Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Massachusetts Gun Laws Turn Store Full of Customers into Cowering Targets*
Worcester (MA) Telegram and Gazette (owned by New York Times Publishing) ^ | 12/16/03 | Williamson

Posted on 12/16/2003 7:39:23 AM PST by pabianice

Shootings always surprise

People never expect eruption of violence

WORCESTER, MA --Here are some things we can count on when an unexpected act of violence breaks out in our back yard:

The assailant is invariably described by those who know him as a nice, mild-mannered guy who would never be capable of doing such a thing.

Witnesses are always shocked - absolutely shocked - because they watch such violence on television but never expect to see it themselves.

"My God," an employee of Lowe's was telling me yesterday, two hours after a gunman opened fire inside the sprawling home improvement warehouse and shot two people. "Everyone here is absolutely shocked. You see stuff like this on television all the time, but you never expect it in your back yard."

In Spencer, meanwhile, David Anderson was reacting to news that a man he knows - his daughter's brother-in-law - allegedly drove to Lowe's in his Chevy pickup truck and shot two people with a semi-automatic handgun.

"He always seemed very nice and polite and mild-mannered," said Mr. Anderson of the man who allegedly compiled a hit list of people to kill. "This is completely out of character, to say the least. But who really knows why someone would do something like this?"

Cliches are cliches for a reason - they're steeped in truth. No one expects to see a bloodied shooting victim stagger into the frame of a department store security camera in broad daylight. But such a video was shown to police yesterday as they searched frantically for Mark Lebreton of Auburn, alleged shooter and widely considered nice guy, who was described as "extremely dangerous" last night by Auburn Police Chief William E. Stone.

"We believe him to be very, very dangerous," Chief Stone said. "He said he'd kill any police officer who stopped him."

Chief Stone said Auburn police were alerted moments before the shooting by Mr. Lebreton's brother, Oxford police Officer Kevin Lebreton, who reported that his 38-year-old brother was armed and suicidal. As police began to respond to that report, they heard on the police scanner that Worcester police were rushing to a shooting at Lowe's that involved a white pickup truck. Chief Stone said police were aware that Mr. Lebreton drove such a truck; they went to his home on Boyce Street, blocked off the street and brought his distraught wife to police headquarters.

According to Lowe's employees, Mr. Lebreton drove to the store shortly after 4 p.m. and could be seen on the security camera entering through the lumber area. He was dressed in jeans, snow boots and a knit cap and was wielding a handgun. He allegedly walked into the commercial sales area and confronted Steve Collins, a plumber and subcontractor for Lowe's, who reportedly had done some work for Mr. Lebreton, a contractor who owns Lebreton & Son. The men engaged in a heated argument because Mr. Collins reportedly wanted to end their business relationship.

Four people, all employees, witnessed all or part of the shooting. The store's surveillance film shows one of the victims, a young employee named Jim Walling, stagger into view and fall to the floor with a gunshot wound to the shoulder. Seconds later, Mr. Collins is seen holding his neck and then falling in front of a cash register. Mr. Lebreton then allegedly walked calmly from the store and drove off in his truck while shocked customers screamed and headed for the exits.

"If you didn't know that two people had just been shot, you'd never know from watching him," an employee said. "He was very calm and almost nonchalant." Mr. Lebreton also reportedly had made out a "hit list" that contained several names, but it was not clear last night whether Mr. Collins was on the list.

Mr. Walling is expected to survive his injury. Mr. Collins was in critical condition last night. Eight shots in all were fired by the assailant, in full view of customers and staff, 10 days before Christmas, in a store that sells faucet washers and lightbulbs and two-by-fours.

"Everyone here is very jumpy," the Lowe's employee said. "This happened almost two hours ago, and my heart is still pounding right now."

As police continued their search for Mr. Lebreton last night, those who know him said they couldn't reconcile the violent incident with the good-looking, friendly contractor who rarely raised his voice and seemed to enjoy his work.

Mr. Anderson said Mr. Lebreton, along with Mr. Lebreton's brother, Brian, helped him build a garage for his Spencer home a little more than a year ago.

"He did an excellent job, and you could tell he knew what he was doing," Mr. Anderson said. "He just seemed like a normal, happy fellow. I never even heard him swear, and I never heard anything but good things about him. This is totally out of his character, big time. Why would he do this? This is really a shock."

Chief Stone said Mark Lebreton had a "run-in" several months ago with a neighbor that appeared to be resolved, but was otherwise not known to police. Chief Stone said he met yesterday with Brian Lebreton, who could offer no motive or explanation for his brother's alleged violence.

"He had absolutely no idea why he would do something like this," Chief Stone said.

We've heard it before, haven't we? Someone snaps and everyone is shocked. And somewhere else, perhaps soon, maybe at another store not typically meant to host a hail of bullets, we'll most certainly hear it again. And there's nothing we can do but count on it.

Dianne Williamson can be reached via e-mail at dwilliamson@telegram.com.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Massachusetts
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-84 next last
"Shootings always surprise ... People never expect eruption of violence..."

A huge warehouse store filled with hundreds of customers, all reduced to targets by Massachusetts' most punative gun laws in the country.

What a foul nest Liberals make.

1 posted on 12/16/2003 7:39:23 AM PST by pabianice
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: pabianice; Admin Moderator
Can't view the source without registering, but I'm guessing here. You changed the title, right?

2 posted on 12/16/2003 7:42:34 AM PST by .38sw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

Gun control - the criminal thug's and crazed shooter's best friend.

3 posted on 12/16/2003 7:43:22 AM PST by Eris
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
Someone snaps and everyone is shocked.

It doesn't surprise me that the shooting was at Lowes. These stores have the most ignorant, incompetent and indifferent employees of any major home improvement chain I have ever seen. They make up for what they don't know with a blank stare or rude rebuke. Not that this justifies shooting, it doesn't. But the management of Lowes is one of the best examples of how not to run a store that deals with the construction trade. As a contractor, I only send my people there as a last resort.

4 posted on 12/16/2003 7:55:36 AM PST by elbucko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
Wallng's reaction to being shot in the shoulder may be an interesting illustration of what Massad Ayoob says about shooting injuries in situations like this - unless you concentrate, your mind falls into the patterns its seen on TV of how people react to being shot, and follows them to the letter.

He mentions the story of a cop who negligently discharged his firearm while drawing from his holster during a training exercise, and shot himself in the thigh - the cop collapsed in a theatrical heap, and it turned out that he'd only nicked the tissue of his thigh, and there was no physiological reason for him to react in that way.
5 posted on 12/16/2003 8:03:40 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
Gee I don't know. Yes the laws are strict, but you canget a CCW . I know, Ilive in Mass (unfortunately) and I have a CCW. Just because none of those 300 or so customers chose not to carry a gun, doesn't mean they weren't allowed to. Even though I have a CCW, I rarely carry.
6 posted on 12/16/2003 8:07:44 AM PST by cpst12 (Tax and spend democrats versus borrown and spend republicans...which is worse?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
Inre Lowes: ..in a store that sells faucet washers and lightbulbs and two-by-fours.

That is the same as saying Saddam was evil because he kicked his dog, a little understatement. (Yes, I work at Lowes)

7 posted on 12/16/2003 8:09:57 AM PST by zip
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cpst12
Did you hear about the police chief of Lowell, Massachusetts complaining that women, in reaction to an at-large serial rapist, who were coming to the station and begging for permission to possess pepper spray were "arming themselves to the teeth," having made that statement with a Sig-Sauer semi-auto high-capacity 9mm handgun strapped to his hip?

Do you think that that particular police chief ever finds adequate "good cause" to issue a CCW to any of the residents of Lowell?

Reading that in the newspaper was the point at which I firmly resolved NEVER to live in the state of Massachusetts.

8 posted on 12/16/2003 8:18:37 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: *bang_list
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
9 posted on 12/16/2003 8:26:19 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mvpel
The entire logic of civilian disarmanent as reflected by the fascist in Lowell is that the citizenry not have the means to defend themselves against either criminals or agents of governmental tyranny. I am quite sure people such as the cheif fascist of Lowell find such events as the Lowe's incident to be deeply satisfying as the desire is for the citizenry to be reduced to helplessness. Virtually all government 'training' programs dealing with crime or terrorism given to non law enforcement personnel emphasizess that the citizen should do NOTHING to defend himself but try and be observant to provide the law enforcement personnel with useful details when, and if, they show up after the event. Government wants citizens to be passive, non-paticipatory serfs to be fleeced and ordered about for the benefit of the insider cliques who government serves. The attitudes of the upper leadership of law enforcement are simply a more brazen varient of this general governmental attitude.
10 posted on 12/16/2003 8:33:57 AM PST by robowombat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Eris
"Gun control - the criminal thug's and crazed shooter's best friend."

Yes, gun control, and the refusal to accept responsibility for your own preservation.

11 posted on 12/16/2003 8:35:21 AM PST by Redbob (this space reserved for witty remarks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: zip
There is a "Lowes" in the town my buddy lives in, along with 2X4's and faucet washers they also sell Remi 870 shotguns, Winchester rifles and the ammo that both require. On the other hand depending on who was brave enough a hardware store has many self defense options, a circular saw blade can do nasty things when used as a frisbee,a bit of duct tape wrapped around the safety mechanism of an air nailer give you a nice semi-automatic flachette launcher, and nothing beats a nice 5 gallon bucket of Muriatic (hydrochloric) acid.


12 posted on 12/16/2003 8:46:03 AM PST by MD_Willington_1976 (Happy Holidays Freepers...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: cpst12
Just because none of those 300 or so customers chose not to carry a gun, doesn't mean they weren't allowed to.

The deterrent effect of firearms ownership and carry is a psychological effect. Where the carrying of arms is relatively unrestricted potential criminals "know" it is more likely that someone else is carrying who will fight back.

"An armed society is a polite society."

In Mass. it may be possible to legally carry but everyone, goblins included, know it is unlikely. The general mentality (known to all,) from the popular press and the gooberment on down, in states like Mass. is the mentality of "victicrat", "surrender monkey" and "sheeple." Obviously not shared by all, as we have many Mass. FReepers, that is the political norm; the "culture de jure."

"Resistance isn't futile; it's gauche."

13 posted on 12/16/2003 8:53:04 AM PST by TigersEye (Better a Shrub than a Pissweed!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
Where were the police? So much for their police state protecting them. Stupid liberals will never get it.
14 posted on 12/16/2003 8:54:47 AM PST by m1-lightning ("You sure got a talent for trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious. ")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cpst12
I live in Mass (unfortunately) and I have a CCW.

Well as long as you've opened up the subject;

1. Why do you have a CCW? Are you in law enforcement or some special case?

2. Massacusetts is not a "shall issue" state. How easy is it for the average law-abiding citizen to get a permit?

3. How many people do you know have a CCW, other than law enforcement types?

Just because none of those 300 or so customers chose not to carry a gun, doesn't mean they weren't allowed to.

Are most of these customers really "allowed to", or is Joe Citizen with a CCW just a rare exception - somebody to be kept from having a CCW?

P.S. (check out the tag line)

15 posted on 12/16/2003 9:02:44 AM PST by Gritty ("The Constitution shall never prevent peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms"-Samuel Adams)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: MD_Willington_1976
Or a hoe, chopping axe, hoe handle/axe handle/shovel handle, 1/2" breaker bar, a chair, piece of 3/4" conduit, oak molding, etc., etc.

Pointing to his head: "The weapons are all in here. The rest is just hardware".

16 posted on 12/16/2003 9:15:44 AM PST by Hardastarboard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: elbucko
It doesn't surprise me that the shooting was at Lowes. These stores have the most ignorant, incompetent and indifferent employees of any major home improvement chain I have ever seen. They make up for what they don't know with a blank stare or rude rebuke

I've never been in a Lowes' but that's been my experience at the local Home Depot.

17 posted on 12/16/2003 9:19:27 AM PST by .38sw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: m1-lightning

Massachusettes is a "may issue" state. Local law enforcement can restrict whoever they want based on their records.

18 posted on 12/16/2003 9:19:52 AM PST by m1-lightning ("You sure got a talent for trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious. ")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: mvpel
Having pepper spray is "armed to the teeth"? And you need PERMISSION to carry pepper spray? Gawd.
19 posted on 12/16/2003 9:20:34 AM PST by .38sw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: zip; elbucko
Maybe you guys should talk it over.

....................What?

20 posted on 12/16/2003 9:25:09 AM PST by Skooz (If everyone knew everything about everyone, no one would have anything to do with anyone)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: .38sw
"Gawd" was the least of my reaction. I personally concluded that that police chief is likely destined for the First Round of the Seventh Circle right downstream from the rapist, as a tyrant, boiling in blood up to his eyebrows.

In other words, I was outraged.

21 posted on 12/16/2003 9:34:59 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: mvpel
The police chief is not only a tyrant, he is an arrogant fool. He belongs in the First Round of the Seventh Circle, as you said. Anyone who would deny a woman the right to protect herself from a rapist belongs there. As a resident of California, I am unable to get a carry permit, but I cam and do carry a nice little folder. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.
22 posted on 12/16/2003 9:42:41 AM PST by .38sw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: m1-lightning
Where were the police?

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I've never heard of a donut shop getting robbed.

23 posted on 12/16/2003 9:56:57 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
I've lived in Mass. They've passed so many gun laws and been subjected to so much propaganda that the majority of people react with horror to guns. They've developed an exaggerated fear and awe of firearms. Mass is more like England than a part of the US.
24 posted on 12/16/2003 10:34:24 AM PST by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Israel!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MD_Willington_1976
You nailed it (pun intended).
25 posted on 12/16/2003 10:46:22 AM PST by zip
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Dead Corpse
but I've never heard of a donut shop getting robbed.

Of course not,,,it's full of cops.

26 posted on 12/16/2003 10:51:06 AM PST by SCDogPapa (In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Skooz; elbucko
Everyone has had bad experiences at some store at some time but that doesn't excuse it. I retired from state gov't 5 years ago with experience with managing up to 120 employees so I know a little about mgt. At the Jefferson City Lowes, any employee acting that way would be dragged through hot coals, or have finger nails ripped out (figuretively speaking). Elbucko, have you discussed this with the store manager. I know it would bring results at most of our stores. Give it a try.
27 posted on 12/16/2003 10:57:45 AM PST by zip
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
You've heard the cliche, "It's always in the last place you look." If you found it the first place you looked, ou will have found it in the last place you looked, as there is no reason to continue searching for something that you have already found.

You need to look at the cliche, "It's always the quiet ones that snap" in the same manner. It's always the quiet ones!

The ones that are loud, foul mouthed, drunk, disorderly, anti-social, and make a habit of waving a weapon around, are already in jail.

The average person is, well, average, like the vast majority of us. We know that we wouldn't go out and start shooting people so it shocks us when someone so similar to us does.

Prayers go out to all involved.

Sergio
28 posted on 12/16/2003 11:03:56 AM PST by Sergio (...but mine goes to 11.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: m1-lightning; cpst12
Darn, beat me to it, but there is a world of difference between "may issue" and "shall issue" NYC is a "may issue" jurisdiction, and no one except a few celebrities get a carry permit there.
29 posted on 12/16/2003 11:13:11 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: claudiustg
I've lived in Mass.

My sincere condolances

They've passed so many gun laws and been subjected to so much propaganda that the majority of people react with horror to guns.

Exactly. There is a reason that fat Teddy keeps getting re-elected. The reason being that he accurately reflects the viewpoint of the majority of the electorate, freedom hating, government, loving, tax sucking marxists who are too cowardly to accept responsibility for their own well being and envious of those who do.

30 posted on 12/16/2003 11:18:35 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: MD_Willington_1976
2 16 oz. Estwing Claw hammers.



The first to get his attention with a solid toss.


The Second to open a hole in his skull.
31 posted on 12/16/2003 11:48:27 AM PST by hobbes1 ( Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: m1-lightning

32 posted on 12/16/2003 11:49:16 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Dead Corpse
LOL! Well, I'll still give some respect to cops. There was one that called in on the radio show in Peoria that said he supported CCW because he admitted that police couldn't be on every street corner and can't drive the speed of light.
33 posted on 12/16/2003 12:16:42 PM PST by m1-lightning ("You sure got a talent for trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious. ")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
If the story is accurate, by the way, there's not a damned thing an ARMED citizen could have done unless they happened to be standing right next to the action.

The guy shot 2 people and left.

So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back? In his truck?

This kind of thing happens all the time, and will continue to happen regardless of CCW in any State.
34 posted on 12/16/2003 12:21:09 PM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Shooter 2.5
bump for later

ps, Great Graphic!

35 posted on 12/16/2003 1:03:17 PM PST by ibheath (Born-again and grateful to God for it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: ninenot
Your point is a valid one. Here in TX, if the perp is attempting to flee, and poses no immediate threat to inflict bodily harm on you or others, you cannot use deadly force to stop him. You could order him to drop the weapon, but I'm sure this happened so fast, nobody had a chance to do anything. He was probably out the door before people could react. Now if you draw on him to defend yourself and he raises the gun towards you, he's fair game. The guys who got shot probably didn't have time to defend themselves, even if they did have a gun. If the shots were fired at very close range, some kind of martial arts would have come in handy, but it sounds like this guy unloaded on them (8 shots fired). A CCW holder more than likely would not have prevented these guys from getting shot. The only thing CCW would have done to prevent this is to be a deterrent to a criminal. Unfortunately most of the time, the criminal is not thinking about himself, and has no regard for the consequences. Like I said, CCW can act as a deterrent, but it's never going to stop the crazies from doing stupid acts.
36 posted on 12/16/2003 1:48:32 PM PST by tx4guns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: cpst12
I lived in Massachusetts, just a few miles down to road from that Lowe's. I had a class A CCW that allowed large capacity magazines. I took an NRA course, applied to (and got fingerprinted by) the Police Department, and got my license in about 6 weeks. Simple.
37 posted on 12/16/2003 1:55:40 PM PST by IonInsights
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Gritty
1. Why do you have a CCW? Are you in law enforcement or some special case?

Just because I wanted one, and no, I am not in law enforcement.

2. Massacusetts is not a "shall issue" state. How easy is it for the average law-abiding citizen to get a permit?

Can't answer for anyone but myself...went down, filled out application, got pictures taken and voila. Guess it may help to live in the still rural part of the state (Western mass). I am sure it is not as easy everywhere; perhaps I falsely assume that it still possible *most* towns if you are "clean."


3. How many people do you know have a CCW, other than law enforcement types?

I never ask anyone, so I don't know.
38 posted on 12/16/2003 2:22:55 PM PST by cpst12 (Tax and spend democrats versus borrown and spend republicans...which is worse?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: hobbes1
Yeah no kidding, you should see what I did to my left index finger with my 20oz ripping hammer, almost took the end of my finger off with it when I was framing. A couple stiches later and its all good.
39 posted on 12/16/2003 2:26:42 PM PST by MD_Willington_1976 (Happy Holidays Freepers...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
And there's nothing we can do but count on it.

Nothing we can do?!! Arm yourselves!!

40 posted on 12/16/2003 2:28:01 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Shooter 2.5
Now THAT is cool!
41 posted on 12/16/2003 2:32:20 PM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Maelstrom; jdege
The graphic is courtesy of jedge and the laws are courtesy of the NRA.
42 posted on 12/16/2003 2:36:31 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Shooter 2.5
The NRA has certainly been a help in getting these laws passed, but the primary effort has been by local gun-rights supporters in each state.

There simply is no way any D.C.-based lobbying group could do what has been done on this issue - push legal reform in every state, constantly, over decades.

It takes real grass roots - not astroturf.

43 posted on 12/16/2003 2:47:40 PM PST by jdege
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: jdege
The NRA has clinics as to how to start grass roots organizations.

Our grassroots organization was given matching funds to get started in Oak Park, Illinois during the handgun ban.

When the opposition starts to name any other group other than the NRA, I'll pay attention to those groups.

Thanks for the graphic.
44 posted on 12/16/2003 2:53:00 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: ninenot
So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back?

Yes.

In his truck?

Even better. Makes hauling off his dead carcass easier.

This kind of thing happens all the time, and will continue to happen regardless of CCW in any State.

Of the 31 "Shall Issue" states, can you cite one example of something like that happening?

45 posted on 12/16/2003 3:07:28 PM PST by garybob (More sweat in training, less blood in combat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: ninenot
If the story is accurate, by the way, there's not a damned thing an ARMED citizen could have done unless they happened to be standing right next to the action.

That's true.

The guy shot 2 people and left. So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back? In his truck?

Yes, I'd have dropped him, either in the front or the back or the side, whichever shot presented itself. If someone commits a shooting, an axing or a knifing and leaves with the weapon, the legal presumption is that he is on his way to commit another murder, and you are allowed to shoot him. It's a very clear exception to the "can't shoot a felon who's leaving" rule. These psychos often have a little list in their head. "After Lowe's, my old job. Then Mom's. Then the ex-wife."

This kind of thing happens all the time, and will continue to happen regardless of CCW in any State. I think the stats show it happens a lot less in states with CCW, that there is a clear dropoff in incidence. These guys are out to settle a score, and not get dropped in their tracks, (at least not before completing their "mission.")


46 posted on 12/16/2003 3:59:05 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: tx4guns; Beelzebubba; ConservativeLawyer; Joe Brower; wardaddy
I don't know about TX, but in FL the law is different. There was a famous workplace shooting case in Miami 15 years ago. A nut rode up to an engine repair shop on a bike with a shotgun slung on his back. He killed 4 or 5 folks, slung his shotgun, got on his bike and rode away.

Some guys from another business across the street heard the shooting and saw the guy leave. They jumped in a car, got next to the man with the shotgun slung on his back, and shot him to death from their car.

This led to a lot of education on this point of the law for us. The DA said that since the guy had just used the weapon to inflict bodily harm, and still had it, he presented an immediate danger to the public even though his weapon was slung and he was riding away on a bike.

Who knows who his next victim might be? Nobody is obligated to find out. He still had the weapon, and the 2 civilians made a "good shoot" and got kudos all around, from the cops to the mayor. (They were worried at first and came up with a cock and bull "accidental discharge/warning shot" story first to cover themselves. No need. They were not even booked.)

I think the situation in Mass is the same. The perp had just used the gun, and still had it. He's fair game, because the presumption is that he could use it again at any moment to kill the next person he saw.

47 posted on 12/16/2003 4:08:42 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee
I think if one is armed and in the presence of someone killing another person that it's reasonable to assume that one may use deadly force to stop it unless that person is a cop.

That Miami story reminds me of the crackhead bank robber who rode his bicycle to the bank armed with a fake gun and with a manhole lid strapped to his chest as makeshift body armour. He was caught fleeing the bank on the bike making a rather slow getaway burdened with the 90lb manhole lid and the red dye spewing bag of money.
48 posted on 12/16/2003 4:18:10 PM PST by wardaddy ("either the arabs are at your throat, or at your feet"...at our feet today obviously..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: hobbes1
never bring a hammer to a gunfight...

teeman
49 posted on 12/16/2003 4:20:19 PM PST by teeman8r
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: wardaddy
Now that's a mental image!
50 posted on 12/16/2003 4:30:00 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-84 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson