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To: Jmouse007
"I am a born again Christian and as far as I am concerned the primary responsability of ANY nation is to take care of it's own citizens."

God does not recognize borders. He asked you in particular to Love thy neighbor as thyself. If you are born again then you should recognize the words of He you have accepted.

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores."

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"

He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'" He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

The concept here is to sort out those that are hard working from the criminals.

210 posted on 01/23/2004 9:06:44 PM PST by spunkets
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To: spunkets
Luke intended to dictate to believers what should be their personal policy towards the poor & less fortunate.

I doubt very seriously it was intended to serve as a template for immigration policy.

215 posted on 01/23/2004 9:18:59 PM PST by skeeter
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To: spunkets
You erroneously cited "Love thy neighbor"... you have taken that passage and the passage in Luke 16 totally out of context. Neither has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with securing national borders. Both have to do with the PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL TO LOVE HIS NEIGHBOR, not securing and maintaining national borders.

It is sad that you do not seem to know your Bible, on the face of it, the entire premise of your argument is false. God does indeed recognize nations and borders. He in fact is the one who established all of the nations on the face of the Earth:

"From these the coastlands of the nations were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations." (Gen. 10:5 cf 10:20, 10:31...)

“For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God." (Ex. 34:24)

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you,

and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them.

“Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons.

“For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.

“But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire.

“For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." (Deut 7:1-6)

“He makes the nations great, then destroys them; He enlarges the nations, then leads them away." (Job 12:23)

Sorry to burst your bubble but it sounds like God was and is concerned about secure borders for a whole host of reasons, to me.

There are also numerous instances where His people were admonished to defend themselves against invaders from other nations which had gathered for the express purpose of entering the land to conquer it, destroying Israel and replace them as the "new owners" of the land. Surprisingly, it was ONLY when the nations of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms fell into national sin and turned away from the true and living God that God allowed them to be conquered and dispossessed from the land He had given them by the Assyrians and the Babylonians.

A simple word study of the terms "nation" and "nations" using an exhaustive concordance of the Bible will show that your premise is false.

This concept of secure borders was not just an Old Testament notion, even in the days of the Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul; believing gentiles who were part of Caesar’s army (which was actively involved in subduing their conquered lands and SECURING the borders of Rome) were not counseled to give up their jobs in spite of the fact they were involved with securing the borders of Rome, rather Jesus admonished them in the following manner:

Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” (While Jesus addressed several centurions i.e. commanders of 100 men, the only admonition Jesus ever gave to soldiers in general in the Roman army is found here in Luke 3:14, and Jesus said nothing about the supposed injustice of maintaining the borders of Rome, which WAS a police state!)

In the account of the apostle Peter's address to Cornelius, a centurion and his friends and relatives in Caesarea (found in Acts 10), Peter does not say, as a good and loving Christian, Cornelius should no longer enforce Roman law by keeping the province of Casearea subjugated and it's borders secure.

As for the apostle Paul, he also had numerous contacts with centurions and soldiers of Rome throughout his ministry and not once does he ever say they should no longer enforce Roman law by keeping their borders secure.

In closing, based upon the Word of God, your argument does not hold water.

245 posted on 01/23/2004 10:44:33 PM PST by Jmouse007 (Tired of the Powell doctrine)
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To: spunkets
"God does not recognize borders."

Neither did Marx.
252 posted on 01/24/2004 4:28:59 AM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: spunkets
God does not recognize borders.

Contrarily, I think God is about borders, both moral, spiritual and physical. All of these figured from Egypt to Sinai into Cannan.

God lays borders and soverignty out specifically in Deuteronomy 34. And, I believe, in His divine purpose for history, expects at least America and Israel to defend theirs toward their continued projection and promotion of goodness in the world.

267 posted on 01/24/2004 9:31:30 AM PST by onedoug
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