The false dilemma behind the Bush Amnesty

January 17th, 2004 | Sabertooth

[4.1O dana super trac pak]

Bump for later.

[international american]

Good tagline......
signed.....racist sexist homophobe:)

[Marine Inspector]

Are you sure

I thought I was. It appears I was wrong. Thanks for pointing this out.

I thought the employment verification program (Form I-9) was mandatory, not voluntary.

Unfortunately, making the program mandatory, will not curtail illegal immigration.

Marine Inspector

[Marine Inspector]

Quit running from the facts,

It's the only defense the Leftist and NeoCons have.

Marine Inspector

[ninenot]

Cato is a THE libertarian think-tank. Way back on this thread (before #50) I posted an article including a link to a conference held at Cato regarding the President's proposal. The post is worth a read.

[ninenot]

Right. She only speaks for the Administration in this matter. Doesn't know anything, just talks. /sarcasm...

[txdoda]

Thanks for pointing this out.>>>>>>>>

When I saw your post, I thought maybe I had misread on this 'so-called' law.

Leave it to those in DC, to 'pat themselves on the back' for passing ANOTHER law, complete with the usual LOOPHOLES.


Unfortunately, making the program mandatory, will not curtail illegal immigration.>>>>>>

We always hear that it's so hard to prosecute the employers, because 'some' forged papers are so good. *IF* gov't had made this law MANDATORY, wouldn't this give them a way to FINE the illegal employers ??

For GWB to sign this in 'voluntarily', just seems to me, that *no one* is too serious about catching the millions of employers who work these illegals & also avoid paying MILLIONS in state & federal taxes.

[Travis McGee]

BUMP!

[SAMWolf]

Tnaks ninenot

[TomasUSMC]

What is all this jive about 8-12 million being alot. It might be alot of people for Costa Rica but we have close to 300,000,000 folks in this country. It would be no problem at all to kick them out. We outnumber them at least 20:1.

Of course if they have cojones and our President don't then that - still means we outnumber them 20:1.

Now, if we don hav no cojones and dayhav big cojones den we are n deeep kaka.

[ninenot]

Hey Southie--I looked it up special, just for you. Let's start here:

SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.

`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).

`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.

`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context.


Pay PARTICULAR ATTENTION to 501(c)(1,2, and 3).

This section allows a deputy SAC to request warrant for search of financial transactions, etc., etc., and gags the (financial institution, e.g.) about such requests as well as executed warrants on Suspect A's accounts.

Under THIS Section:

SEC. 213. AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT.
Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(a) IN GENERAL- ' before `In addition'; and
(2) by adding at the end the following:
`(b) DELAY- With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--

`(1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705);
`(2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property, any wire or electronic communication (as defined in section 2510), or, except as expressly provided in chapter 121, any stored wire or electronic information, except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and
`(3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.'.
(also known as Sneak and Peek), the Feds are authorized to search property and records WHILE DELAYING NOTIFICATION to the individual whose property is being searched.

At one time, the Fourth Amendment prohibited this.

Further, the FBI has now stretched the meaning of 501 (IIRC) to include such "terrorist" activity as mob money-laundering and tax inquiries.

Hmmmmm.

Frankly, I'm not all that worried about Ashcroft & Co. But I am VERY worried about the HRC Administration , which should take office in 2009.

[Marine Inspector]

*IF* gov't had made this law MANDATORY, wouldn't this give them a way to FINE the illegal employers ??

Unfortunately no. Even if the program is mandatory, the law is the same and LEO's will still have a hard time prosecuting employers. Employers are not document fraud experts and the court precedents already set reinforce this.

Marine Inspector

[Missouri]

Bump.

[txdoda]

Employers are not document fraud experts and the court precedents already set reinforce this. >>>>>>

I'm just saying *if* this law read employers MUST verify SS # (at time of hiring), anytime illegals were found working with false SS#'s, then the employer could be fined.

Really no 'documents' to check here...... ONLY that the SS # matches the name/dob in the SS database.

[FITZ]

And if we can make them go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue card, THEN WHY CAN'T WE JUST MAKE THEM GO HOME NOW?

Good question --- and the blue card will be good for 3 years --- as it is now many illegals actually do go home in between jobs --- it's too easy to be picked up and deported if you wander about looking for work ---- with a blue card, do they get deported between jobs or do they have a right to stay and opening seek employment?

[FITZ]

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all.

I could possibly see a guest worker program if it's actually proved that we need agricultural workers ---- but those jobs are very seasonal --- for example here where I live there is no farm work because it's winter. I could see busing or flying work crews up for the harvest and then busing or flying them back when harvest is done. That way they keep their family ties and lives in Mexico --- and as long as the families stay there, they continue to be that government's responsibility to educate and provide health care --- otherwise they become ours --- and we can't afford it.

[FITZ]

Bush's plan also requires that they all go home voluntarily after three years

I think illegals are no different than many of us in that after 3 years of living in a place and having a job, they will adjust to their new surroundings and not want to go back ---especially because conditions in Mexico are worsening. How many of us have moved to a place or job and first said it was just temporary --- but even after a few months began to settle in and 10 years later are still there. 3 years isn't really temporary --- a few months might be and still provide stability for Mexico because that's where they would primarily live and build up.

[Boot Hill]

"Yours and Bush's 'benign plantation' image which posits the creation of a docmented underclass of swarthy folk imported to clean the nation's toilets is as racist an image as can be imagined. Why do you wallow in it?" -- Kevin Curry to Southack

Bases loaded homerun, KC.

--Boot Hill

[Beck_isright]

Bttt. Nice posting.

[tame]

I agree with most of your comments regarding Bush. during the Republican primary I voted for Alan Keyes, and I'm more convinced than ever that Keyes was the best choice. I knew that Bush was not principled enough on most the issues that matter most to me, except for issues like national defense and tax cuts. He's excellent on those.