Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Evolution Critics Are Under Fire For Flaws in 'Intelligent Design'
Wall Street Journal ^ | Feb 13, 2004 | SHARON BEGLEY

Posted on 02/13/2004 3:14:29 AM PST by The Raven

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:51:05 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Even before Darwin, critics attacked the idea of biological evolution with one or another version of, "Evolve this!"

Whether they invoked a human, an eye, or the whip-like flagella that propel bacteria and sperm, the contention that natural processes of mutation and natural selection cannot explain the complexity of living things has been alive and well for 200 years.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creationuts; crevolist; evolution; intelligentdesign
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 621-628 next last
To: js1138; Elsie
I suppose that depends on the meaning of "different".

And "is"?

61 posted on 02/13/2004 9:30:28 AM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
It would seem like ALL creatures should be literally COVERED with all kinds of INEFFECTUAL 'features' then!!

The more complex the organism, the more often you find features that have little to no survivability benefit - right down to the DNA.

I bet if you took a few moments of thought, you could come up with a couple examples in your own body. Not everything in an organism is there for a specific purpose, sometimes things are just left over from earlier development.

Now, if we go to your ludicrous extreme of "literally covered with all kinds of INEFFECTUAL 'features,'" guess what happens. The sheer mass would then become limiting for survival and thus a pressure for elimination. But if there is no pressure for elimination, features tend to hang around for a long, long time.

62 posted on 02/13/2004 9:30:50 AM PST by Ophiucus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: AndrewC
A simple question for you and Dembski and Behe...

Why in the world are there different types of flagella?
63 posted on 02/13/2004 9:35:38 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: AndrewC
This directly impacts the assertion that TTSS evolved into flagella. Evidence shows that this is probably not true.

But as I said before, that does nothing to rescue the irreducible complexity of the flagellum. Either it came from a more compact structure, or resulted in a more compact structure - but either way, that more compact structure is also functional, so long as you don't buy into this artifical constraint that only things that do X are "functional". Or, alternately, the TTSS and the flagellum are both descendents from a common ancestor structure, but that obviously belies the irreducible complexity of the flagellum by its very nature.

One could, I suppose, argue that they're both the products of special creation, appearing sui generis, independently of one another as the products of some designer. But then again, I see no evidence to support that hypothesis at the moment.

64 posted on 02/13/2004 9:39:47 AM PST by general_re (Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke
Why in the world are there different types of flagella?

Why do we have trucks and cars?

65 posted on 02/13/2004 9:44:16 AM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: general_re
Dembski would have you believe that the only way to disprove the irreducible complexity of the flagellum is to show, in great detail, the exact evolutionary pathway that created it.

Years ago I was watching one of the last shows of the William F. Buckley. Jr. debate series on PBS, The topic was evolution vs. creationism. He had on his team an amazingly and disappointingly annoying man who repeatedly argued every point that the evolutionist team brought up by saying 'show me every step.' If every single step of evolution in fossil record could not be shown for an animal, he would immediately say that the process could not exist because steps were 'missing.' It didn't matter if work was ongoing or that million year old fossils are hard to find or anything. If every single step could not be laid at his feet, then the thing did not exist.

A woeful injustice to logic and thought and to the quality that I had come to expect from the series. Yet, it is a tactic of the creationist argument to expect.

66 posted on 02/13/2004 9:48:18 AM PST by Ophiucus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Celtjew Libertarian
Theologically, you have some real problems with your contention.

>>> Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Evolution requires death...millions of years. But the Bible teaches that sin did not enter into the world system until after Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden.

>>> Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Now all of creation suffers because of the curse brought on by the sin of Adam.

Additionally, Jesus said that Adam and Eve existed "from the beginning"...

>>> From Genesis 1 - Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
>>> From Genesis 2 - Matthew 19:5-6 and said, `FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

There is certainly more, but these verses stand in contradistinction to evolution. Check this article for more information. Two Histories of Death

Theistic Evolution: Future Shock

10 Dangers of Theistic Evolution

Some Questions for you

Evolution? It Doesn't Add Up

67 posted on 02/13/2004 9:49:45 AM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Prime Choice
That's been my view all along. I've never seen the idea of Divine Creation and evolution as mutually-exclusive (or even competing) ideas. In fact, I find it even more awe-inspiring to consider that God built living things to be so adaptable to non-optimal conditions.

Not to mention that he was willing to wait <Carl Sagan Mode> BILL-YUNS and BILL-YUNS </Carl Sagan Mode> years for humans to show up.

68 posted on 02/13/2004 9:52:37 AM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Maj. Vic Deakins, USAF)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Ophiucus
By that logic, I suppose the fact that there are gaps in my family tree means that I don't really have ancestors ;)
69 posted on 02/13/2004 9:53:37 AM PST by general_re (Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: general_re
Either it came from a more compact structure, or resulted in a more compact structure - but either way, that more compact structure is also functional, so long as you don't buy into this artifical constraint that only things that do X are "functional".

As I stated, the functionality under question is flagellar not virulence and that determines irreducibility. The argument is not whether something has any function( you can fill a balloon with water, air, or a present).

70 posted on 02/13/2004 9:57:08 AM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: AndrewC
When the intermediates or the ancestral-type III secretion systems are found, ping me, will ya? :)
71 posted on 02/13/2004 10:00:29 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: AndrewC; general_re
How do you drive a single car down two different roads at the same time?

Adaptability. Is a pickup truck a work vehicle, family vehicle, sport, towing, cargo?

Elements can adapt to new demands or be used for more than one function. The same neurotransmitter protein in the same organism can be stimulatory or inhibitory - it depends on which system it is in.

72 posted on 02/13/2004 10:01:55 AM PST by Ophiucus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
Then by extrapolating this rate backward, we can see just when the Moon decided to jump off the surface of the Earth??

That is Silly.

Read my post this evening, I will ping you.

73 posted on 02/13/2004 10:03:01 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: general_re
By that logic, I suppose the fact that there are gaps in my family tree means that I don't really have ancestors ;)

Bingo - and a nifty way of putting it.

74 posted on 02/13/2004 10:05:19 AM PST by Ophiucus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: AndrewC
As I stated, the functionality under question is flagellar not virulence and that determines irreducibility.

That's simply an artificial restriction on what it means for something to be "functional", though. If I take the wheels off of a skateboard, it's no longer a skateboard - it's basically just a plank of wood. But that doesn't mean that I can't use the the plank for something else, that it's functionless in and of itself - you have to evaluate it on its own merits, not based on what it is not. "Either it's a skateboard or it's useless" is a false dichotomy - there are lots of things you can do with the wood even in the absence of wheels.

75 posted on 02/13/2004 10:06:01 AM PST by general_re (Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Yeah, and thanks for the information in your previous post. I have, somewhere, links to a fairly extensive description of the TTSS and why the argument is for its devolution from a flagellar function. The TTSS appears in parasites and symbionts that display loss of function in other structures consistent with their environment.
76 posted on 02/13/2004 10:07:53 AM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
Well, for one thing, I'm Jewish, so references to the Christian testament aren't going to sway me too much. 8>)

But the quote from Romans 5:12 implies that it applies to man.... "death spread to all men." I have no problems with the idea that there is a point in evolution where there was a first man, who would've been Adam, whom God was prepared to give everlasting life to.

The Bible says man was created in God's likeness. Now, given that God is outside time and the universe, it doesn't seem likely that this is a physical likeness, but rather a spiritual one. God calls himself "I Am That I Am." Seems to me that the central likeness of man to God that separates us from the animals is the concept of "I am."

It is quite reasonable -- indeed, it is what I believe -- that Homo sapiens evolved to its present physical state, before Adam became the first human with the God-like realization, "I am."

77 posted on 02/13/2004 10:09:11 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: general_re
If I take the wheels off of a skateboard, it's no longer a skateboard

Right! Is it hard to make one? No, just get some wheels and a way to securely attach them. Trouble is, those extra items don't just drop off of non-complex things.

78 posted on 02/13/2004 10:12:27 AM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: biblewonk
We still end up with a compenent that is useless if not complete and whose completeness is overly complex to fall together by any random chance.

Not by random chance - it didn't just suddenly fall together in its finished form. It is a building and developing process, hence evolution. It starts small, simple, and limited and then develops into a larger, more complex, and more dynamic component.

79 posted on 02/13/2004 10:14:13 AM PST by Ophiucus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: biblewonk
The one I like is the example provided by the woodpecker. As I recall, it goes something like this. The woodpecker has 3 features which enable its feeding: the long stout beak, the shock-absorbing skull, and the extremely long tongue that wraps around the back of its skull. Take away any one of the 3, and the whole feeding process is destroyed.

So, did the woodpecker evolve all 3 at the same time? What are the chances? Which came last, the tongue, the beak, or (the "logical" choice) the shock-absorbing skull? Once all 3 pieces were in place, how and when did it evolve the instinct to feed the way it does?

I've no doubt the Evolutionist Church has the solution to this apparent puzzle.

80 posted on 02/13/2004 10:17:57 AM PST by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary. You have the right to be wrong.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 621-628 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson