Bush Offers Migrant Plan Conservatives Can Support

Arizona Republic ^ | January 18, 2004 | Jeff Flake

[kingu]

Just as a follow up to what I was saying about the illegals giving interviews down here

I'll hop over to that thread for my opinion on THAT type of thing.

[MattAMiller]

No Bush is not addressing a serious problem. Bush is playing politics with a serious problem. The past amnesty program showed that it was a failure by increasing illegal immigration.

Nobody has said that simply granting illegals legal status will fix the problem. We've said that we have a way to fix the problem and we'll allow illegals to participate in it if they cooperate and that's not the centerpiece of this proposal.

[Texasforever]

Look deal with reality or don't even bother. I spent 30 years in engineering and 20 in upper management. We avoided H1B like the plague. They were the highest maintenance most expensive class of employee we dealt with. Keep it honest.

[MissAmericanPie]

Except for a handful, I would imagine all of them in D.C. are dirty, bought, or buyable. What passes for rock ribbed conservative these days we considered liberal fifteen years ago.

[babygene]

"How was NAFTA going to strengthen the United States? It was a taxpayer givaway to Mexico, that is all.

Ahh, come on. NAFTA was a give away to corporations. "

I repeat, how was this going to strenghen the United States?

[kingu]

I repeat, by improving Mexico's economy so that the illegals stop coming here. By improving Mexico's political system so we don't have a poor time bomb on our doorstep.

[MattAMiller]

Or perhaps it isn't. You could read it another way, too.

Well jeez hopefully not. I have personal experience with the suckitude of the H1-B program. And it's possible this could be just as bad but on a grander scale. But we've had a guest worker program in the past without demolishing the middle class so I'm going to guess it's possible.

[Marak]

[Nobody has said that simply granting illegals legal status will fix the problem. We've said that we have a way to fix the problem and we'll allow illegals to participate in it if they cooperate and that's not the centerpiece of this proposal.]

Okay let me get this straight. We have an immigration problem. We are going to pass laws to create a legal rememdy to this problem. A cornerstone of this legal rememdy is to ignore the illegal status of the participants? That is not correcting a problem. That is changing the definition of the problem so that it appears to go away.

We are currently incapable of enforcing our immigration laws, but this new plan guarantees that we will enforce those laws. Color me skeptical. Either we can enforce the laws or we cannot. If we can, enforcing them should be the first step in any new immigration plan.

[Texasforever]

That is not correcting a problem. That is changing the definition of the problem so that it appears to go away.

No that is looking at the present situation and a possible re-evaluation of how to do things. I don't think this proposal will do anything at all to stop future illegal immigration. I don't think there is any remedy short of an "illegal immigration martial law" for the period of time it would take to actually round them up followed by militarizing the borders. That is not going to happen as bad as some may want it.

[FairOpinion]

[As for the cost, I guess you don't mind paying for all the lazy bums collecting welfare, just as long as they are citizens.] I have no idea where you are going with this. Do you?

===

Americans shun menial labor. Hence there is a need for workers, who are willing to do that kind of work. Enter the illegal aliens, who are more than willing to do that kind of work at lower than minimum wage.

If we took away the incentive from Americans to lay about, instead of working -- because we are handing out welfare, maybe they would actually work, then there may not be as much demand for illegal aliens, as workers.

On another thread a few of us were sharing anecdotal and actualy well known info, that if you hire "an American" to clean up your back yard, or do menial work, he wants a lot of money, it takes him a long time and won't even do a decent job. You hire a Mexican legal or illegal, and the work is done fast and well, because they actually WORK.

[Marak]

[I don't think there is any remedy short of an "illegal immigration martial law" ]

That is quite a pessimistic thought. You are really saying that we can't find any remedy that is palatable to the American public?

I would like to think we are more resourceful than that. There are reasons that people break the law. Most often it is to make more money than they can earn in their homeland. Our lack of enforcement of current immigration laws are obviously not a deterrent. So that suggests several rememdies.

Increase enforcement of our current laws to make it more expensive to come here, and make it so there is less chance that they will earn the desired dollars if they do make it here. If they cannot achieve their goals, they will not come.

[Texasforever]

Increase enforcement of our current laws to make it more expensive to come here, and make it so there is less chance that they will earn the desired dollars if they do make it here. If they cannot achieve their goals, they will not come.

Very good. Now, if we can agree that the majority of illegal immigrants from south and central America are working in minimum wage level jobs and that once they register those employing them will have to at least meet that minimum standard as this proposal lays out then we have something to discuss and debate. The problem so far is not having anyway to determine who is legal and who is not.

[Marak]

[You hire a Mexican legal or illegal, and the work is done fast and well, because they actually WORK.]

I am not opposed to legal immigration. There are millions of people who would love to come here and would accept any work they could find. They would also be desireous of making America their new homeland. I would much prefer to see that happen than illegals sneaking across the border to take the money back home.

As for the whole welfare problem, that is another road to travel, and it is much longer than this one.

[Marak]

Very good. Now, if we can agree that the majority of illegal immigrants from south and central America are working in minimum wage level jobs and that once they register those employing them will have to at least meet that minimum standard as this proposal lays out then we have something to discuss and debate. The problem so far is not having anyway to determine who is legal and who is not.

I don't know that I can agree as to the wages earned by illegals. I suspect that you might be right that they are minimal, but I read too many stories of illegals in construction work paying 20-40 per hour. There are also lawn services down here that pay exorbitant rates. Legal landscapers are going out of business because they are being undercut. But for the sake of argument, let's assume your statement is correct.

You state that the proposal calls for minimum wages. I read Bush's speech and did not see that in there. In fact, I remember thinking about whether they could get around minimum wages laws somehow. Correct me if I am wrong here.

You further assume that the illegals will register. I posted an article tonight from the Naples Daily News where the illegals talk about not registering. In fact, they kind of like the way it is with the exception of getting caught. Only a complete amnesty would get them to come out of the woods.

Another assumption is that everyone (workers and employers) will play by the new rules. Why should they? They don't now and we do nothing about it. I know that Bush promised strict enforcement in the future, but quite frankly I don't believe that either. There is no desire to enforce our immigration laws. We are told that it is not feasible to do so right now, but it will be in the future? I don't buy it. Let the government show they can enforce the laws first.

Think about this for a moment. If we truly need a guest a program, why not offer it only to those who are NOT here? You want to get enrolled, go back home and sign up. The reason: We can't enforce the laws we have now. We are hoping that the illegals will walk into the INS office and give themselves up. That is what this program is all about and the illegals are not that stupid.

[usadave]

a far better solution than using force to militarily round up 8 million illegals, house them in temporary concentration camps, and eventually march them home in great masses like battlefield refugees.

It doesn't need to be carried out that way. You should read up on Operation Wetback which was implemented in 1954 to round up illegal aliens. We didn't have to physically round up all of the illegal aliens (most left voluntarily), we didn't house them in concentration camps, and we didn't march the illegal aliens home in great masses like battlefield refugees

[Texasforever]

You further assume that the illegals will register. I posted an article tonight from the Naples Daily News where the illegals talk about not registering. In fact, they kind of like the way it is with the exception of getting caught. Only a complete amnesty would get them to come out of the woods.

Thus my "pessimism" regarding the proposal. This is not a fix. I laid out the most draconian fix which is never going to happen but there is another one less draconian but also stands little chance of working.

The INS has a grand total of 2000 field agents to enforce the immigration laws over the entire country. Do the math 2000 divided into anywhere from 8 to 14 million depending who is publishing the numbers. The Feds could boost the number of field agent a hundred fold and still not make a dent. It is obvious that without the help of the State and local governments the Feds alone cannot make the difference. The problem is that the Bush administration has already ask for state cooperation and even after 911 almost to a man they told him to kiss off. The ugly truth is that these illegal aliens are not only tolerated by the states they are protected from the Feds. That is why I am pessimistic. That is why nothing effective will ever be done until the states themselves get involved.