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AMNESTY: HATING THE SIN; LOVING THE SINNER
The Right Report ^ | 2/3/4 | Patrick Rooney

Posted on 02/03/2004 6:50:12 PM PST by abigail2

Amnesty: Hating the Sin; Loving the Sinner

I have written about “The Party of Death (Democrats) vs. The Party of Slow Suicide (Republicans)”. But the GOP seems hell bent on speeding up the process via President Bush’s de facto Amnesty for illegals proposal. The question is, What to do about it?

Let’s face it: the President essentially inherited a security, cultural, and economic mess -- millions of illegal aliens floating around in America. His predecessors essentially looked the other way while illegals ran roughshod over our nation.

But George W. Bush’s biggest political problem in this election season is not illegal immigration itself, but rather the question mark being placed after his name by many potential voters. For the inescapable fact, is that the chief law enforcement officer in the land has insulted the lawful, and flattered the lawbreaker. And that goes to the question of character, the president’s assumed ace in the hole.

The American public has always been against legalizing illegals. When polled they’ve also shown solid support for militarizing the borders. The president knows this, and yet is determined to go against the law and the people anyway. Why?

I’m sorry to say our political parties too often do not represent the interests of the average American. The Democrats do the bidding of ethnic/interest groups, the unions and the fringe anti-values groups. But it is becoming increasingly clear that Republicans too often are also doing the bidding of ethnic groups and big business interests.

So what to do about the sellout?

Last week a group of Republican lawmakers signed a letter to the president warning him that he risks an election-year backlash if he continues to push his misguided illegal immigration proposal.

Many Americans are saying they won’t vote for the man if he continues in this direction. No, the vast majority won’t vote for Senator Kerry or some other liberal Democrat, but there’s a real possibility they may sit the election out.

The problem I have with all of this is that I have a lot of respect for President Bush. More importantly, I care about this nation’s future. So we’ve got to look reasonably at the options in front of us, with a clear head and heart.

Do decent Americans really want to stay away from the polls, and on election night watch the triumph of a liberal pro-tax, pro-abortion, soft-on-terrorism extremist? America cannot afford another liberal in office; it could be fatal. Just think what would happen if we had Al Gore leading us against the world’s terrorists after 9-11. No, I still thank God for President Bush.

Yet, I cannot be comfortable either in rubber-stamping the president’s behavior. We must oppose this illegal alien scam with everything we have.

I do not believe that those who would vote third party at this time are thinking clearly. If the president continues to push outrageous proposals like this one, and the Republican Party keeps being “the party of slow (or not-so-slow) suicide,” then one day in the near future a viable third party will come together. But that day does not yet exist.

The real reason we’ve gotten ourselves into this mess is that we’ve given up our rightful dominion over the political system, the same way we’ve given it up in our families and in our communities. I particularly urge men to come back -- now -- and tend to their obligations.

It takes a little patience, and a little work. But remember, before we fought our war with King George, we spent a great deal of time and energy attempting to get him to redress our grievances. We need to do our due diligence here too with President George.

Let’s not look for shortcuts. Let us take our country -- and political system -- back the right way! To act out of our resentments instead of our reason would be disastrous.

Patrick Rooney is the Director of Special Projects at BOND, the Brotherhood Organization of A New Destiny, a nonprofit organization dedicated to “Rebuilding the Family By Rebuilding the Man.”


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; election; electionpresident; illegals; immigrantlist; immigration; permissionslip; presidentbushlist
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Ok everyone, I'm sorry. I made a technical glitch and have had to repost this...but I'm posting all your comments. Let's start again. I think this is a great article Patrick and like it or not we have to face the facts...I agree with you. Now what's the best way to get BUSH'S ATENTION!

1 posted on 02/03/2004 4:14:26 PM PST by abigail2 [ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 The folks at the BOND foundation are some great folks with a lot of sense. I think they would do well to join forces with some of the traditionally white conservative groups to make thier voices heard a little louder.

2 posted on 02/03/2004 4:23:01 PM PST by cripplecreek (.50 cal border fence) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 I’m sorry to say our political parties too often do not represent the interests of the average American. This is the hard truth. Patrick is right, we cannot just rubber-stamp everything any administration proposes. We also cannot continue to support this human invasion that is coming over the border, and our government cannot continue to ignore it. People are really getting angry and might decide to sit this one out unless some good news about this defacto amnesty will be forthcoming.

3 posted on 02/03/2004 4:29:53 PM PST by janetgreen (WANTED: A President Who Will Enforce Immigration Laws) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: fabian; Alamo-Girl; HangFire; ALOHA RONNIE; feinswinesuksass; DoughtyOne; Mercuria; janetgreen; ... We freepers can do it...how to get everyone's voice to be heard!! Dump all the tortillas in the land into Potomac?

4 posted on 02/03/2004 4:35:22 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 Please remove me from your ping list. I've never asked you to be in your ping list. Thank you.

5 posted on 02/03/2004 4:38:53 PM PST by george wythe [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 To act out of our resentments instead of our reason would be disastrous. So well put. A very well written article that is attuned to the political realities that are swirling around out in the country right now. Hope lots of folks are listening.

6 posted on 02/03/2004 4:41:04 PM PST by EternalVigilance ("I like being free and that makes me an idiot, I suppose.") [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 All this whining about Pres Bush is getting tired. People will have a choice when they vote. Most likely , it will be between Pres Bush and kerry. Vote for whoever you think will do the best job. The notion that you have to like everything your candidate does or even says is looney. Moreover, if someone decides not to vote, they have no business yapping about anything at all.

7 posted on 02/03/2004 4:48:16 PM PST by paul51 [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 It will be interesting to see what (if anything) comes out of Congress on this; like the sunsetting of the egregious '94 AW ban, anything that grants amnesty (or pseudoamnesty) to millions of illegal lawbreakers, will not sit well with the Repubos conservative voter base. I don't think Congressional Republicans (at least most of them) are so stupid as to send along such legislation to Pres Bush BEFORE the '04 election.

8 posted on 02/03/2004 4:52:32 PM PST by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: abigail2 Thanks for the ping, abigal. One of the things that has always irritated me the most about this immigration mess is the usual absence of any legitimate political debate. I think that the Democratic politicians who support illegal immigration do so in order to bolster their ranks. I think that the Republican politicians who support illegal immigration do so in order to increase the supply of labor and to thereby reduce wages on behalf of employers. Neither side, though, feels comfortable expressly articulating their support for illegal immigration or the real motives for supporting it. As a result, there has been a quiet failure on the part of our government to discourage illegal immigration and there is an unwillingness on the part of both parties to reverse the damage. Like I say, I think what really frustrates a lot of people about this issue is the absence of any open, honest debate about it among our leaders.

9 posted on 02/03/2004 4:57:18 PM PST by Scenic Sounds (Sí, estamos libres sonreír otra vez - ahora y siempre.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: cripplecreek They do. They are well known among illegal immigration, abortion and various other groups...but they lurk here. So let em know. Meanwhile, each one of us is going to have to raise a big stink if we are going to stem the flood of America hating infidels.

10 posted on 02/03/2004 4:59:37 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: janetgreen People are really getting angry and might decide to sit this one out unless some good news about this defacto amnesty will be forthcoming. Hi Janetgreen! I think we all agree. And I think Patrick is trying to say, DON'T GET MAD AND DO SOMETHING WE'LL REGRET! (so that later when our country is a total sodom and gommorah, you will have the satisfaction of saying 'I told you so!) ACT NOW!!

11 posted on 02/03/2004 5:03:13 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: EternalVigilance We've all got to make them listen. You might try emailing a link to this article to all your friends who complain about the illegal invasion, but do nothing.

12 posted on 02/03/2004 5:09:19 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: paul51 That's all very good and fine. But maybe you don't fully understand the gravity of the invasion, planned and executed by thugs and bullies and America haters. Maybe you haven't connected the dots between the violent crimes committed almost totally by illegals; the drugs and crime they have brought into the country and the fact that most jobs require you to be bi-lingual now!

13 posted on 02/03/2004 5:13:07 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: 45Auto They're pretty stupid, I'm afraid. Who knows what they'll do?

14 posted on 02/03/2004 5:14:51 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: Scenic Sounds One of the things that has always irritated me the most about this immigration mess is the usual absence of any legitimate political debate. I agree! But it's up to us to force them to talk about it. Every political campaign we attend, every chance we get, get in their face.

15 posted on 02/03/2004 5:16:55 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

To: Sabertooth; FITZ Ping

16 posted on 02/03/2004 5:17:38 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

1 posted on 02/03/2004 6:50:14 PM PST by abigail2
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To: cripplecreek; janetgreen; EternalVigilance; paul51; 45Auto; Scenic Sounds
I'm sorry about all this. But here is the thread again.
2 posted on 02/03/2004 6:53:23 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: abigail2; F16Fighter
The American public has always been against legalizing illegals. When polled they’ve also shown solid support for militarizing the borders. The president knows this, and yet is determined to go against the law and the people anyway. Why?

Excellent question.

it is becoming increasingly clear that Republicans too often are also doing the bidding of ethnic groups and big business interests.

And there's the answer.

3 posted on 02/03/2004 6:54:46 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: abigail2
HATING THE SIN; LOVING THE SINNER

How about loving the sin; hating the sinner.

That way you can enjoy yoursdelf to the fullest and then blame it on your ex.

So9

4 posted on 02/03/2004 6:56:21 PM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
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To: fabian; Alamo-Girl; HangFire; ALOHA RONNIE; feinswinesuksass; DoughtyOne; Mercuria; janetgreen; ...
Ping to new post of article....:)
5 posted on 02/03/2004 6:56:35 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: Servant of the 9
Has a nice ring to it! LOL! But I think that's not what Patrick is saying.
6 posted on 02/03/2004 6:57:45 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: abigail2; Landru; sultan88; jla; FBD; iceskater; Corin Stormhands; cherry_bomb88; MeekOneGOP
"I cannot be comfortable either in rubber-stamping the president’s behavior. We must oppose this illegal alien scam with everything we have."

Very good post...thanks fer sharing.

FReegards...MUD

7 posted on 02/03/2004 7:00:52 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: abigail2
I'm going to write in Tancredo and vote for Bush, praying he doesn't start this cocamamie amnesty plan.
8 posted on 02/03/2004 7:01:42 PM PST by cyborg
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To: paul51
"All this whining about Pres Bush is getting tired. People will have a choice when they vote. Most likely , it will be between Pres Bush and kerry. Vote for whoever you think will do the best job. The notion that you have to like everything your candidate does or even says is looney. Moreover, if someone decides not to vote, they have no business yapping about anything at all."

Paul, your post gives the impression that you believe voters should just go to the polls once every couple of years and then shut up and take whatever our elected leaders dish out in the interim. This "whining about Pres Bush" you decry is being done in large part by folks who supported his narrow election in '00 and would like to feel good enough about his performance to enthusiastically support his reelection in '04. IMHO, this is Constructive Criticism and is to be applauded, not derided.

FReegards...MUD

9 posted on 02/03/2004 7:07:20 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mr. Mojo; abigail2
>>It is becoming increasingly clear that Republicans too often are also doing the bidding of ethnic groups and big business interests.<<

"And there's the answer."

Ergo, conservatives are mere pawns being held hostage by a RINO Party intent on having its cake and eating it too.

Quite frankly, the ONLY card Dubya has left to play with the conservative wing of the RINO-dominated GOP is his holding of one BIG carrot dangled waay high in the air -- those crucial potential appointments of new USSC justices.

If NOT for that, the President would be told to stuff his liberal domestic agenda AND his chances for the '04 Presidency.

10 posted on 02/03/2004 7:10:44 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: Mudboy Slim
I could not agree with you more heartily.

Time for a whole lot of people to grow up and face reality.

We can come out of this year's elections smelling like a rose if we get off our duffs and make things happen.

Armies that wait for the battle to come to them almost always lose. The GOP is infamous for that, and if we can help it, we can't allow it to happen now. The stakes are too high.
11 posted on 02/03/2004 7:12:39 PM PST by EternalVigilance ("I like being free and that makes me an idiot, I suppose.")
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To: F16Fighter
To that I would add his foreign and defense policies.

Later on...
12 posted on 02/03/2004 7:13:43 PM PST by EternalVigilance ("I like being free and that makes me an idiot, I suppose.")
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To: F16Fighter
"...conservatives are mere pawns being held hostage by a RINO Party intent on having its cake and eating it too."

Before you write off the whole Republican Party, let's not forget that many of these folks are the same people who rode into the Congress in '94 full of "radical" reform proposals and a determination to reign in BigGuv'ment expansionism. Problem is, those same folks don't wanna undercut the Leader of their Party and this Nation in a time of war. If we can get Dubyuh's attention, I believe many GOP Congressmen and even some Senators would welcome a return to conservatism.

"Quite frankly, the ONLY card Dubya has left to play with the conservative wing of the RINO-dominated GOP is his holding of one BIG carrot dangled waay high in the air -- those crucial potential appointments of new USSC justices."

That's not really true, F16...Social Security privatization is a hugely conservative issue, as is making permanent the tax cuts that were temporarily passed in Dubyuh's first term. Also, imagine the damage that could be inflicted upon this Country were we to make John Kerry the Commander-in-Chief in a War against Terror that is not yet halfway won.

"If NOT for that, the President would be told to stuff his liberal domestic agenda AND his chances for the '04 Presidency."

You could be right, but this World is not safe enough to allow the DemonRATS to retake the reins just yet...it is much more advisable to force change in Dubyuh's direction between now and November, thereby setting the tone for a much more staunchly-Conservative second term.

FReegards...MUD

13 posted on 02/03/2004 7:24:47 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: EternalVigilance; PhiKapMom; MeekOneGOP; d14truth; joanie-f; Marysecretary; Alamo-Girl
"Time for a whole lot of people to grow up and face reality. We can come out of this year's elections smelling like a rose if we get off our duffs and make things happen. Armies that wait for the battle to come to them almost always lose. The GOP is infamous for that..."

Exactly...next November has all the potential in the World fer being a watershed election for conservatism in America. The Senate is replete with DemonRATS bailing ship in States that are rightfully GOP strongholds, we've got a war-time POTUS leading the way in a very promising economy, and the RATS are most likely gonna nominate a Northeastern Lib'ral who makes Teddy Kennedy's voting record look almost Reaganesque!! Heck, how can we lose?! Well, we could become timid and begin adopting the DemonRAT's Agenda and thereby alienate those who worked so hard to get the GOP--and Bush--to where we are!!

It's up to US, the RightWing Base of the GOP, to do everything in our Power to insure that we are not marginalized or taken fer granted!! Sure, we won't win every policy argument, but we can win our share if we refuse to back down or be cowed by the MilquetoastModerates who all-too-often seem to have the ear of this President!!

Stay true to our conservative principles and next November promises to be a '84-style landslide, imho...MUD

14 posted on 02/03/2004 7:35:37 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim; EternalVigilance; F16Fighter
I like to think that if the President knew the real facts, and the enormous opposition there is from average people he would change his policy. But how to get that message to him? I propose that we get off our duffs and try to get on TV and in the news wherever we can. I have observed Rev. Peterson in action and he has a way of getting the attention when all the forces that be try to prevent him from getting it. I remember one L.A. city counsel meeting on gun control. I forget what he did but he did something totally outlandish!! No other 2nd amendment people got any press but Jesse did!! Go to campaign debates, both Dems and Reps and make sure you get on camera. Any event that you can get coverage. Don't just preach to the choir, but go everywhere.

Any other ideas?

15 posted on 02/03/2004 7:49:10 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: abigail2
Good essay. This is why we have separation of powers, is it not? But a...what does the likes of someone like me do when his representatives make Chairman Mao look like a moderate?
16 posted on 02/03/2004 7:54:40 PM PST by Paulie
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To: Paulie
I don't know. But I do know that this is America. Home of the Revolutionaries who fought the British Empire and won! MOst of them were no bodies like us. Let's get really creative!!
17 posted on 02/03/2004 8:02:25 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: abigail2
"I like to think that if the President knew the real facts, and the enormous opposition there is from average people he would change his policy. But how to get that message to him?"

On this Immigration issue, the POTUS may just be unreachable, but we've still got our Congressfolks to stem the tide. In that case, Dubyuh would get the bennies he seeks from the Hispanic community, but his Amnesty plan would still never see the light of day.

"I propose that we get off our duffs and try to get on TV and in the news wherever we can....Don't just preach to the choir, but go everywhere."

This is the sorta energy that the GOP garners when we pursue a steadily conservative agenda...the biggest problem with Rove/Dubyuh's Triangulation Strategy is that it alienates the base and quells this sorta enthusiasm and I can't see where it attracts many Lib'rals to our side!! Dubyuh seems to be getting the message lately on spending and that's a great start, but he needs to stick with his more conservative instincts between now and November--and into his second term, of course--and the next five years promise to be banner years for the Country and the GOP!!

FReegards...MUD

18 posted on 02/03/2004 8:05:13 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: budwiesest; EdZep; Jethro Tull; Arator; Willie Green; mit; HalfIrish; backhoe; AuntB
"The Times They Are A'Changin'"
(To be sung to Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are A-Changin'")

Come gather round, Sheeple...in office and home...
And admit that corruption in DeeCee has grown!!
Then, demand that Slick's TREASON shall not be condoned!!
WE MUST FIGHT!! The Nation's worth savin'!!
Country, better stop sleepin' or yer souls Left will own...
Folks, the times they are a'changin'...

Come, blow-dried twit Networks who tyrannize with your "spin"...
EX-Prez'dent has spied...WE MUST NOW INDICT HIM!!
And CONVICT Bill's goons...then WE'LL IMPRISON SLICK!!
Yes, Limbaugh's sellin' TRUTH 'bout Slick's TREASON!!
Left's poltroons, y'know, we'll be FReepin' the Net!!
Press, the times they are a'changin'...

Come Senators, Congressmen, please heed our call...
Please stand up fer Justice...please tear down Slick's walls!!
Folks, watch how you vote...'cuz we're watchin' y'all!!
Battle fer hearts and minds rages...
We'll soon FReep yer meetings and clatter yer halls...
Pols, the times they are a'changin'...

Come mothers and fathers throughout the Land...
Look in yer kids' eyes...they are yer Scottish Clan...
Yer sons and yer daughters...look to you, MAKE YER STAND!!!
Left's Cold War has moved to this Nation!!
Please get out and help us...AIN'T PATRIOTISM GRAND?!!
Parents, the times they are a'changin'...

(Excellent harp jammin')

The line has been drawn...foundation's been cast!!
WE'LL GIT T-Mac NOW...THEN IMPRISON SLICK LAST!!
Welcome Prez'dent Bush...Ashcroft, get off yer A$$...
New World Order is rapidly fadin'!!
And the People's Power'll be returned at last...
Ohhh, the times they are a'changin'!!

FReegards...MUD
19 posted on 02/03/2004 8:10:48 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim
In your posts I see the kind of attitude and enthusiasm and principle that we need to accomplish all you say.

Amen!
20 posted on 02/03/2004 8:12:50 PM PST by EternalVigilance ("I like being free and that makes me an idiot, I suppose.")
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To: abigail2
"But I do know that this is America. Home of the Revolutionaries..."

Indeed it is!

21 posted on 02/03/2004 8:24:36 PM PST by Paulie
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To: EternalVigilance; M. Thatcher; holdonnow; Budge; Rush Limbaugh; blackie; Las Vegas Dave
In all honesty, I've been frustrated as all git out by this Adminsitration's swerves to the Left on all-too-many domestic issues, but still have a genuine respect fer Dubyuh and believe he has a conservative core to which we can appeal. The thing is, I believe he is so focused on winning this War on Terror that he is willing to listen to his more Milquetoast Moderate advisors on domestic policy when they tell him that he needs to move to the Left to win next November. Personally, I think that's horrible advice becuz it makes him look like he's got no conservative principles that he is unwilling to violate. Even when Reagan was forced to compromise his principles, I at least got the feeling that he knew what was the correct path to take, but simply knew that he would be unable to achieve it with the DemonRATS controlling both houses of Congress. My biggest frustration with Dubyuh has been that he often sets a Leftist course to outflank the Lib'rals and it undercuts the conservatives principles that shaped the GOP and made the differences in the parties so blatantly obvious.

No wonder the Conservative Base of the GOP feels betrayed!! But lately it appears that the message might be getting through to Dubyuh as he's come out with a proposal to limit growth in discretionary spending to 1% next year and then set out a list of 128 programs that are to be ended or gutted in the upcoming budget. This is a very good start in the right direction, IMHO.

FReegards...MUD

22 posted on 02/03/2004 8:30:03 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim
I'm dizzy!
23 posted on 02/03/2004 8:31:08 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: Mudboy Slim
Paul, your post gives the impression that you believe voters should just go to the polls once every couple of years and then shut up and take whatever our elected leaders dish out in the interim

I guess I missed the part where I said that. The article discusses the pending political suicide of the GOP vis a vis the immigration action. It does so in a near hysterical tone. The WH is full of political strategists that were astute enough to get Pres Bush elected in an election where he was probably viewed as less competent than he will be this time around against an opponent that I think was more formidable than kerry will be. Additionally, congress is full of politicians that will probably not self implode by doing something obviously stupid. I believe the WH and the congress have gotten the message from the voters re immigration. The Pres didn't even mention it in his SOTU message. Moreover, he has already heard from the GOP in congress on this issue. My comments were regarding the gist of the article and a (I believe) totally unnecessary call to action presented in an almost emergency like manner. My comments had nothing to do with political action in general nor the immigration problem as it is today.

24 posted on 02/03/2004 8:32:53 PM PST by paul51
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To: paul51
"Paul, your post gives the impression that you believe voters should just go to the polls once every couple of years and then shut up and take whatever our elected leaders dish out in the interim..."

"I guess I missed the part where I said that."

You just called it "whining" when folks complain about Dubyuh's domestic policy and I prefer to view it as constructive criticism of the performance of the folks we voted to put into office. FReepers are a unique breed 'cuz we tend to pay more attention to these issues than the average folks who talk to pollsters. When we--who voted fer Dubyuh and contributed to his campaign and even rushed the courthouse where the ballots were be recounted and recounted in December '00--when we start bitchin', it makes political sense fer Dubyuh's advisors to pay attention, imho.

"The article discusses the pending political suicide of the GOP vis a vis the immigration action. It does so in a near hysterical tone."

I guess I missed the hysteria, my FRiend...to me, it seemed more resolute than anything else.

"The WH is full of political strategists that were astute enough to get Pres Bush elected in an election where he was probably viewed as less competent than he will be this time around against an opponent that I think was more formidable than Kerry will be. Additionally, congress is full of politicians that will probably not self implode by doing something obviously stupid. I believe the WH and the congress have gotten the message from the voters re immigration. The Pres didn't even mention it in his SOTU message."

This is very good, imho...some more cynical than I would even go so far as to assume that perhaps Dubyuh presented his plan knowing it was going to be DOA in Congress just so he could get credit from the Hispanic community fer proposing it while knowing he never had to fear it becoming law.

"Moreover, he has already heard from the GOP in congress on this issue. My comments were regarding the gist of the article and a (I believe) totally unnecessary call to action presented in an almost emergency like manner. My comments had nothing to do with political action in general nor the immigration problem as it is today."

Fair enough...I mistook your comments as deriding citizen activism against issues or policies we disagree with. IMHO, our elected leaders benefit greatly from our ongoing input during the interval between elections...and if they heed our input, I believe they stand a much better chance of enjoying reelection.

FReegards...MUD

25 posted on 02/03/2004 8:48:31 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim
In lieu of cutting and pasting

To me, the article focused more on the risk the GOP was taking re re election vs criticism of policy therefore my whining remark. Perhaps I misinterpreted something.

One man's resolution is another's hysteria

some more cynical than I Nothing cynical here. I think that was a consideration

Pres Bush needs my support (and he has to earn it) but not my advice (I'm pretty sure).

I hope we cleared all that up now

26 posted on 02/03/2004 8:58:54 PM PST by paul51
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To: paul51
"Pres Bush needs my support (and he has to earn it) but not my advice (I'm pretty sure)."

I don't consider it "advice" as much as "citizenry input", and you may be surprised at just how handy that can be from time to time. If we on the Right don't make our wishes known, we leave the playing field to be dominated by the Left's insane rantings.

"I hope we cleared all that up now..."

We're clear, my FRiend.

FReegards...MUD

27 posted on 02/03/2004 9:04:22 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: paul51
I don't think the article was hysterical, perhaps that is me, the poster :) But we are the government in America whether those we have elected realize it or not. If we don't stand up we deserve what we get. What state do you live in? I live in Mexifornia...coming to a city near you...
28 posted on 02/03/2004 9:08:29 PM PST by abigail2 (My father didn't tell me how to live; he lived, and let me watch him do it...C. B. Kelland)
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To: Mudboy Slim; hchutch
Before you write off the whole Republican Party, let's not forget that many of these folks are the same people who rode into the Congress in '94 full of "radical" reform proposals and a determination to reign in BigGuv'ment expansionism.

And discovered that "true conservatives" were, like Paine's summer soldiers and sunshine patriots, nowhere to be found when it came to lending support in the 1995 budget crisis. The Dems went after them hammer and tongs--and the "true conservatives" and "grassroots activists" didn't march to the sound of the guns, they ran in the opposite direction as fast as their feet could carry them.

29 posted on 02/03/2004 9:09:28 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Maj. Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
""true conservatives" were, like Paine's summer soldiers and sunshine patriots, nowhere to be found when it came to lending support in the 1995 budget crisis."

As I recall it, the GOP's unfortunate and unseemly retreat from the Clinton-produced Guv'mentShutdown cannot be blamed on the principled RightWing as much as the weak-kneed RINOs in both the Senate and House. If you are specifically referring to Gingrich and his inner circle, I would submit that Newt's less a principled conservative--a "true conservative", if you will--than a political opportunist.

"The Dems went after them hammer and tongs--and the "true conservatives" and "grassroots activists" didn't march to the sound of the guns, they ran in the opposite direction as fast as their feet could carry them."

This is revisionist history, Poohbah, the fact is we just didn't have enough principled conservatives to withstand a DemonRAT Presidential veto and the defections of the RINO branch of our Party!! Sure, I believe the Republican Party was right in shutting down government and shouldda stood their ground until the RATS broke, but to blame this failure on the RightWing base of the GOP is disingenuous at best.

FReegards...MUD

30 posted on 02/03/2004 9:28:49 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim; Landru; FBD; sultan88; snopercod; First_Salute; Minuteman23
Stay true to our conservative principles and next November promises to be a '84-style landslide, imho...MUD

I have rarely (if ever?) disagreed on anything of political importance with you, Steve, but I’m afraid we part ways on this one.

Staying true to my conservative principles will no longer allow me to support yet another so-called conservative leader who has bartered those principles away to the highest (political or monetary) bidder.

Please bear with me here and read this to the end. If you still disagree with me, I will chalk it up as a genuine divergence of opinion between two intelligent, well-informed conservatives. But I’m hoping that, in this specific instance, maybe there are some facts of which you are as yet unaware.

Bush’s immigration proposal has three main thrusts:

(1) It grants legality (via temporary work visas) to the approximately ten million illegals already in the country (Do you realize that that figure represents almost 3½% of our total population? That’s a mighty huge chunk of humanity, and a mighty huge potential voting block, and a mighty huge special interest group, and a mighty huge drain on our already over-extended social services fabric).

(2) These visas would not only apply to illegals who are already here, but would also be offered to aliens living abroad who have been offered a job by a US employer. The administration claims that there are not enough Americans to fill the available American jobs, and that this will help fill the void.

(3) The visa holders would be candidates for a green card. The lid on green card applications would be lifted. (Note: one of the most insidious tentacles attached to the obtaining of a green card is the privilege of sponsoring the immigration of one’s relatives – parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles. Talk about a Pandora’s box!)

My first (and most vehement) objection to these ludicrous proposals is that nowhere contained in them is even a hint of a solution to what caused this problem to begin with. What are we doing to stem the tide of illegal immigration? Why put a (rotten) band-aid on a sore that is still bleeding profusely? My logic tells me that, rather than stemming waves of illegals streaming across our borders, this idiotic ‘solution’ will instead encourage even more. We’ll need another amnesty program five years from now for the additional ten million who will see this as an open invitation to suck America dry.

Not only does this program fail to punish people who have come across our borders illegally. It rewards those who, in addition to that first crime, have also gained employment. How does an illegal gain employment in this country? He fakes the documentation required to obtain work (birth certificate, social security number, etc.) And, if the illegal hasn’t faked his own personal documentation, then his employer has hired him without the proper documentation. So one or both of them are being rewarded for committing one crime on top of another.

And how about the drain on social services that these people (and those who will inevitably follow them) are going to cause? Anyone who believes that they will not be using up more taxpayer services than they contribute to is living in a dream world.

As this article says, The American public has always been [and still is, by a huge majority] against legalizing illegals. So the bottom-line question is Why is the President doing this? To solve the problem? It solves nothing. If anything, exacerbates the problem of illegal immigration by making it more attractive. The only benefit is a political one. A genuine conservative does not override the will of the people to gain political favors from minorities. That falls into the leftists' camp. And when the line of demarcation between the two camps blurs, it's time to take a step back and ask yourself who is erasing the line?

The only thing this President has done that has made me proud that I voted for him is his handling of the war in Iraq, in general. That’s it. He has signed into law every single big-spending, unconstitutional, socialist bill that has crossed his desk. Not one veto! He has signed on to the continued confiscation of our hard-earned money and spends it on new and improved bloated entitlement programs, redistributing our wealth so that work and success is deemed secondary to sloth, mediocrity, and a socialist nanny-state. He has signed into law an act that would allow the state to subvert more of our God-given individual liberties than any previous act or law every passed in this republic, all in the name of homeland security.

I am beginning to fear that liberty may someday be more at risk as a result of creeping socialism and homeland security measures than it is through the threat of external terrorism itself.

Of one thing I am certain. The ability of terrorism to wreak havoc here in our homeland is inversely proportional to the amount of individual liberty and prosperity we enjoy as a united people. And, in that respect, our own President is weakening our defenses with every stroke of his free-flowing pen.

~ joanie

31 posted on 02/03/2004 9:31:13 PM PST by joanie-f (All that we know and love depends on three simple things: sunlight, soil, and the fact that it rains)
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To: Mudboy Slim; hchutch
As I recall it, the GOP's unfortunate and unseemly retreat from the Clinton-produced Guv'mentShutdown cannot be blamed on the principled RightWing as much as the weak-kneed RINOs in both the Senate and House.

You recall most incorrectly.

If you are specifically referring to Gingrich and his inner circle, I would submit that Newt's less a principled conservative--a "true conservative", if you will--than a political opportunist.

I was not referring to Gingrich--or any other elected official. I was referring to the "true conservative" and "grass-roots" activist groups.

You whine about the GOP being "weak-kneed."

You know WHY they were weak-kneed?

Because their mail--their snail mail, the stuff that matters--ran 10-1 against their effort.

"True conservatives" were contacted in a well-nigh desperate effort to counter the steamroller.

They were no-shows.

This is revisionist history, Poohbah, the fact is we just didn't have enough principled conservatives to withstand a DemonRAT Presidential veto and the defections of the RINO branch of our Party!!

I was there, trying to organize a letter-writing campaign. The "true conservatives" flat-out refused to send any letters supporting the shutdown unless every jot and tittle of their demands was complied with immediately--and some of their demands were ludicrous, and would have required Democrat participation (removing Clinton and Gore from office being the most noteworthy of these).

The "RINO branch" of the GOP was able to argue that the hang-tough strategy was a sure-fire loser--and the mail bags supported their argument, thanks to the "true conservatives" stabbing them in the back.

Sure, I believe the Republican Party was right in shutting down government and shouldda stood their ground until the RATS broke, but to blame this failure on the RightWing base of the GOP is disingenuous at best.

In other words, you were perfectly content to simply hang the GOP out there to do your bidding without any support. You wanted the goodies, but didn't want to do the frickin' work.

There's a technical term for that

Parasite.

32 posted on 02/03/2004 9:47:21 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Maj. Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: joanie-f
"I have rarely (if ever?) disagreed on anything of political importance with you, Steve, but I’m afraid we part ways on this one."

Believe me, I'm paying attention...we are usually of one mind.

"Staying true to my conservative principles will no longer allow me to support yet another so-called conservative leader who has bartered those principles away to the highest (political or monetary) bidder."

My voting record to date has been Reagan/Bush/Bush/Dole/Bush, and that second Bush vote was the hardest fer me to swallow, but I couldn't stomach Perot and I believe I foresaw what an embarrassment Clinton would ultimately become. That said, I've considered--and continue to reconsider--not voting fer Dubyuh due to his domestic policy performance over the last few months.

"If you still disagree with me, I will chalk it up as a genuine divergence of opinion between two intelligent, well-informed conservatives. But I’m hoping that, in this specific instance, maybe there are some facts of which you are as yet unaware."

I'm sure there is always going to be something I can learn from you, my FRiend.

"Bush’s immigration proposal has three main thrusts:
(1) It grants legality (via temporary work visas) to the approximately ten million illegals already in the country (Do you realize that that figure represents almost 3½% of our total population? That’s a mighty huge chunk of humanity, and a mighty huge potential voting block, and a mighty huge special interest group, and a mighty huge drain on our already over-extended social services fabric).
(2) These visas would not only apply to illegals who are already here, but would also be offered to aliens living abroad who have been offered a job by a US employer. The administration claims that there are not enough Americans to fill the available American jobs, and that this will help fill the void.
(3) The visa holders would be candidates for a green card. The lid on green card applications would be lifted. (Note: one of the most insidious tentacles attached to the obtaining of a green card is the privilege of sponsoring the immigration of one’s relatives – parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles. Talk about a Pandora’s box!)
My first (and most vehement) objection to these ludicrous proposals is that nowhere contained in them is even a hint of a solution to what caused this problem to begin with. What are we doing to stem the tide of illegal immigration? Why put a (rotten) band-aid on a sore that is still bleeding profusely? My logic tells me that, rather than stemming waves of illegals streaming across our borders, this idiotic ‘solution’ will instead encourage even more. We’ll need another amnesty program five years from now for the additional ten million who will see this as an open invitation to suck America dry.

Alright, Joanie, let me stop here...I do not support Dubyuh's proposal for Amnesty fer Illegal Immigrants in any way whatsoever. All your points are well-taken and valid, it's an absolutely STOOOOPID proposal on so many fronts, and I feel it should never see the light of day in Congress!! That said, is it not DeadOnArrival in the House?! I saw Congressperson Jackson-Lee arguing vehemently against it on TeeVee the other night and believe plenty of GOP Congressfolks will also argue against it...is it not feasible that Dubyuh knew this going in and simply proposed it knowing it was DOA? Admittedly, I'd prefer our POTUS stuck to conservative principles and demanded that lawbreakers bwe held accountable and that we give Illegals time to return to their hometown in exchange for the opportunity to get in line with folks who were trying to obtain residency in this Country via legal means...I'd even support giving some consideration to employer recommendations as to their having jobs in America when/if they were to return, but we must enforce our borders or our Country is sure to crumble from the inside out. My point, though, is that perhaps Dubyuh's proposal was a crass political calculation and he never meant for it to become law...if that comes to pass, could you still support the man?

"Not only does this program fail to punish people who have come across our borders illegally. It rewards those who, in addition to that first crime, have also gained employment. How does an illegal gain employment in this country? He fakes the documentation required to obtain work (birth certificate, social security number, etc.) And, if the illegal hasn’t faked his own personal documentation, then his employer has hired him without the proper documentation. So one or both of them are being rewarded for committing one crime on top of another."

After giving these folks ample opportunity to return to their homelands, I agree that we should hold both employee and employer responsible for their law-breaking...rewarding the breaking of our laws should never become official government policy!!

"And how about the drain on social services that these people (and those who will inevitably follow them) are going to cause? Anyone who believes that they will not be using up more taxpayer services than they contribute to is living in a dream world. As this article says, The American public has always been [and still is, by a huge majority] against legalizing illegals. So the bottom-line question is Why is the President doing this? To solve the problem? It solves nothing. If anything, exacerbates the problem of illegal immigration by making it more attractive. The only benefit is a political one. A genuine conservative does not override the will of the people to gain political favors from minorities. That falls into the leftists' camp. And when the line of demarcation between the two camps blurs, it's time to take a step back and ask yourself who is erasing the line?"

Like I indicated above, there is nothing about Bush's Amnesty Plan that I support, but my only point is that I believe this can be defeated at the Congressional level. If this turns out to be the case, and Dubyuh doesn't use precious political capital making it a reality, is it not possible that Dubyuh was simply using it as an opportunity to gain the respect and trust of the hispanic community with no real expectation that it would ever become law?

"The only thing this President has done that has made me proud that I voted for him is his handling of the war in Iraq, in general. That’s it. He has signed into law every single big-spending, unconstitutional, socialist bill that has crossed his desk. Not one veto! He has signed on to the continued confiscation of our hard-earned money and spends it on new and improved bloated entitlement programs, redistributing our wealth so that work and success is deemed secondary to sloth, mediocrity, and a socialist nanny-state. He has signed into law an act that would allow the state to subvert more of our God-given individual liberties than any previous act or law every passed in this republic, all in the name of homeland security."

I've got problems with Dubyuh's domestic performance to date as well, my FRiend, and I am by no means unconditionally pledging my support to Bush at this time. Still, I believe there is a distinct possibility that Bush can be persuaded to toe a more conservative line. Just since the recent outcry in response to the StateOfTheUnion address, he has amended his discretionary spending increase from 4% to 1% and proposed the ending or significant reduction in spending of 128 programs. My point is, Dubyuh's a politician and can be impacted by the yearnings of the RightWing...DemonRATS couldn't care less what we say, no matter how long or hard we say it!!

"I am beginning to fear that liberty may someday be more at risk as a result of creeping socialism and homeland security measures than it is through the threat of external terrorism itself."

I'd say that's already a given, and I look forward to the day that we declare "VICTORY" in the War on Terror and legislate the restoration of our Civil Liberties that have been compromised over the last 25-60 years!!

"Of one thing I am certain. The ability of terrorism to wreak havoc here in our homeland is inversely proportional to the amount of individual liberty and prosperity we enjoy as a united people. And, in that respect, our own President is weakening our defenses with every stroke of his free-flowing pen."

Nobody can agree more with you that Dubyuh's spending orgy is anathema to everything conservatives hold dear; however, I retain the hope that we can regain his attention between now and November to the extent that he can help mend his ways and convince him to not follow the ill-conceived MilqueToast path of his father. I am thoroughly convinced that no amount of pressure we could exert would get similar consideration from Senator Kerry and his MerryBand of Lib'rals!!

FReegards...MUD

33 posted on 02/03/2004 10:18:25 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim
I don't consider it "advice" as much as "citizenry input", and you may be surprised at just how handy that can be from time to time

My elected public servants from the WH down to the local mayor rec. my input on a regular basis. I agree that's our responsibility. Getting back to the cynicism for a moment, I believe Bush team did exactly what you suggested. However, I think there are additional dimensions to it. The carrot part for the Hispanic benefit is too obvious. The better part is how it paints the dims in a corner. They either agree with the Pres (not likely) or the more vocal extreme of the party screams that it doesn't go far enough which totally alienates the majority of the voters in this country. This, to a political novice like me, borders on genius and it is another of many political strategies that I think this group is really good at. Another reason why I’m not particularly concerned about the political ramifications of the subject of the article. Again, not to say the immigration problem does not concern me.

34 posted on 02/03/2004 10:18:26 PM PST by paul51
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To: abigail2
I live in Mexifornia...

Somewhat regrettably, likewise. A lot of work to do here!

35 posted on 02/03/2004 10:20:22 PM PST by paul51
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To: abigail2
Amnesty: The boycotting of an election.
36 posted on 02/03/2004 10:30:13 PM PST by lewislynn (I'll give "the rebate" back if I can have my country back....Mr. President.)
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To: joanie-f; Mudboy Slim
"My first (and most vehement) objection to these ludicrous proposals is that nowhere contained in them is even a hint of a solution to what caused this problem to begin with. What are we doing to stem the tide of illegal immigration? Why put a (rotten) band-aid on a sore that is still bleeding profusely? My logic tells me that, rather than stemming waves of illegals streaming across our borders, this idiotic ‘solution’ will instead encourage even more...."

Wholeheartedly agree and your metaphor is great. This is bad policy as well as bad politics and I pray Conress will have the good sense to reject it. But when I look at the good things Bush has done (Southhack recently posted a great list), I feel that the good things he has accomplished more than outweigh the bad. He certainly deserves re-election.

37 posted on 02/03/2004 11:08:55 PM PST by sultan88 ("I went down Virginia, seeking shelter from the storm...")
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To: abigail2
bttt
38 posted on 02/03/2004 11:56:45 PM PST by lainde (Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
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To: joanie-f; Mudboy Slim; Landru; FBD; sultan88
Great post Joanie.
"What are we doing to stem the tide of illegal immigration? Why put a (rotten) band-aid on a sore that is still bleeding profusely?"?

Ah, but you see, Joanie...that is where misguided uh, I mean...*compassionate conservatism* comes in, and saves the day! ( otherwise known as “creeping socialism”...)

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.

We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on.

It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain."
~ Frederic Bastiat -’The Law’

39 posted on 02/04/2004 12:42:41 AM PST by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: Mudboy Slim
Regards to you, Slim- I generally find myself nodding in agreement with your comments, as I do now.
40 posted on 02/04/2004 3:01:56 AM PST by backhoe (--30--)
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To: Mudboy Slim; *immigrant_list; *Election President; *President Bush list

41 posted on 02/04/2004 3:34:22 AM PST by MeekOneGOP (Check out this HILARIOUS story !! haha!: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1060580/posts)
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To: joanie-f
I have a somewhat different take on immigration policy.

As I understand it, until 1882 anybody could come to the U.S. and enjoy the rights and responsibilities of citizens. The fact that you were here made you an American. Maybe there was some simple process an immigrant had to go through in order to vote, I don't know the details.

Of course, back then it wasn't a real problem. America didn't have the income tax as a conduit for the taking money by force from one group and distributing it to another via various programs. The federal government didn't force hospitals to provide "free" medical care for those who couldn't pay and shift the costs to those who could. Property owners weren't taxed to pay to teach English to the newcomers. The newcomers were on their own.

Then, in 1822 congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, a law that forbid people born in China from becoming U.S. citizens. Based mainly on racial prejudice, the act was used against other Asian people as well. It remained law until 1943 when the Chinese and Americans were allies in World War II.

Then, in 1924, Congress passed another racist law: the National Origins Act. This law set quotas or specific limits on the numbers of people who could come from various countries. This was mostly designed to exclude Eastern (mostly Jews), and Southern Europeans (Italians), Japanese, and Hispanics.

In 1965, old quota system was changed to encourage immigration from Asia and Latin America. If I am not mistaken, the law was changed at that time in recognition of the fact that the Braceros were already here by the millions to pick our fruit and vegetables. ...and the Nisei were here by the millions to mow our lawns and grow our flowers.

Everything that Congress has done so far has been been either racist or mercantilist, and has made the problem worse. Me? I think the "immigration problem" will go away on it's own as soon as the "welfare state problem" is addressed. Of course that will never happen with the republocrats in charge.

I finally realized the other morning that there is a method to what seems to many of us to be madness in our "leaders". Here it is:

Our government is intentionally keeping wages down through immigration and prices down through trade policies in order to conceal the debasement of our currency.

42 posted on 02/04/2004 4:48:32 AM PST by snopercod (When the people are ready, a master will appear.)
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To: MeekOneGOP; abigail2; Ragtime Cowgirl; Alamo-Girl; dixiechick2000; onyx; PhilDragoo; Mia T; ...


Instant analysis November 2004:

dem votes:

Jews - 75%-85% (except a certain NY "village" - 110%)

Islamics - 80%-95%

Blacks - 80%-93% (Except in Ft. Lauderdale precincts - 120% 2000)

Hispanics - 65%-80%

Commies - 105%

Socialists - 120%

Illegal Aliens - 110% (over 5 million votes!)

Dead people - 2%-4%

Duplicate state/county votes - 1%-3% (NY/FL, NJ/FL in 2000!)

Non-existant voters - ½%-2%

Multiple voting - 2%-4% of total vote

Dogs & Cats & Jackasses - ¼%-1%

Convicted Felons - 75%-90% (based on FL 2000 which was about 75%!)

Teacher's Unions - 80%-95%

Other Unions - 75%-85%

Libertarians - 15%-30%

Criminals - 80%-95%

Actual democrats with brains - 5%-8%




An election boycott is a vote for Klinton II on Steroids!

Stay home in November like in 1992; hand FKerry the WH keys and that football he will never ever fake a throw; but never dare to open your yaps again!




Just "sending my message"........



OK to back to reading about Janet Jackson and that little jerk who was with her now -



43 posted on 02/04/2004 7:24:51 AM PST by autoresponder (DEAN GOES NUTS: http://00access.tripod.com/Dean.html http://00access.tripod.com/SlickWillie.html)
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Boycott? Sit out?

How do you boycott or sit out an election when both a vote or a non-vote can help one or another candidate win or lose? Sounds like a cop-out.

44 posted on 02/04/2004 7:53:11 AM PST by Consort
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To: autoresponder

45 posted on 02/04/2004 8:44:55 AM PST by MeekOneGOP (Check out this HILARIOUS story !! haha!: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1060580/posts)
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To: Mudboy Slim
MUB ~ there is no power in complaint! :)
46 posted on 02/04/2004 9:14:58 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: autoresponder; MeekOneGOP
WTG! You're showing passion. Hey Meek, I'm with you --- auto deserved a Meek-a-Bump.
47 posted on 02/04/2004 9:18:55 AM PST by onyx (Your secrets are safe with me and all my friends.)
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To: blackie
"...there is no power in complaint!"

I beg to differ, my FRiend...when long-loyal voting groups express dismay over a particular issue (i.e. outta control spending or half-baked amnesty-fer-illegals programs), our leaders would be unwise to discount our views. You can label it "complaining" or even "whining", but the outrage over spending has resulted in Dubyuh's revising his spending proposals on non-defense discretionary spending from 4% growth to 1% in less that two weeks. And regarding Bush's proposed de-illegalization of illegals, he chose to ignore this prickly issue altogether in his SOTU the other night. On both issues, the base spoke up about it's outrage, and the political Powers-that-be adjusted their political calculations. IMHO, that's powerful.

FReegards...MUD

48 posted on 02/04/2004 9:38:23 AM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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To: Mudboy Slim
Enjoy you complaining. :)
49 posted on 02/04/2004 9:53:09 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: blackie
LOL...I much prefer cheerleading, as Dubyuh's actions vis a vis his War on Terror has allowed me to do. If "complaining" about his domestic performance results in a more conservative end policy, I'll consider it time and effort well spent.

FReegards...MUD

50 posted on 02/04/2004 9:57:51 AM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH Osama bil Clinton!!)
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