Posted on 01/23/2004 3:00:06 PM PST by mhking
BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.
Gimme the principle these magical 'devices' work on - and you *might* have some credibility in this discussion.
Lacking that, or a working 'over-unity' device, you're just passing air/throwing letters on the screen ...
CRIPES, these crackpots HAVEN'T EVEN proposed their 'theories' by which their devices work ... wait a minute - SOME HAVE - and their methodology was DEEP DEEP DEEPLY FLAWED - as in, they couldn't perform basic measurements correctly or couldn't do the mathLEADING THEM to incorrect deductions and more BAD SCIENCE.
Those LAWS of nature of which I speak DIDN'T HAPPEN the first time out - it took ITERATION after ITERATION and centuries to FINALLY *prove out* the 'correct' theories.
TO DATE, the same HAS NOT OCURRED with these so-called 'over-unity' black-magic devices.
For you to continue to argue further requires that you effectively turn your back on tons of work that has been done by thousands and thousands of mathematicians, scientists, engineers, chemists and physicists.
DO YOU NOT THINK that some easier means of extracting energy from 'matter' would have been proposed by now? The 'splitting of the atom' and the release of tons of energy was predicted (hypothesized) long before it was done, and IT WAS DONE BUILT UPON THE PREVIOUS SCIENTIFIC WORK OF OTHERS.
THIS last point - I don't think YOU and the 'free energy' crowd get, comprehend OR understand.
To you guys, it's like 'the world' was created yesterday and NOBODY knows NOTHING about the way it works ...
In the Scientific American of October 18, 1879, there appeared an illustrated article by Mr. Upton on Edison's dynamo machine, in which Edison's views and claims were set forth. A subsequent issue contained a somewhat acri- monious letter of criticism by a well-known maker of dynamo machines. At the risk of being lengthy, we must quote nearly all this letter: "I can scarcely conceive it as possible that the article on the above subject "(Edison's Electric Generator)" in last week's Scientific American could have been written from statements derived from Mr. Edison himself, inasmuch as so many of the advantages claimed for the machine described and statements of the results obtained are so manifestly absurd as to indicate on the part of both writer and prompter a positive want of knowledge of the electric circuit and the principles governing the construction and operation of electric machines.
"It is not my intention to criticise the design or construction of the machine (not because they are not open to criticism), as I am now and have been for many years engaged in the manufacture of electric machines, but rather to call attention to the impossibility of obtaining the described results without destroying the doctrine of the conservation and correlation of forces.
. . . . .
"It is stated that `the internal resistance of the armature' of this machine `is only 1/2 ohm.' On this fact and the disproportion between this resistance and that of the external circuit, the theory of the alleged efficiency of the machine is stated to be based, for we are informed that, `while this generator in general principle is the same as in the best well-known forms, still there is an all-important difference, which is that it will convert and deliver for useful work nearly double the number of foot-pounds that any other machine will under like conditions.' " The writer of this critical letter then proceeds to quote Mr. Upton's statement of this efficiency: "`Now the energy converted is distributed over the whole resistance, hence if the resistance of the machine be represented by 1 and the exterior circuit by 9, then of the total energy converted nine-tenths will be useful, as it is outside of the machine, and one-tenth is lost in the resistance of the machine.'"
After this the critic goes on to say:
"How any one acquainted with the laws of the electric circuit can make such statements is what I cannot understand. The statement last quoted is mathematically absurd. It implies either that the machine is CAPABLE OF INCREASING ITS OWN ELECTROMOTIVE FORCE NINE TIMES WITHOUT AN INCREASED EXPENDITURE OF POWER, or that external resistance is NOT resistance to the current induced in the Edison machine.
"Does Mr. Edison, or any one for him, mean to say that r/n enables him to obtain nE, and that C IS NOT = E / (r/n + R)? If so Mr. Edison has discovered something MORE than perpetual motion, and Mr. Keely had better retire from the field.
"Further on the writer (Mr. Upton) gives us another example of this mode of reasoning when, emboldened and satisfied with the absurd theory above exposed, he endeavors to prove the cause of the inefficiency of the Siemens and other machines. Couldn't the writer of the article see that since C = E/(r + R) that by R/n or by making R = r, the machine would, according to his theory, have returned more useful current to the circuit than could be due to the power employed (and in the ratio indicated), so that there would actually be a creation of force!
. . . . . . .
"In conclusion allow me to say that if Mr Edison thinks he has accomplished so much by the REDUCTION OF THE INTERNAL RESISTANCE of his machine, that he has much more to do in this direction before his machine will equal IN THIS RESPECT others already in the market."
You're posting nothing new or of any value now - posting a repeat of history may make you look good here to the others, but, it isn't cutting the mustard as regards to poorly performed or erroneously conducted tests when it comes to 'proving' this overunity/free energy BS.
Come back when you've REALLY got something.
Yeah, he is a little. His Webmaster, 'lefty Jeff Neff' is a lot wackier.
Rense's philosophy is to read all the news and especially stuff you don't agree with. He says he doesn't agree with a lot of what his site posts. He's being anti-censorship. I say fine, I read the Barf material too as much as I can stomach.
What conservative issues Rense does believe in are tighter control of our borders in particular the Mexican border. A better educated public that is dumb down. China being a military threat that seeks to defeat the United States - pro Taiwan.
He's cynical about the press because of censorship and lies (I agree here). And his forum is a soap box of just about every conspiracy theory there is. His site is conspiracy central, which can be entertaining.
Once again, your powers of scientific observation leave me exceedingly UNDERWHELMED.
I have NOT "poopooed" ANY natural laws--or supernatural laws, for that matter.
I have tried to caution rigid, smug, fossilized, hostile arrogance hiding behind the religion of science.
Actually, ARROGANCE hiding behind much of anything is sheer idiocy, in my experience and observation.
I think aruanan said it about 10 times better than I have, to date. A wise person would ponder aruanan's words carefully and profitably.
I don't know what the ABSOLUTE TRUTH will turn out to be regarding UFO's nor 'zero-point' energy. I have read enough and been around long enough to be convinced that whatever construction of reality ends up having the most congruence with "objective" reality--whatever delusion THAT is--I'm convinced that whatever construction of reality ends up having the most congruence with "objective" reality--it is likely to be markedly skewed from your current biases and fossilized constructions.
As my univ library boss said, it was the flakey publications, pamphlets, leaflets and broadsides which earliest and most accurately predicted what sort of person Hitler was and what he would end up doing.
And, as my super brilliant PhD chairman said when I challenged him about the multiple revisions and contradictions in the Book of Mormon: "LIFE IS SOOOOOO COMPLEX THAT JUST ABOUT ANY COCKAMAYMEE EXPLNATION WILL DO."
If you have not lived long enough to have gained sufficient humility and broadness of experience and mind to know those two things to some degree of reliability--then I suspect you have not lived long enough to be pontificating at any where near your level of arrogance.
Greer says in the document I posted . . .
[I'm skeptical you read these paragraphs so I'm posting them again]
SG: Well, I certainly, you know, accept the things that we have personally discovered and have multiple corroborating sources for. It's like at the New York Times, they want three separate sources. Well almost everything that we've bought into, we have more than half a dozen sources. So certainly there is extraordinary secrecy that's para-governmental, meaning that it is within certain aspects of what we might think of as the government. But in fact the Constitutional government as we think of it has very little sway over these matters and it's been really handled in an extra-constitutional manner.
Now, doesn't that sound soooooooo egregioiusly like a flaming, flaky, irrational, logic challenged lunatic? /sar
SG: Well, it's interesting, it's been a 2 year search. I will tell you that, as we expected at the outset, the vast majority of claims associated with this area are fraudulent. The next largest category are people who are not frauds but are simply delusional, meaning that they're sincere, but they're sincerely wrong. They believe they have something that is in fact a source of quote "free energy" and it isn't, it's a calculation problem or what have you.
[Qx: Again--obvious lunacy; obviously logically challenged; obviously sensationalizing off the cliff. /sar]
SG: The third category of people are people who really do have something, and I'm speaking of people who have not yet been absorbed into a corporate structure or government structure. These are people who, unfortunately we have found, all but one of them so far, and I say all but one - and we'll get to that in a moment - who have been convinced that, quote "the world isn't ready for this yet", and to keep it secret. In other words, they've gone through the same brainwashing that has kept some of the military people in line to keep these other things secret.
[Qx: Again, more sheer lunacy. /sar. This is a change from the last I'd read of this part of his project. My memory of my last reading on such issues was that they had at least a handful of individuals and technologies and 1 or more of those well along in the process--including verifying soundness of the prototypes in doing what they claimed--being verified at various famous labs around the country. It sounds like some of those individuals got cold feet under considerable persuasion.]
SG: Yes, and what's interesting - and some of these are people who have systems that we have personally seen and tested and which would revolutionize the way the people on Earth live on the Earth. However, I believe they have been intercepted by people who appear to be friendlies to them, and who are actually counterintelligence and disinformation people who have convinced them of sort of a, sort of played into the inventor's syndrome of a Messianic complex where they're told, "Well, look you know, the world isn't ready for this yet, but when there's this eschatological solution to the human problem, sort of the "End of theWorld" scenario, we can then bring this out, phoenix like, and recreate, or resurrect, life on Earth in a positive way, and you can be the bearer of this information."
[QX: More obvious flakey pontifications. /sar]
SG: Well, there's a combination of veiled threats and a history of threats and then a sort of grandiose appeal to people to keep these things quiet until quote "the right time". Now, of course, one of the things that we've pointed out to these gentlemen, is that if you want to take sort of a spiritual view of this - if the Divine Being has allowed the minds of men to discover these wondrous sources of energy and sciences for almost a hundred years, only to have them cast aside out of lust for power and greed and secrecy and other dark human emotions, how can you say the world isn't ready? It IS ready. It's just that the sort of power elite, if you will, aren't ready because they don't want to let go of the centralized power that is contained within the entire structure of the macro-economic structure that's based on the energy system that runs the entire world economy. But the point is that we believe that this last category of people are people who actually have discovered great things, are geniuses, but unfortunately have been convinced to keep it secret.
[QX: Clearly more proof of Greer's insanity--NOT!
SG: It wasn't quite kilowatts, maybe it was about half a kilowatt,and this is the machine that we were able to pick up and take outside, plug things into it, inspect it. There was no hidden source of power. It was one of the most extraordinary things I have personally ever seen. Now, that's the good news. The good news is that I'm quite sure that this can be done.
[QX: obviously this paragraph is proof of Greer's insanity sufficient to hospitalize him or assign him the most complicated job he could possibly bear--sweeping floors or cleaning toilets. /sar]
SG: Now, there's another category, and I would say that our group, the Disclosure Project, working with SEAS - and the disclosureproject.org people can look at what we're doing with this and also seaspower.com, our website. But what we have found is that there are about 3 dozen inventors who have devices in mature stages, or less ripe stages of development, and we think that with probably around 10 million dollars in research and development funds, that at least a dozen of those could be brought to commercial viability within a year or two. Unfortunately, they do need that kind of support and that's something we're looking at doing.
[QX: Oh, dear--more obvious flakiness. Or maybe it's device-envy. Maybe your's isn't as mature as any of these dozen different individuals. That would sure make it attractive to pretend they were all idiots fighting with the laws of nature, alright. Arrogance and jealousy have clouded 'scientific' judgment for 100's of years.
SG: What we're suggesting is that, let's get about a dozen of them who are highly credentialed who have been at the patent office, who have been in with an intelligence agency or corporation and have suppressed, for example, an 80 mile per gallon carburator, or who have suppressed a zero-point energy device, and who may have documentation to back this up or corroborating colleagues to back it up, and we will do next year, in the middle of this election cycle, a disclosure event, Disclosure Two, that will present to the world the fact that we do have a solution to the oil and biosphere and environmental problems, and that we have assembled people who are ready to testify and will testify quite independently again, here in Washington at the National Press Club, that in fact this has happened over the last fifty or sixty years. So, anyone who is like that and meets that criteria I just outlined can write to me personally at disclosureproject.org and we will get back in touch with them.
[QX: More obvious flakiness working hard to keep all this in the dark halls of shared idiocy so that the light of day never reveals the impossibilities! NOT!
SG: However, I will tell you - you know, Art, I'm very careful. We're not going go forward with anything like this until we have multiple corroborating people who are highly credentialed, and highly credible, who are ready to put that information out to the public. The reason we think this has to happen very soon is because the public is being terribly mislead about not only why the world is run the way it is, but what has to be done to correct it. You know, we're looking at a 30-some billion dollar energy bill coming out of the Senate that doesn't address any of these issues, and with a fraction of a percent of that, this whole problem could be solved. So the public needs to know that there are seriously positive solutions to these energy problems that have been ruthlessly suppressed not out of national security but in point of fact, out of a ruthless sort of greed and a lust for power.
[QX: Obviously an ENQUIRER level statement. Obviously out for sheer insane, comic book level publicity from any one of several delusional states of psychosis. /sar] And the final proof of his idiocy:
SG: It could if they don't handle it right. This is the other point. If there continues to be a resistance to letting this information come out -- you know, I had an executive producer from one of the big 3 news networks who was going to do an enormous expose on what we had found with the Disclosure project and about a year ago when we were working on this with him, he came to me and said, you know, I cannot do this piece. And this is an extremely mainstream, powerful news figure.
AB: Time is very short. Why couldn't he do it?
SG: He said, "They won't let me" and I said "Who are 'they'?" and he said, "Well, you know who 'they' are" and he smiled and I said,"Yes, of course, I know who they are." But the fact is that the public is going to have to relentlessly continue to do this, and there's some good news here. I've just been invited to do a 5,000 word guest article for one of the world's most prestigious foreign affairs journals.
[QX: Obviouisly people of power, sanity, influence and reasonable IQ agree with you that he's hopelessly insane, deluded and otherwise and absolute blithering idiot. NOT!]
Sigh.
IF it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - how many brain cells does it take to identify it as such?
Geesh.
You have, in effect, proposed that today's long, hard, thought-out 'laws' are ineffectual and are not applicable nor capable of explaining 'zero point' energy and free energy technology.
That, in my book, is poo pooing.
THE FACT that we have split the atom seems to underwhelm you; splitting the atom is today the lone, sole source of AMAZING amounts of energy, but, that is underwhelming news. No, you instead point to the modern day alchemist who promises to turn _________ into 'free energy'.
BAD science. Misinterpretation of lab work, incapability of performing valid, technical experiments and tests I say ...
You've now attained 'escape velocity' and achieved orbit -
- good night.
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