Bush Offers Migrant Plan Conservatives Can Support

Arizona Republic ^ | January 18, 2004 | Jeff Flake

[FairOpinion]

"If businesses cannot remain solvent without illegal labor, then we have problems other than one of immigration.

If the minimum wage is too high, lower it. "

===

BINGO.

My point exactly. Take away welfare from strong, healthy people, and thus take away the incentive to lay about, instead of working, eliminate minimum wage, and in a while there will be more Americans willing to do menial work, which they shun now, because it's easier to sit and collect welfare.

[kingu]

And just to clarify -- If the illegal problem can't be solved in California, forget about any problem working. Other states might have problems, we have an epidemic. Something that might cure the ills in New Hampshire will only mean you're giving the people in California a new place to go.

Any solution must address California specifically. Yes, like many things, we're the cause of the nation's ills. We're infected, and we'll infect you too unless a cure is found. Any new federal laws must specifically counter all the junk that the RATs have put into place in this state.

Officers here can not inquire as to a person's immigration state until they've been convicted. The criminals can't be deported until after they've served their sentence, and the bus to the border best be on time, or the illegals are free to walk away. No welfare or hospital in the state can ask about someone's immigration status, nor can they inform the authorities if it is discovered through a credit check that the person is using false identification or an illegal.

We nuked the head RAT, but our legislature and courts are loaded with them. We've got vocal groups ready to march, protest and scream at the drop of a hat. If Mexico wins a soccer game, we get mini riots. The problem is here, and the solution best arrive soon.

[Marak]

[You are both making the very points, why Bush's guest worker program is a step in the right direction.] Wrong.

[Bush is addressing a serious problem, which existed and has been getting worse for the past 15 years.]
No Bush is not addressing a serious problem. Bush is playing politics with a serious problem. The past amnesty program showed that it was a failure by increasing illegal immigration. The problem has been getting worse becasue we refuse to address it, jsut as Bush is now refusing to address it.

[As for the cost, I guess you don't mind paying for all the lazy bums collecting welfare, just as long as they are citizens.] I have no idea where you are going with this. Do you?

[kingu]

I am all for that -- problem is the US courts, stuffed with liberals, who overturn any sensible measures voters try to pass, such as Prop. 187.

The problem with 187 type plans (and yes, they've cleaned up a lot of the errors in the new system) is that why should California have to pass this law, and what will be the results of it?

Let's say we actually pass an effective law here. The illegals will scatter across the country, doubling in size everywhere. Some state will feel sorry and an idiot RAT will stand up and say they'll give illegals safe harbor.

These things need to be established at the national level to apply to every state, and the states forced to follow them, because otherwise, we just move the illegal population.

[babygene]

"You are both making the very points, why Bush's guest worker program is a step in the right direction."

No it doesn't, it institutionalizes the problem. The solution is to bill Mexico for the services provided to their citizens.

Take it out of the money we give them for their exports to this country. If we did that, the Mexican government would stop the illegals before they got to the border. Problem solved for new immigrants... Then go after the employers of the illegals that are already here.

[WOSG]

"Again, the "carrot" of a temporary worker program must be coupled with the "stick" of workplace enforcement. With a reasonable legal avenue available, workers should have no excuse for not utilizing it and employers should have no excuse for hiring those who do not. "

Wait a second .... that's my metaphor!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1059957/posts

[dennisw]

What a lie. Flake is a sell out on immigration and has been so for a long time. Must be those huge agribiz campaign contributions.

[kingu]

No it doesn't, it institutionalizes the problem. The solution is to bill Mexico for the services provided to their citizens.

Ok, so we bill Mexico for the illegal aliens, Mexico tells us to suck dirt, and then what? We cut their foreign aid? Anyone care to look up how much aid we give Mexico each year? I guess the next step after that is to shut down NAFTA, which was supposed to help strengthen all three countries so that they wouldn't be coming here in the first place.

Strikes me as that is a quick way to go backward, and increase the number of illegals, rather than reduce them.

[FairOpinion]

"These things need to be established at the national level to apply to every state, "

==

I am all for that -- but where is the US Congress on this?

Do you think all those bleeding heart Dems would vote for a law to withhold welfare from illegal aliens?

We would have to elect a lot more Republicans to do that.

[Marak]

[But how do you stop someone coming here through the border checkpoint itself?] Good question. Wish I had a good answer.

[and faking a license is FAR too easy.] Subcontractors here must be licensed at the county level. While I am sure there might be ways to get around it, eventually they would be outed.

[now I have to pay $40,000+ a year per illegal?] They are cost more than that already. You said they are coming here for the money. They don't want to spend a year in jail. Maybe we could make the inmates pick strawberries :)

[abigailsmybaby]

They need to slap hefty fines on employers and prosecute the touchy-feely organizations that aid and abet them as soon as they step across the border.

[Marak]

[Some are trying to resurrect a different version of it.]

I hope they are successful. America cannot afford to care for the entire world. I sure wish their own countries would work to make their homelands a better place to live.

[babygene]

"I guess the next step after that is to shut down NAFTA, which was supposed to help strengthen all three countries so that they wouldn't be coming here in the first place."

How was NAFTA going to strengthen the United States? It was a taxpayer givaway to Mexico, that is all.

[MattAMiller]

Flake is a good guy. How could he let himself get mixed up with the likes of Kolbe and McCain!?

Maybe you need to give the proposal another look. I don't expect everybody to think it will work, but there's nothing liberal about it. Not as I see it, not as Flake sees it. It's unfortunate it has to be couched in a bunch of third-way hooey, but that's salesmanship for you.

[Texasforever]

it would expand the H1-B program which has already made work very difficult to find.

I dealt with the H1-B program for many years. That program DOES NOT ALLOW EMPLOYERS TO PAY A FOREIGN WORKER ON AN H1-B VISA LESS THAN THEIR NORMAL PAY SCALE OR BENEFITS FOR ANY JOB.

[MattAMiller]

That is the WORST solution. You can't expect employers to be the cops for the INS. You are expecting for employers hiring minimum wage help to do a background investigation on these people, which would have a prohibitive cost.

Acutally I disagree here, you could provide it for free. Just provide instant checks on Social Security numbers. All you need is web page and a database.

[kingu]

I am all for that -- but where is the US Congress on this?

Finally talking about it? A month ago, hardly anyone ways. Now every RAT presidential candidate has outed themselves.

Do you think all those bleeding heart Dems would vote for a law to withhold welfare from illegal aliens? We would have to elect a lot more Republicans to do that.

Last I looked, we have a Republican senate, house and president. All are supposedly looking at the issue, yet we've got people all over the place, dredging up wacko programs no one wanted before, and even the proposers of reasonable programs tracing all over the place.

Honestly, who the heck wants a guest worker. Do we suddenly have a shortage of people who want to come and live in this country and become citizens? Aren't there huge backlogs around the world of people?

[kingu]

How was NAFTA going to strengthen the United States? It was a taxpayer givaway to Mexico, that is all.

Ahh, come on. NAFTA was a give away to corporations. The idea was somewhat sound - since corporations were looking overseas for production, we could aim them toward Mexico, hopefully improving their financial and political state so that the illegals would stop invading us. Canada would hopefully come along for the party as well.

What happened? Companies went even further abroad and congress couldn't bring themselves to put in import quotas that were needed because it'd hurt their largest contributors. Besides, the unions weren't complaining loud enough because they kept reaching into the service industries.

If Mexico's political and economic condition does not improve, we'll just keep getting people trying to hop the border. When I go shopping, I look for Made in USA first, and pray that I'm not supporting the sweat shops on Guam, then I'll look for made in Mexico or Canada. And nine times out of ten, after I can't find any of that, I'll end up with something made in China or Bangladesh.

[Marak]

[Corporate farms, perhaps? Nahh, they use the guest worker program that we already have in place,] Actually there are plenty of illegals on the corporate farms here. They even are organized and give interviews to the newspapers.

Just as a follow up to what I was saying about the illegals giving interviews down here, check this out. Article in Tomorrow's Naples Daily News