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Trailing the Truth About TWA Tragedy
The Albuquerque Journal (subscription required) ^ | December 21, 2003 | Thomas J. Cole

Posted on 12/23/2003 3:31:14 PM PST by CedarDave

Sunday, December 21, 2003

Trailing the Truth About TWA Tragedy

By Thomas J. Cole

Journal Investigative Reporter


    LOS ANGELES— Much of Ray Lahr's life has been about serving his country.
    He entered the Navy during World War II and became a fighter pilot. Later, as a pilot for United Airlines and a safety committee member for the Air Line Pilots Association, he assisted the National Transportation Safety Board in the investigations of eight airplane crashes.
    But last Monday, in a federal courtroom in downtown Los Angeles, Lahr and his government sat at opposing tables.
    Lahr, now retired and living in nearby Malibu, is suing the National Transportation Safety Board for documents related to the crash of TWA Flight 800 off the coast of Long Island, N.Y., shortly after takeoff in July 1996.
    Lahr doesn't believe the safety board's finding that TWA 800 continued to climb for about 34 seconds and some 1,200 to 2,200 feet after an initial explosion.
    The NTSB found that the streak of light reported by witnesses to the crash wasn't produced by a missile but was instead the result of burning fuel during the crippled flight.
    In short, without the crippled-flight theory, the safety board has no explanation for the streak of light reported by at least 258 witnesses to the disaster.
    Lahr believes a missile struck TWA 800 but isn't sure whether it was fired by terrorists or the U.S. military. Military aircraft and water craft were in the vicinity of the crash.
    Olympics and Clinton


    Lahr said a finding that a missile brought down TWA 800 would have affected the Olympics that summer in Atlanta and the presidential campaign.
    "It would have killed the Olympics," he said. "It would have killed the re-election chances of President Clinton. I really think it was a cover-up."
    The former pilot has been trying for more than three years to get the safety board to release more documents and data related to how it came up with the crippled-flight theory. He said he has spent more than $10,000 on the effort.
    "I just feel like I owe it to my country to get to the truth," Lahr said.
    His lawsuit against the NTSB is in its initial stages, and U.S. District Judge A. Howard Matz ruled on only procedural issues at a brief hearing Monday morning.
    But in a small and legally inconsequential victory for Lahr, Matz has noted that Lahr isn't alone in his skepticism in the safety board's finding that mechanical failure, not a missile, brought down TWA 800.
    There are numerous books and Web sites alleging a government cover-up, and about 20 people showed at the court hearing to support Lahr.
    One of those in the courtroom was Lisa Michelson of suburban Los Angeles, whose 19-year-son Yon Rojany died on TWA 800. He was on his way to Italy to try out for the Italian basketball league.
    "People tend to look at you like a 'conspiracist' because you don't buy the accepted line," Michelson said. "But I've never been one to buy the accepted line if it's not right."
    A $30 million inquiry

    TWA Flight 800, a Boeing Co. 747-131, took off about 8:19 on the evening of July 17, 1996. It was en route from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City to Charles de Gaulle International Airport in Paris.
    The plane had 212 passengers and a flight crew of 18. All were killed. The flight lasted just 12 minutes or so.
    There was immediate speculation that TWA 800 may have been brought down by a missile or a bomb.
    The NTSB spent more than $30 million investigating the accident, with some studies conducted by an Albuquerque company. It was the most extensive investigation in the history of the safety board.
    The NTSB found that the probable cause of the crash was an explosion of the center wing fuel tank resulting from ignition of the flammable fuel/air mixture in the tank.
    The safety board said it couldn't determine the source of the ignition but said the source was most likely a short circuit.
    The plane was at about 13,800 feet at the time of the explosion, according to the NTSB. A few seconds after the explosion, the nose portion of the plane— which weighed about 80,000 pounds— separated from the aircraft.
    The safety board said the plane, with its wings still intact, pitched up while rolling to the left, climbing to about 15,000 to 16,000 feet. It then rolled into a falling turn and developed into a fireball, dropping into the Atlantic Ocean.
    The NTSB said the fireball probably began developing about 34 seconds after the fuel tank explosion. That would be about the duration of the reported streak of light.
    "Therefore, the safety board concludes that the witness observations of a streak of light were not related to a missile and that the streak of light reported by most of these witnesses was burning fuel from the accident airplane in crippled flight during some portion of the postexplosion, preimpact breakup sequence," the NTSB said.
    The safety board acknowledged, however, that the crippled-fight theory didn't explain the recollections of 18 witnesses who reported that the streak of light originated at the surface or from the horizon.
    Fighting a theory

    The NTSB said the recollections of those witnesses may have been affected by bad interview techniques or by errors in memory or perception.
    The safety board also said that nearly all of the body of the plane was recovered from the ocean and that there was no damage typically associated with a missile.
    Lahr, 78, a father and grandfather, brought his lawsuit against the NTSB under the Freedom of Information Act.
    He is not only trying to obtain more documents and data but is waging a campaign against the crippled-flight theory.
    His latest document filed in the case includes some two dozen affidavits from experts and others that Lahr said support his belief that there was no crippled flight.
    "The (NTSB) records at issue were conceived and tailored to explain away the eyewitnesses," Lahr said in the document. "The NTSB's science is junk."
    Lahr, who has a degree in engineering in addition to his experience as a pilot and crash investigator, said he believes the left wing of TWA 800 came off after the explosion and that the plane couldn't have continued to climb without the wing.
    Even if the wing didn't separate, Lahr said, the plane would have pitched up and stalled— at best, ascending a few hundred more feet.
    Michelson likens the flight of TWA 800 to a duck that has its head shot off by a hunter. The duck falls; it doesn't continue to climb, she said.
    "I know from common sense that just doesn't make sense," Michelson said. "If it didn't go up, what were the streaks of light?"
    A war over documents

    Michelson said the FBI initially told victims' families that the plane was brought down by a missile. "I believe they were told to turn it into a mechanical failure," she said.
    The NTSB has made many of the documents related to TWA 800 available to the public.
    Lahr is seeking records that would show how the safety board reached some of the conclusions outlined in the public documents. For example, he is seeking the computer program and data used in a NTSB video animation of TWA 800 in crippled flight.
    The safety board, in response to Lahr's requests for additional documents and data, provided him with some records in their entirety and some documents with redactions.
    The board also withheld some documents entirely, arguing that they didn't have to be disclosed because they contained information that was proprietary or information that was related to internal agency deliberations or personnel.
    Boeing, the maker of the 747 that crashed, has also intervened in the case to protect what it says is proprietary information about its aircraft.
    If the lawsuit proceeds, a judge will determine what, if any, documents withheld by the NTSB must be released to Lahr. That could take months, if not years.
    A government lawyer said the lawsuit is about a request under the Freedom of Information Act, not about what caused TWA 800 to fall into the Atlantic Ocean.
    "It is not a case to review the findings of the NTSB," said Jan Luymes, an assistant U.S. attorney representing the safety board.
    John Clarke, a Washington lawyer representing Lahr, acknowledged that the lawsuit has its limits. "The judge can't order the NTSB back to the drawing board," he said.
    That can be accomplished only by public pressure resulting from publicity about the lawsuit and the evidence of a government cover-up, Clarke said.
    "We're not hurting for evidence," the lawyer said. "We've already proved it."

Copyright 2003 Albuquerque Journal



TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: California; US: Connecticut; US: New Mexico; US: New York
KEYWORDS: bomb; conspiracy; coverup; missle; twaflight800
More is getting out in the mainstream press about a possible coverup by the government regarding the TWA disaster. As the article says, "The judge can't order the NTSB back to the drawing board; that can be accomplished only by public pressure resulting from publicity about the lawsuit and the evidence of a government cover-up."
1 posted on 12/23/2003 3:31:15 PM PST by CedarDave
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To: CedarDave
My main quibble with the thought that this was terrorism is this: when was the last time there was a MAJOR terrorist attack that was never claimed by any terrorist group? There are only a few that could have pulled this off, and Al Qaeda is at the top of that list, yet they have never so much as mentioned TWA 800. After I adjust my tin foil hat I am more inclined to say that this is an accidental misfire from a US military source that was covered up to protect the President, and to protect the country from the billions of dollars it would lose in court to the outraged families.
2 posted on 12/23/2003 3:42:56 PM PST by diamondjoe
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To: CedarDave
Another recent thread here:

TWA FLIGHT 800: Pilot takes NTSB to court: CIA lied, expert eyewitnesses come forward

3 posted on 12/23/2003 3:45:57 PM PST by CedarDave (Insted of using the new spel checkr, I'll just tpye as usal.)
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To: diamondjoe
main quibble with the thought that this was terrorism

See: TWA 800 "It wasn't terrorists. It couldn't have been."

ML/NJ

4 posted on 12/23/2003 3:48:46 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: CedarDave
I'm still wondering about the airliner that crashed into New York city shortly after 9/11. They said it just suddenly broke into pieces in the air - tee hee.
5 posted on 12/23/2003 3:54:46 PM PST by TheCrusader
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To: ml/nj
Looks good, to read later
6 posted on 12/23/2003 3:58:08 PM PST by american spirit (ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION = NATIONAL SUICIDE)
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To: CedarDave
payback for the Vincennes shooting down an iranian airliner?

the possibilities are abundant, but the BS is waist deep.

Eisner should hire the CIA to do their amazing cartoons, TWA is gone, and X42 is hiding in harlem. move along.
7 posted on 12/23/2003 4:02:47 PM PST by glock rocks (molon labe)
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To: CedarDave
In short, without the crippled-flight theory, the safety board has no explanation for the streak of light reported by at least 258 witnesses to the disaster.

Modern day version of the Kennedy "Magic Bullet" theory.

8 posted on 12/23/2003 4:09:37 PM PST by Don Corleone (Leave the gun..take the cannolis)
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To: diamondjoe
"I am more inclined to say that this is an accidental misfire from a US military source"

Lot's of conspiracy theorists sit back and claim that TWA 800 was shot down by a US ship by accident. You people never fail to dissapoint me in your low opinion of your armed forces. I've been in the Navy for 20 years now, and stood many a watch in CIC. That you think that we have not the honor or courage to own up to our mistakes is pretty crappy.

During any missile shot, CIC is crowded with people, both participants on watch and those who just want to see the shot. Typically, there are 25 to 35 people in CIC during a missile shot. If YOU were there and saw the accident, would YOU blow the whistle? My guess is YES. Are you somehow better, braver, more honest than all of those sailors? I think NOT.

A cover-up by a very small group of people is possible. A cover-up by the entire crew of a US Navy ship, I don't believe. I hope most here don't believe it either.

9 posted on 12/23/2003 4:10:56 PM PST by ETCS
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To: diamondjoe
I seem to remember reports that a group did in fact claim responsibility.
10 posted on 12/23/2003 4:13:40 PM PST by dinodino
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To: diamondjoe
"My main quibble with the thought that this was terrorism is this: when was the last time there was a MAJOR terrorist attack that was never claimed by any terrorist group? "

July 18, the day of the TWA flight 800 crash, is the day that the Baath Party was founded in Iraq. So, a somewhat subtle calling card was left, possibly by Iraq, or possibly by someone who wanted to 'finger' Iraq.
11 posted on 12/23/2003 4:23:29 PM PST by KamperKen
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Sigh, this again.
12 posted on 12/23/2003 4:24:30 PM PST by Archangelsk (CPL AMEL ASEL I)
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To: CedarDave
TWA 800 has become another cottage industry.
13 posted on 12/23/2003 4:30:24 PM PST by verity
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To: glock rocks
payback for the Vincennes shooting down an iranian airliner?

From the open letter to Boeing and TWA by Cmdr. William S. Donaldson:

1. The Administration knew that in 1996, surrogates from rogue states had access to MANPADS (Man Portable Air Defense Systems) or shoulder-fired missiles in mid-eastern weapons bazaars. $5,000 would acquire the least capable model, the Russian SA-7. $50,000 would buy the most capable, the Chinese Vanguard, a deadly new missile upgraded from US Stinger technology transferred to the Chinese in the early 90's. Superior to the Stinger, this missile has a much longer range. The Administration also knew Iran had a limited number of US Stinger missiles in inventory.

2. The Administration was aware that, worldwide, MANPADS missiles had already claimed 26 civil transport aircraft and was only a matter of time before a U.S. Flag carrier would be targeted and hit. They knew the Administration had dodged a bullet in 1994 when Maryland State Police found a fully armed French Mistral MANPADS missile ready to fire on its tripod directly under a busy northeastern air route.

3. In response to sanctions unilaterally levied against Iran by Mr. Clinton in 1995, Iranian surrogate's car bombed US troops in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and later smuggled MANPADS missiles into the US from across the Canadian border. Iranian officials warned the Administration that they considered enactment of the Iran/Libya Sanctions Act tantamount to an act of war!

4. When Mr. Clinton signed the Iran, Libya Sanctions Act of 1996, a decision was made by the Iranian Supreme Council to approve attacks on major American targets. Terrorist surrogate groups from nine countries were summoned to Tehran to meet with Iranian officials in June of 1996. Later that month, a huge truck bomb was deployed against the US Air Force barracks complex at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. Three weeks later, TWA Flight 800 was shot down only hours after an explicit warning of an attack was received in London and Washington that taunted the President.

5. The White House, the CIA and the FBI were aware of the threat and they knew preventing that attack was their primary responsibility.

6. We can show the Administration anticipated incorrectly that, if the missiles were used, they would be targeted against Olympic air traffic landing or taking off in the Atlanta area.

7. We can provide testimony that immediately after Flight 800 was shot down, Mr. Clinton called an FBI command post supporting the Olympics and informed them Flight 800 was downed with shoulder-fired missiles.

8. The White House, the CIA and the FBI political leadership have waged an unrelenting disinformation campaign from the onset. This has ranged from the White House spokesman stating, "Anyone in government that says this was a missile only has half a brain", and to the CIA cartoon that libeled hundreds of eyewitnesses.

-PJ
14 posted on 12/23/2003 4:32:02 PM PST by Political Junkie Too (It's not safe yet to vote Democrat.)
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To: diamondjoe
A few questions come to mind. What information was there initially that brought the FBI into an airline accident investigation? Normally this is the expertise of the NTSB. In how many airline accidents has the FBI been the lead agency? If after a few weeks it was determined to be a mechanical failure of some nature and not a missle etc, then how come the FBI did not drop out and let the NTSB take the lead? If I remember correctly the FBI stayed to the end. To many unusual events going on. Sounds like a cover up to me. Parley
15 posted on 12/23/2003 4:37:38 PM PST by Parley Baer
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To: Political Junkie Too
sobering.

what's worse, it remains buried.

... as does john doe2, etc.

etc.
16 posted on 12/23/2003 4:41:17 PM PST by glock rocks (molon labe)
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To: CedarDave
I sure wish Condi or someone from her staff were reading this.

She's about the only person who could get to the bottom of this - in about a New York minute.

Regardless, I have given up hope that the truth about FL800 will ever be made public.

17 posted on 12/23/2003 4:52:58 PM PST by japaneseghost
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To: diamondjoe; CedarDave
There have been quite a few discussions about this topic here on FR over the years, and after hearing just about every conceivable theory I've reached one basic conclusion:

IF TWA Flight 800 was brought down by a missile, it was an accidental shoot-down related to naval exercises that were being conducted off the south shore of Long Island that night. It was not caused by any kind of terrorist activity.

I base this primarily on the fact that anyone interested in deliberately shooting down a passenger aircraft flying out of JFK International Airport in New York would not have selected that location to do it -- it was simply too far east, at a point where eastbound flights out of JFK are normally at or beyond the range of most surface-to-air missiles.

18 posted on 12/23/2003 5:17:22 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: ml/nj
That's an interesting thread you linked to. I don't think Michael Rivero hangs around here anymore, but his approach to this topic in that thread was right on.
19 posted on 12/23/2003 5:19:58 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: ETCS
There are some conspiracy theorists who sit back and speculate that maybe it wasn't a U.S. Navy vessel at all -- but a vessel from another NATO country conducting joint exercises with the U.S. off the coast of New Jersey that night.

In a situation like that, I can see why the U.S. Navy might feel a need to "hush up" the incident.

20 posted on 12/23/2003 5:22:34 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: diamondjoe
Al Qaeda has never claimed responsibility for any of their attacks.
21 posted on 12/23/2003 5:23:45 PM PST by cheesebus
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To: cheesebus
Al Qaeda has never claimed responsibility for any of their attacks.

Just what I was about to say. One of the new paradigms of terrorism is that, unlike terrorism of the past, the perps don't require or seek credit. (Another of terror's new paradigms is that the perps don't care if they themselves survive the terror act.) These are examples of what makes this fight against terrorism different and daunting.

22 posted on 12/23/2003 5:36:53 PM PST by gg188
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To: cheesebus
I think the third of three new paradigms of terrorism is that they don't care if they---in fact they SEEK to---kill huge numbers of innocents in genocidal proportions.
23 posted on 12/23/2003 5:39:55 PM PST by gg188
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To: diamondjoe
My main quibble with the thought that this was terrorism is this: when was the last time there was a MAJOR terrorist attack that was never claimed by any terrorist group? There are only a few that could have pulled this off, and Al Qaeda is at the top of that list, yet they have never so much as mentioned TWA 800.

I'll bet that it was Al Qaeda, because it's not their style to claim credit. They never officially claimed credit for the WTC, except through the insinuaitons of Bin Laden on video after the whole world accused them of 9/11.

At the same time, it's quite obvious now that Al Queda has the means and cold bloodedness to murder mass numbers of people.

24 posted on 12/23/2003 6:14:30 PM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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To: CedarDave
The Navy was conducting pyrotechnic maneuvers nearby at the time. Any questions?
25 posted on 12/23/2003 7:16:37 PM PST by Gigantor (You're in America now; Speak American!)
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To: ETCS
Your logic is entirely correct. You base it on your own knowlege of human nature on board a Navy ship.

You could NEVER get 300+ American GIs to "cover up" a shootdown of a civilian airline.

If the Navy were so stupid to try to intimidate that many men/women to cover up a crime of this nature we, and most lucid people, know they would never suceed.

Having said that, there are people on this forum - and this thread - that drop their common sense and logic to believe this could actually happen in this day and age.

And they should know better.

26 posted on 12/23/2003 7:32:38 PM PST by spectre
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To: diamondjoe
My main quibble with the thought that this was terrorism is this: when was the last time there was a MAJOR terrorist attack that was never claimed by any terrorist group?

AQ never "claimed" the WTC '93 bombing. Nor the Cole. Nor Arrow Air, if you find that crash suspicious (or the prominent role of the 101st in Afgansitan), nor AA587, if that was a successful show bomber or a baggage bomb. Throughout history, terror/sabotage attacks were not "claimed" and were also covered up to keep them from damaging morale.

27 posted on 12/23/2003 7:37:17 PM PST by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending)
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To: spectre
The Cruiser USS Normamdy was 185 miles away, near the maximum range of her radars and far beyond the range of Standard missiles . However, we know that there were 3 Navy Subs very near the point of impact . My theory is that we were testing Sub-launched SAMs that night and it went horribly wrong .
28 posted on 12/23/2003 8:07:46 PM PST by Freak Flag
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To: All
You know, I've discussed TWA 800 with people in backgrounds ranging from the military to commercial aviation and all have agreed that it could not have been shot down. Bombed, yes. Shot down, No.

One of the most popular theories is that it was a Stinger, SA-7, or some other IR man portable SAM. Well, the problem with that theory is that these missiles track IR sources. In other words they go after heat and the hottest thing on a 747 would be the aircraft's JT9D engines. If a missile such as a Stinger/SA-7 hit a 747 on its engine, the worst possible outcome out be the engine falling away from the aircraft. Almost all aircraft are designed to have the engine break free from the pylon in the event of a major fire. This will keep the burning engine from causing damage to the wing and igniting the wing's fuel tanks. The aircraft can continue to fly with one engine missing and TWA 800 could have easily returned to JFK with this kind of damage.

Secondly, N93119 (the 747's registration) was well out of the range of a land fired man portable SAM. Also, it was nearing the maximum effective range of the older generation man portable SAM's (the kind terrorists use) if they were fired from directly below it.

Third, others claim it was a U.S. Navy ship that shot down the 747. Well, lets look @ it this way. If it was an U.S. Navy ship, we must assume it was either an SM-1 or SM-2 missile. Other Surface to Air missiles (i.e. Sea Sparrow) are usually carried on aircraft carriers, or non front line ships. That would mean the ship must be an Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate, Spruance class destroyer, or one of the Aegis Guided Missile ships, the Ticonderoga class cruiser or the Arleigh Burke class destroyer.

Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigate:187-287

Spruance Class Destroyer:270-351
Ticonderoga Class Guided Missile Cruiser:364-387
Arleigh Burke Class Guided Missile Destroyer:340-380
Nimitz Class Carrier: 6,000+

Now when these ships fire their SM-1 or SM-2 missiles, not only does everyone on the ship know it but if you don't clear that area of the ship before firing, someone will eat missile exhaust for dinner. Given today’s climate, I don't think the U.S. government could keep that many people quite, even if the person only spoke anonymously. I've spoken @ length with a professor @ my university who is an expert in U.S. Naval history as well as most naval weapons. (If anyone needs proof of his credentials, I’ll post a list of books he has written or contributed to.) He is also of the opinion it would be impossible to hide the fact that a U.S. warship fired a missile @ the same time TWA800 crashed. Someone on that ship would figure it out and blow the whistle.

Some people say “Why would an airliner just blow up in midair?”. Well, two other aircraft have blown up for no good reason. A Philippine Airlines 737-300 suffered a center fuel tank explosion in 1990 and on March 3, 2001, a Thai Airways 737-400 also succumbed to a similar fate. Despite the fact that early evidence pointed to a bomb on the Thai 737, no conclusive evidence to that fact has been found.

N93119 was one of the oldest 747's still in service. Problems with wiring in older aircraft was already well known but no one expected it could lead to a disaster. Also, N93119 sat on the tarmac @ JFK and baked for hours. That day, the center fuel tank only contained a small amount of fuel. Also, the center fuel tank on a 747 sits above the aircraft's air conditioners. The heat from the air conditioning units and from sitting out on the tarmac baking in the summer sun would have resulted in the fuel going from liquid to vapor. Now anyone who has a clue knows that fuel vapor is far more explosive than liquid. Put jet fuel in a bucket and drop a match in and the match goes out. Take a container of fuel vapor and put a match in it and there will be a loud BOOM. It is well within the realm of possibility for an aging, damaged wire to arch and ignite the fuel vapors. The result would be an explosion powerful enough to destroy any commercial airliner.

Then we get into the "eyewitnesses". Eyewitnesses are notorious unreliable when it comes to air crashes. I remember right after USAir 427 crashed how many different stories the eyewitnesses had that were being played on CNN. One claimed the aircraft was on fire. Another claimed the engines exploded, while still another said the engines "popped" and then stopped running. The last one was my favorite. A young woman claimed the aircraft simply stopped in mid air and fell straight down. Now we all know what happened to the aircraft. It suffered an un-commanded rudder deflection, not engine failure, fire, or a total stall. Still, the eyewitnesses claimed this was the case.

The same thing happened with American 587 back on 11-12-01. Eyewitnesses said that the left, right, both, and neither engines were on fire. Some said they heard an explosion while others said they did not. Other people said the right engine fell first from the aircraft while others said the left engine broke loose first. Obviously everyone saw the same event but interpreted it differently.

With the exception of the people who saw a "streak of light" in the sky, there is ZERO proof of a missile. What the people saw was an aircraft explode @ a good distance from their position. Now anyone with ½ a brain will tell you that perception can be distorted by distance. The thing that makes most people who are in the aviation field wary of the conspiracy theories that surround TWA 800 is the fact that all of the so called "evidence" is very weak and almost always can be refuted without much effort.

Those who are skeptical of the conspiracies that surround TWA 800 are that way because most of the theories are so far out there that it is beyond the realm of logic. Some people imply that Klintoon had it shot down because there was someone on board he wanted dead. Others have said it was done because certain foreign military personal were onboard. Why is it so hard to believe that maybe it was simply a mechanical failure that brought down the aircraft?

29 posted on 12/23/2003 9:07:40 PM PST by COEXERJ145
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To: spectre
Then perhaps you could tell us just what you think happened to TWA 800.
30 posted on 12/23/2003 9:26:45 PM PST by Houmatt (Pray for Terri Schindler!)
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To: Houmatt
I have no idea what happened to TWA 800.

It is what is called a mystery.

I do know that anyone who believes over 300 crewmembers of a missile frigate could actually be silenced to cover up the shootdown of an airliner does not have a firm grasp of reality.

31 posted on 12/23/2003 9:34:24 PM PST by spectre
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To: COEXERJ145
With the exception of the people who saw a "streak of light" in the sky, there is ZERO proof of a missile. What the people saw was an aircraft explode @ a good distance from their position. Now anyone with ½ a brain will tell you that perception can be distorted by distance. The thing that makes most people who are in the aviation field wary of the conspiracy theories that surround TWA 800 is the fact that all of the so called "evidence" is very weak and almost always can be refuted without much effort.

In your dreams, pal. The main evidence comes from a photograph, and the eyewitness accounts of 258 people. These people said they saw an object come from the water and strike the plane. If anyone with half a brain does not realize 1) light travels faster than sound, and 2) unless all 258 witnesses were standing on their heads, debris does not fall up, regardless of what the government told them, you have to wonder which half they have, because it obviously is not the thinking half.

32 posted on 12/23/2003 9:36:35 PM PST by Houmatt (Pray for Terri Schindler!)
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To: Houmatt
If you want to wear a tin foil hat, be my guest. I will not without some real proof.

Oh, and that so called "picture" of the missile shows something that looks more like a TLAM or ALCM than a SAM. SAM's do not fly straight and level along the surface of the water and then magically turn straight up at the last moment.

Eyewitnesses are not reliable sources no matter how many there may be. Go back and study several dozen aircraft accidents that have eyewitnesses and you will see each person's story is different and only agree on the general points and rarely on anything specific.

33 posted on 12/23/2003 9:41:22 PM PST by COEXERJ145
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To: COEXERJ145
(snip)Some people imply that Klintoon had it shot down because there was someone on board he wanted dead.(snip)

And we wonder why we are called "wingnuts" and "Far right extremeists". I despise Clinton as much as any other person in their right mind, but please, just damn.
34 posted on 12/23/2003 9:45:14 PM PST by BritExPatInFla
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To: COEXERJ145
Oh, and that so called "picture" of the missile shows something that looks more like a TLAM or ALCM than a SAM. SAM's do not fly straight and level along the surface of the water and then magically turn straight up at the last moment.

The photo shows a missile in flight near a populated area. Last time I checked, doing something like that is a big no-no, as it endangers the lives of civilians. It does not matter what kind it was.

Eyewitnesses are not reliable sources no matter how many there may be.

Gosh, it did not take too long to unload the biggest pile of poppycock, did it? Sorry, guy, but there were 258 people who reported the same thing. This was not some rape in the subway, this was an object coming from below and striking the plane.

If you wish to either call these witnesses liars or believe in your heart of hearts that debris fall up, you can be my guest. But that does not make it reality.

35 posted on 12/23/2003 10:05:52 PM PST by Houmatt (Pray for Terri Schindler!)
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To: Houmatt
My, aren't we hostile tonight. You didn't eat part of that mad cow did you?

:Thinking: Trying to talk aviation with 99% of the population is like trying to discuss religion with an atheist.

36 posted on 12/23/2003 10:52:51 PM PST by COEXERJ145
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To: glock rocks
Well said, and too many people would have been involved in any missile scenario (two is too many) either terror or accident for any solid evidence not to have leaked out. Just one suspect would do it for me. Anyone have any names?
37 posted on 12/23/2003 11:18:16 PM PST by ChEng
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To: COEXERJ145; Houmatt
Most , if not all the folks who subscribe to this theory have never observed a missile launch from a USN ship. I've been involved in many, including shots from Arleigh Burke Destroyers and Ticonderoga Cruisers. In several shots I was in the firing chain as Combat Systems Coordinator. Many steps are taken to ensure a safe range before a launch. Notices are sent prior to the scheduled exercise. ATC's know in advance, and if an air lane passes through the area, the lane is closed. The range is cleared and confirmed GREEN. If anyone fouls the range, the shot will not happen. Even if a missile is in flight, pressing the "Break Engage" VAB will destroy the missile in flight in the case of a fouled range.

Also, the 747 does not resemble the flight profile of any target we would shoot at in an exercise firing. Our targets simulate small radar cross section anti-ship cruise missiles. They either come in very low, nearly skimming the wave tops, low at supersonic speed, or in a steep dive at supersonic speed. Both missiles and targets are expensive, so we have extensive coordination with the range. The ship knows where the target is coming from and we are kept advised of target status. A missile shot is not a test of the crew, to see how they perform tactically. We can practice tactics by placing the system in training. The missile shot is to test the weapons system, either against a new threat, a specific missile against a specific threat or just verifying proper system operation.

As far as an accidental launch, there are two sets of keys (Firing Inhibit Switch and Remote Launch Enable Panel) that must be inserted and turned, as well as a safety switch on each missile canister. I can assure you we are not cruising around US coastal waters with all of these safeties bypassed.

And still, if disaster struck by some unimaginable chain of events, how do you get 300 sailors to ignore what they know is right and lie? It's been over 6 years. Many of these sailors would be civilians now, but no one talks?

38 posted on 12/23/2003 11:53:34 PM PST by ETCS
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