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To: Alamo-Girl; restornu; edwin hubble; marron; unspun
...the universe cycles in this fashion - maturing to a point and starting over again -- or alternatively, that the universe both informs and is informed.

Alamo-Girl, the ancient Greek conception of Fate -- the World soul cycling in an out of potency, and men getting dragged willy-nilly along in its train for better or worse -- seems to be implicit in this observation.

Yet from a Christian point of view, the same statement can be read as an affirmation of the "two-way street" that obtains between God and man.

It seems to me that successful communication is always a "two-way street." Failing that, it seems we are left to the Greek conception of Fate to settle our issues for us.

Plato thought the universe was a living being possessing a soul that waxed and waned according to its own natural rhythm or time pulse. If a man got stuck with being alive during a bad patch, then bad luck to him. One must ride the cycle -- which is operating at a timescale that has no correspondence with the human timescale, and in fact uses eons where man might use hours to measure the "passage" of time. Man born at the wrong time gets to be a victim of this ride....

Christianity is ever optimistic, especially as compared with the Greek idea of Fate, which embroils all men for good or ill, regardless of their personal qualities, talents, or efforts.

This is an extraordinarily weird problem for the modern mind to contemplate. But it might do us some good to do try. :^)

19 posted on 02/15/2004 10:05:46 PM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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placemarker
20 posted on 02/15/2004 10:09:53 PM PST by js1138
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for your engaging reply! And I mean that quite literally because - whatever terms we use or where ever we look for clues - the issue commonly called predestination v free will must be resolved before a man can find meaning in life.

Of course, this is a much debated subject on the Religion Forum - as it should be - but it also should be debated among the secular and scientific posters, IMHO, because it has to do with personal accountability, social structures and the ilk.

It seems to me that successful communication is always a "two-way street." Failing that, it seems we are left to the Greek conception of Fate to settle our issues for us.

I strongly agree. Communication - or perhaps information to the materialists - is the only medium of free will.

In my view, reality includes both predestination and free will. Of course I see a spiritual realm as well as a natural realm. If one narrows his worldview to just the natural, strong determinism is the first inclination short of a two way information mechanism within the physical universe.

21 posted on 02/15/2004 10:26:07 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
"-- the World soul cycling in an out of potency, and men getting dragged willy-nilly along in its train for better or worse -- seems to be implicit in this observation.

Yet from a Christian point of view, the same statement can be read as an affirmation of the "two-way street" that obtains between God and man."

One of the great astronomical cycles-of-fate interpreted by an early culture in the neolithic times may have been the 'millwheel in the sky' of the circumpolar stars seen by nordic Europeans.
This became the myth of Hamlet's Mill (no relation to Shakespeare), seen slowly turning in those long winter nights "grinding out" a different fate for humans every 2000 years. (likely governed by precession of equinoxes). These guys were pretty big on salvation-by-fate-alone. (see, opening lines of Beowulf).
23 posted on 02/16/2004 4:30:23 AM PST by edwin hubble
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