

Number two, I thought that there were border patrol people, and military people down there trying to catch illegal aliens as best as they could, aren't they? And one thing that no one wants to talk about is that Bill Clinton/Al Gore let hundreds if not more come in and 'get legal', just in time for election! But I don't see anyone blaming any of them for it! No, they act as if it is GWB, and him only, who is doing this!

I also think that the leftists in this country are making mischief among the conservatives; trying to divide them! And if we stay divided, squabbling over this one issue, they will succeed in taking us over! I'm really surprized and disturbed by some of the things people are saying on here tonight!
48 posted on 12/12/2003 10:07:19 PM PST by dsutah
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To: Wolfstar
The amnesty for illegal aliens and the highly ramped up War on Drugs, were the only two things that he really got wrong and at least, in the case of the amnesties, he later admitted that it had not worked. I should mention that I supported him in both cases, which means that I was wrong in both cases, too. It should be pointed out that neither the amnesties nor the War on Drugs constituted anything that could even remotely be construed as subverting or attacking the Constitution.

Reagan's policy mistakes were exactly and no more than that - honest mistakes. In all cases, Reagan tried to do his sworn duty, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. His only mistakes were minor mistakes in methodology, that stayed well within the bounds of Constitutional limits.

Every President has made at least a few mistakes. Most were honest mistakes. I even forgive Jimmy Carter for his numerous mistakes. Even though he wasn't all that bright, politically, I believe that he really did his best. His best just wasn't all that good. He was really trying to do good and his mistakes were honest mistakes, just as were Reagan's mistakes.

However, a few Presidents have made policy decisions that went far beyond the simple mistake category. Klinton's attempts to subvert the Constitution were too numerous to count. Fortunately, the GOP led Congress managed to stop his almost every attempt to do so. Dubya, on the other hand, has not made nearly as many attempts to subvert the Constitution. But unfortunately, due to the tendency of the Republicans in Congress to rubber stamp the initiatives of a Republican President, he has been successful in each of those cases. Dubya has made a few honest mistakes, too (at least I assume they were honest) and for those, I can forgive him. But, just as I can never forgive klinton for his many attempts to subvert the Constitution, I can never forgive Dubya for his successful subversions of the Constitution.

Mistakes in methodology can be corrected, by the next President, as Reagan showed, after taking over from Carter. But, when the Constitution is subverted, as Dubya has done, the damage is much more permanent and is not easily repaired, if it can ever be repaired, at all. Both Reagan's and Carter's mistakes were honest mistakes and should be forgiven. Klinton's and Dubya's attempts to subvert the Constitution were intentional attempts to increase the power of government and by extension, their own power and such actions should not be condoned by any freedom loving American, regardless of party affiliation.

As Americans, when we go into a war, we have certain standards that we believe in and adhere to. Even while the Germans and Japanese were mistreating and even killing many of our POW's in WWII, we stuck to our standards and whenever the people overseeing our prison camps went too far, we didn't wait for Germany or Japan to complain. We punished the offender(s) ourselves. As Americans, we expect more responsibility from our troops and we hold them accountable, sometimes even going overboard, in the process (ex: LTC West). But, the point is that we expect more from our own and then hold them accountable.

I use the POW analogy, because as Republicans, we aspire to a much higher standard than the Rats and for that reason, when one of our own goes too far, we should be the first to take him to task and prove that if our's is a double standard, it's because we hold our own to a higher standard, not a lower standard. By allowing Dubya a pass, for succeeding at what we derided klinton for trying, we are effectively saying that our standards are only for other people and don't apply to Republicans. If we don't apply our standards equally, we become no better morally, than the Rats, albeit with a better fiscal and military policy.

We forgive Reagan his honest mistakes and should likewise forgive Carter, his honest mistakes. We called klinton to account for his attacks on the Constitution and should likewise hold Dubya to account for his attacks on the Constitution. Anything less, does a terrible disservice to the GOP and takes away from us the most important thing that separates us from the Rats - our moral high ground.

 

49 posted on 12/12/2003 11:17:04 PM PST by Action-America (Best President: Reagan * Worst President: Klinton * Worst GOP President: Dubya)
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To: Action-America
Hrmmmm... if you really believe Carter was an honest man after all his screechingly leftist defense of every petty dictator around the world in the last couple years, I dunno, you're seeming a bit gullible to me. The internationalization of the Panama Canal was his baby, and it was one of the highest priorities of the Soviet Union at the time. To be honest, I think Carter was for morst intents and purposes not far different from a KGB mole. He certainly has extreme far left ties, and has actively praised Kim Jong Il, Castro and many other communist dictators. I mean, what does it take?

Qwinn
50 posted on 12/12/2003 11:40:07 PM PST by Qwinn
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