Pyrolysis/Mass Spectrometry show threads from Shroud of Turin Carbon-dating different

www.Shroud.com ^ | January 2004 | Ray N. Rogers,

[aruanan]

BUT HAVE NO NAPKIN which would have been DIRECTLY attached to His face, tells me this is a hoax.

There is nothing in the text that indicates this was the case for either Lazarus or Jesus. You're doing quite a bit of eisegesis, apparently without even being aware of it. That is, you haven't been able to separate your interpretation from the data and are seeing things that just aren't there.

[Agnes Heep]

If it's a hoax it's a darn good one, continuing to stump us for all our 21st c science.

I don't think it's a hoax, but at the same time I don't think it's what its supporters claim it to be. For some time now I've toyed with the idea that ionizing radiation might have produced the image. But where would the radiation have come from? If the prototype for the image had been a piece of statuary, it might have come from radioactive elements that occur naturally in many kinds of rocks, especially of the sedimentary variety. Now, the Byzantine story of the Mandylion (which many believe to have been the shroud, folded over and kept within a frame) says that the cloth-bearing image was found in proximity to a "tile" that had an exact copy of the image imprinted on it. Supposedly the cloth had been placed in a niche in the walls of Edessa, and the tile placed in front of it for protection; the image then sat in the niche for several hundred years before its discovery during a siege. Suppose, however, that this story has it backward: suppose that it was the tile that had been placed in the niche, and the cloth placed over it for covering. Over the course of several centuries, radioactive material in the stone might have produced sufficient ionizing radiation to oxidize and discolor the threads of the cloth in proportion to its proximity to the tile, thus producing the image we know as the Shroud of Turin.

The Edessans who discovered the tile would have been hard-pressed to explain what they had found, but to their minds the image on the tile would have appeared less miraculous than that on the cloth. Hence the cloth would have been regarded as divinely wrought.

[SoothingDave]

While I was reading this article, I was reminded of writing with "invisible ink" as a kid. A sugar water solution will dry clear on a piece of paper and then show up as brown writing when the paper is exposed to mild heat.

Do you honestly think that this image is caramel? And that no one has tested for this juvenile thing?

SD

[thedilg]

Please add me.

Goodspeed, The Dilg

[mdmathis6]

The ionization theory doesn't explain the type AB blood found on the shroud!

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

If some unknown energy transferred the image onto the shroud, it might also have transferred an image onto a napkin...

This is true, but if there was a napkin then there could be nothing resembling blood on the spots on the shroud where there appears to be a trickle of blood on the forehead of the man of the shroud.
And weren't those spots proved to have been dlood years ago?.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

And the face looks rather older than a man in his 30's.

I'm not trying to be snide or disrespectful...but how old would you look after being scourged 39 times, punched, abused and made to haul 200 lbs. of lumber a long distance knowing full well you were to be crucified on it?

[Agnes Heep]

The ionization theory doesn't explain the type AB blood found on the shroud!

I don't think it has to. Don't be fooled by reports that bloodstained areas had no image fibrils underneath. That was based on a single, offhand remark that was itself based on a casual observation of a single fibril.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Swordmaker]

Using a real human head to stamp the image would exactly get the 3-D information effect.

Sorry, no. Using a stamping scenario does not get the 3-D effect... not even close. It has been tried by numerous researchers. You wind up with a severely distorted caricature of a human face, not the subtle image of the shroud with its proportions intact. This is the same reason the "bacteria created" image fails... some of the image is from areas that there WAS no contact.

[Swordmaker]

Please add me.

Done.

[Swordmaker]

I don't think it has to. Don't be fooled by reports that bloodstained areas had no image fibrils underneath. That was based on a single, offhand remark that was itself based on a casual observation of a single fibril.

Excuse me but both your statements are wrong, counter to the research and peer reviewed papers.

Blood of Type AB has been identified on both the Shroud (in every location where you see blood that has been tested has tested positive.) The report of the image NOT being under the blood is much more than "an off hand remark" about a "casual observation of a single fibril." It was a specific object of investigation and was completely proven.

[Agnes Heep]

It was a specific object of investigation and was completely proven.

I'd be interested in seeing the report.

[polemikos]

Would it be possible to retrieve human DNA from the Shroud?

Possibly. But age, and pyrolysis/oxidation have severely damaged what remains.

And could it be determined where the DNA originated?

Possibly. But the more intriguing scenario is cloning resulting in the Second Coming ;-)

[mdmathis6]

The image shows pigmented areas that look like blood amidst the "burned" or "ionized" images (to use your term) that appear to have flowed from "ionized" appearing wound images...even if you want to argue if the reddish material was blood or paint.

[Graymatter]

>>how old would you look after...

That's a fair question. Still, even at my age the face looks youthful when I'm lying down face up. And death ought to settle bruising somewhat too. That image just looks to me like a person in the upright position.
Besides, what's with the blood stains? When people prepare the dead don't they wash the face at least?

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

When people prepare the dead don't they wash the face at least?

Good question. But if I recall correctly The Crucifixion and burial took place very close to Shabbat. If that were the case, there may not have been time before sundown to properly prepare the body at the time as no Jew of that period (or this one for that matter) would have done any of that work on Shabbat.

Wasn't it during Pesach (Passover) as well?

[RaceBannon]

There is nothing in the text that indicates this was the case for either Lazarus or Jesus. You're doing quite a bit of eisegesis, apparently without even being aware of it. That is, you haven't been able to separate your interpretation from the data and are seeing things that just aren't there.

Oh?

(John 11:43 KJV) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

((John 11:44 KJV) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

[RaceBannon]

(John 20:6 KJV) Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

(John 20:7 KJV) And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

[RaceBannon]

Jesus was killed at the same time as the Passover Lamb was killed. On Wednesday.