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What's Wrong With the Proposals for a New Guestworker Program?
fairus ^ | jan 04 | fairus

Posted on 01/07/2004 6:12:00 PM PST by VU4G10

Proposals for a massive new "guestworker" program would:

The politicians pushing a guestworker amnesty know that Americans staunchly oppose amnesty, and so they shy away from calling it what it really is, instead cloaking it in terms like "earned legalization" or "normalization of status."  They are deliberately misleading the American public.

THEY SAY that the overwhelming majority of people entering the country illegally pose no threat to our country and that if we allow them enter in a lawful manner, we will enhance our homeland security.

THE TRUTH is that there are an estimated 8-11 million illegal aliens in the United States, and it only took 19 to perpetrate the attacks of September 11.  Our immigration system has become overburdened and unmanageable due to mass illegal immigration.  As a result, there is little reason to feel confident that, absent a massive infusion of new resources, which is highly unlikely given current fiscal realities, anything approaching thorough background checks can be conducted on applicants for a guestworker program.  Even without the added burden of an amnesty, people like Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman, the blind Egyptian cleric who masterminded the first World Trade Center bombing, and Mohammed Atta, the leader of the September 11 attacks, managed to slip through the screening process.  There is every reason to believe that adding new responsibilities to an overtaxed system will make us less safe.

No one has yet explained how the millions of applicants would be given security checks or whether that’s even remotely feasible, given an already overburdened immigration enforcement system. Immigration officials would have to deal with hundreds of thousands of more applicants a year, to say nothing of how we would verify eligibility for any of the eight million potential applicants already here illegally, particularly with many of them armed with false identity documents.  When the immigration system can’t adequately perform its most essential mission, adding in the responsibility for security checks, tracking, and removal when necessary for millions of participants in a guestworker program will guarantee disaster.

THEY SAY that the legislation is not an amnesty, but that guestworkers who participate in the program will be eligible for permanent resident status.

THE TRUTH is that the proposal would be an amnesty with an “apprenticeship” provision.  Illegal aliens who are already in the U.S. would  be eligible to apply.  Thus, they would be excused for having violated our immigration laws in the first place, and then be rewarded again with permanent residency--thus making the law, in effect, a double amnesty.  Calling it something else does not change the reality that this proposal is a massive amnesty program.

THEY SAY the program will help regain control of the borders and stop illegal immigration.

THE TRUTH is that the proposal does nothing to discourage future illegal immigration or enforcement of our immigration laws, ensuring that any guestworker or illegal alien who wants to remain in the U.S. can and will.  In fact, about one-third of illegal aliens in the country right now arrived on legal visas and simply never went home.  In addition, it does nothing to strengthen border security to ensure that only guestworkers, and not terrorists, are being admitted.

THEY SAY that spouses and children of illegal aliens may also be eligible to participate in the visa program.

THE TRUTH is that this would be an amnesty not only for those who qualify for this “guestworker” program, but a simultaneous amnesty for their dependents, whether or not they are workers.  Aside from expanding the amnesty to include non-workers, it also grants a benefit to the dependents of illegal aliens that is not afforded to the families of other guestworkers who never violated the law.  Moreover, it undermines the stated – if flawed – purpose of a guestworker program:  that foreign workers come temporarily and then return home.  Employers would be able to utilize a virtually limitless supply of guestworkers at low wages, while the expense for services like education and health care for dependent family members would have to be picked up by taxpayers.

THEY SAY that an electronic job registry operated through the Department of Labor will allow employers to post jobs and American workers would have the first chance to apply.  Moreover, the jobs would have to be offered again at the end of the three-year period, and that workers’ visas would be renewed only if no Americans are willing to take them.

THE TRUTH is that in the estimation of the General Accounting Office and former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, the provisions in existing guestworker programs that are intended to ensure that American workers get first crack at jobs have been a complete failure.  Even if the political will existed to prevent employers from bypassing American workers in favor of foreign guestworkers – which there doesn’t – the Labor Department does not have the resources to monitor the hiring process.  A federal government that managed to fine a grand total of 13 employers nationwide in 2002 for violating employer sanctions laws cannot be counted on to enforce the provisions of a guestworker program either.

THEY SAY that BSIIA would be a market-driven program that will negate the reasons why employers hire illegal aliens.

THE TRUTH is that under BSIIA, there would not even be a prevailing wage requirement, meaning that employers will be able to offer wages far below what most Americans would be willing to accept, thereby creating an artificial need for guestworkers.  In effect, the law would grant legal sanction to employers who want to hire workers at low wages and limited leverage.  One of the primary purposes of our immigration laws is to prevent employers from undermining wages and working conditions of American workers.

THEY SAY that the program would prevent abuse of foreign workers by affording them mobility and the ability to file grievances against abusive employers.

THE TRUTH is that the mobility of guestworkers would still be very limited and their ability to change jobs would depend on finding another employer who was willing to go through the procedure of posting a job and wading through the bureaucratic red tape.  The primary interest of the workers would be to hold a job for six years in order to qualify for permanent residency.  Moreover, at the end of the “apprenticeship” period, when the guestworker would be granted permanent residency and would gain bargaining power, there is no reason to expect that the employer would not seek another guestworker who is willing to work at below-market wages.

THEY SAY that the program would prevent deaths along the border.

THE TRUTH is that U.S. immigration laws are not responsible for the deaths along the border – it is the violation of our immigration laws that is  responsible.  If there is any culpability on the part of the American government, it is in its failure to deter illegal immigration by aggressively enforcing laws that prohibit illegal aliens from working here or accessing public benefits.  Sending a clear signal that illegal entry to the U.S. will not be rewarded would have the desired effect of dissuading people from placing their lives and safety into the hands of unscrupulous smugglers.  Besides, when the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (BICE) adopted a measure that demonstrably cut down the likelihood of border deaths – by repatriating illegal alien crossers who were apprehended in Arizona to border towns in Texas – the open borders lobby protested, charging that the program was unfair to illegal aliens.

THEY SAY the program will provide workers when and while they’re needed.

THE TRUTH is that when the economy takes a downturn, there will be millions of guestworkers in the U.S. without a job, without a home, without health care, and with no intention of returning to their home countries.  The guestworkers’ unemployment problems become the public’s burden.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; guestworkers; illegalaliens; immigrantlist; mexico; nationalsecurity
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To: Zipporah
"Over 25 percent of federal prisoners are immigrants. Illegals commit 12 percent of felonies, 25 percent of burglaries and 34 percent of car thefts."

Where did you get that data?

As Spock would say, 'fascinating'.
61 posted on 01/07/2004 8:22:12 PM PST by WOSG
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To: eeriegeno
But he is having a problem distinguishing between 'legal' immigrants and 'illegal' immigrants.

People who are currently living here will have to pay a fine before applying to become legal residents (not citizens) everybody else will also have to apply. After we've decided everybody's had a fair chance to get there in act together illegal immigrants don't get to apply anymore.

62 posted on 01/07/2004 8:22:39 PM PST by MattAMiller (Saddam has been brought to justice in my name. How about yours?)
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To: Thumper1960
Smart.... VERY SMART! We need millions more like this person! I am impressed; someone with a Brain in a head up and locked! Eyes wide open!
63 posted on 01/07/2004 8:23:30 PM PST by winker
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To: VU4G10
This is a slap in the face to any American who paid a fine for not wearing a seatbelt. It is a slap in the face to any American doing hard time for having a nickle bag of weed. It is a slap in the face to all those honest immigrants who waited their turn.
64 posted on 01/07/2004 8:23:45 PM PST by djf
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To: dagnabbit
Well there is a way to end chain migration. Abolish it.
Specifically, abolish the adult parents and siblings of immigrants from automatically getting in, or getting at the head of the line.

That's what was in the Jordan commission's report.

What's the status of the support on that?
65 posted on 01/07/2004 8:24:50 PM PST by WOSG
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To: WOSG
Controlled immigration is the key. Knowing who has come into the country, where they're from, what possible diseases they may carry, what links they may or may not have to known terror groups, the whole number allowed in, etc.

The point is not to eliminate immigration. It is to control who comes in and how many to admit. When a nation cannot give an accurate count of the number of illegals in its midst, it is vulnerable to a host of problems. Increased crime, increased burdens on infrastructure, increased burdens on the educational and medical systems...to name a few. It is the failure to enforce laws designed to define national borders that contributes to a loss of sovereignty. Bowing to the demands of foreign states which demand that their unwanted be allowed to cross borders without interference is a loss of sovereignty. The euphemism "guest worker" used to describe this amnesty is a lie cloaked in fancy dress. Those illegals who seek legal status have no loyalty to this country, nor have they pledged fealty to the United States of America. They come for financial and selfish gain...period. Without fealty to this nation and our laws, customs and national and historic traditions, the illegal who comes for selfish purposes carries with him foreign cultures and traditions independent and alien to this nation and its best interests.

66 posted on 01/07/2004 8:27:48 PM PST by Thumper1960
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To: Thumper1960
Your reference to "criminals" caught my eye. I suppose you meant criminals in the sense that they have violated our borders, and in that you are quite right. But the "popular wisdom" that illegal aliens are all noble workers (especially Mexicans)seeking employment in areas in which Americans won't work (promulgated by no less than the president, who also used the euphemism, "undocumented workers", favored by the open borders crowd) can readily be refuted. The fact is, that these people are far from cream of their society. Many are illiterate in their language, hampering them in obtaining even unskilled jobs. Among the "eager workers" are not-a-few criminals who significantly contribute to our crime rate, especially car thefts and burglaries, as evidenced by crime statistics and the number of aliens in California jails and prisons. This, and much more, is a reality. The proposed Bush program will accelerate the influx of more of the same. I support the president for many other reasons but I am disappointed beyond expression at this shortsighted compounding of our illegal immigration problem. Who has been feeding him this stuff? Or worse, was this his idea?
67 posted on 01/07/2004 8:31:48 PM PST by luvbach1
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To: ableChair
One primary condition of the classical definition of sovereignty is "controlling the borders".

My basic point is that a guest worker program is one fashion of controlling the borders. You may like the idea or hate it, but it is a proposal for a law that controls the flow of workers from other countries to the US. That's 'border control'.

As for the numbers of immigrants. You're missing the point. It isn't aggregate numbers that matters here but the rate of immigration vs. our ability to assimilate. No nation in history has ever been able to absorb the staggering numbers (and percentages of it's 'native' population) of immigrants in the time frame we're looking at and still survive intact. It will utterly destroy the country. The rate of immigration to the US is high, but not much different from the rate between 1870 and 1910. The US was not destroyed by that in the least, but grew to the largest economy in the period. American history refutes your claim.

We'll quickly slide to third world status. Listen to me now hear me later. If implemented this is the beginning of the end of the greatest and most powerful nation in human history. Your hyperbole is laughable. Note that first - THE PEOPLE YOU CLAIM THREATEN US ARE ALREADY HERE ... So if this wave of migration is to destroy us, it already should have destroyed us. Hmmm, but it hasnt. Despite all the problems, the costs of it, etc, our country has survived. Perhaps you underestimate the resiliency of USA.

68 posted on 01/07/2004 8:31:51 PM PST by WOSG
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To: Thumper1960
Not really. Illegal immigration does not constitute a loss of sovereignty. We are still a fully sovereign nation, but we have neighbors who arrived outside of official channels, and we have to deal with it rather than ignore it or rant about some fantasy solution which will never happen.
69 posted on 01/07/2004 8:32:32 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: MattAMiller
We have never tried to seal our border.
70 posted on 01/07/2004 8:32:56 PM PST by luvbach1
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To: Thumper1960
Yeaahhhhhh!!!!!!! And don't come back!
What thumper said!
uh, huh, huh; he said "feel tee", uh huh huh.
Just kidding. Great post.

Controlled immigration is the key. Knowing who has come into the country, where they're from, what possible diseases they may carry, what links they may or may not have to known terror groups, the whole number allowed in, etc. The point is not to eliminate immigration. It is to control who comes in and how many to admit. When a nation cannot give an accurate count of the number of illegals in its midst, it is vulnerable to a host of problems. Increased crime, increased burdens on infrastructure, increased burdens on the educational and medical systems...to name a few. It is the failure to enforce laws designed to define national borders that contributes to a loss of sovereignty. Bowing to the demands of foreign states which demand that their unwanted be allowed to cross borders without interference is a loss of sovereignty. The euphemism "guest worker" used to describe this amnesty is a lie cloaked in fancy dress. Those illegals who seek legal status have no loyalty to this country, nor have they pledged fealty to the United States of America. They come for financial and selfish gain...period. Without fealty to this nation and our laws, customs and national and historic traditions, the illegal who comes for selfish purposes carries with him foreign cultures and traditions independent and alien to this nation and its best interests.
71 posted on 01/07/2004 8:33:55 PM PST by ableChair
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To: navyblue
hmmm, here's a question: of your great-great-grandparents (you have 16, unless you are from an arkansas family :-) ), how many were born in the US? How many were born in foreign lands?

For me it is 16 foreign, 0 in America.

"Freedom, Baby!"

72 posted on 01/07/2004 8:35:40 PM PST by WOSG (Freedom, Baby! Yeah!)
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To: luvbach1
Look at it this way. Once we have established a way to normalize those honest and productive immigrants then anyone left scurrying across the desert must be up to no good. It is a good idea to separate out those who want to come for noble purposes and those who do not. Instead of a flood of illegal immigrants most of whom have intentions of working and paying taxes and being productive and honest, it will become a trickle of those who are up to no good.
73 posted on 01/07/2004 8:37:39 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Thumper1960
Absolutely on point. Irrefutable and cogent throughout.
74 posted on 01/07/2004 8:38:15 PM PST by luvbach1
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To: Cultural Jihad
I must say I was shocked a wee bit when the Dean policy flunkie came on TV tonight. She said how bad the Bush plan was for not being real amnesty, not giving the 'undocumented' a path to citizenship, and *then* saying that the 'friends she had which were undocumented immigrants' would not sign up for the guest worker plan but would remain
as illegals.

I was stunned. Dean's top domestic policy guru is cavorting with lawbreakers and thinks nothing of it.

I was fuming, telling myself: Why is nobody asking this woman "Well, as a patriotic American, why are you tellling your 'friends' to go home to their home country and quit breaking immigration law?"

Alas, this was Capitol Report and nobody rose to the challenge.

Illegal immigration, like other crimes (eg consider our drug problems), is not the end of the world, but it is a debasement of our society and culture. We need to end it.
75 posted on 01/07/2004 8:41:25 PM PST by WOSG (Freedom, Baby! Yeah!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
I agree, but we will have to deal with an increase in illegals of questionable motives, as well as noble ones, this program will spur before the flood ever becomes trickle.
76 posted on 01/07/2004 8:43:15 PM PST by luvbach1
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To: WOSG
"My basic point is that a guest worker program is one fashion of controlling the borders. You may like the idea or hate it, but it is a proposal for a law that controls the flow of workers from other countries to the US. That's 'border control'."

I see your point, but makeup on a pig is still a pig. In other words, the key word you used was "controls". If we assume that it actually "controls" non-citizens in a manner conducive to assimilation, you're correct. But by the very proposal I do not believe that to be the case. Even if "guest workers" they're still here and must assimilate; or destroy the culture that is supposed to assimilate them. Your point above can be too easily used as a red herring. The key here is assimilation.

"The rate of immigration to the US is high, but not much different from the rate between 1870 and 1910. The US was not destroyed by that in the least, but grew to the largest economy in the period. American history refutes your claim."

You've missed the point again. I was talking about the projected numbers. Yes, you are quite right, historically the rates were not sufficient to do harm. But that's not what we're talking about in this forum. We're talking about proposals for future policy.

"Note that first - THE PEOPLE YOU CLAIM THREATEN US ARE ALREADY HERE ... So if this wave of migration is to destroy us, it already should have destroyed us. Hmmm, but it hasnt. Despite all the problems, the costs of it, etc, our country has survived. Perhaps you underestimate the resiliency of USA. "

Characterize it as you like, but it's true. Again, you miss the point. I don't think there is any difference of opinion here as much as there is a lack of comprehension on your side. If the rate of immigration exceeds a certain threshhold it will destroy a nation. This has been proven time and again in history. The rate of immigration in the U.S. has never been as high as what we're discussing here.
77 posted on 01/07/2004 8:43:50 PM PST by ableChair
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To: WOSG
Cost of Illegal Immigration
78 posted on 01/07/2004 8:47:31 PM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004 Primary)
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To: luvbach1
Correct.

"Criminals", in that they flout our immigration laws. Wanton disregard for a basic law such as immigration does not bode well for the illegal's observance of any other US laws. If the illegal will not obey the immigration laws, he will very likely ignore any other laws which he wishes to disregard.

We already know that not the best nor the brightest are the vast majority of illegals. Jimmy Carter allowed in the scum and dregs of Castro's Socialist "paradise" and prison resort during Mariel. We seem to forget the thousands of crimes committed and the enormous disruption of civil life because of that wholesale influx of otherwise illegal mass. Vincente Fox goes Castro one better. He gets a president to agree to take his overflow of human surplus, thereby relieving himself of a teeming mass of unemployed and itinerant drifters who might otherwise join Mexico's "People's and Peasants" guerrilla movements. Instead of forcing Mexico into the 19th century and making Mexico respond to its fundamental weaknesses, we take them and thereby allow a latent cancer to infect our own economic, political and social institutions.

As if we don't have enough troubles to correct.

79 posted on 01/07/2004 8:49:23 PM PST by Thumper1960
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To: WOSG
Exactly. With President Bush's plan, illegal immigration will become a trickle, confined to those who are up to no good. It is well to separate those with good intentions from those with bad.
80 posted on 01/07/2004 8:50:36 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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