U.S. troops, parents confirm Humvee risks: Tales of fear, tragedy in unarmored vehicles

msnbc.msn.com ^ | 12:47 p.m. ET April 16, 2004 | Michael Moran

[Destro]

U.S. troops, parents confirm Humvee risks Tales of fear, tragedy in unarmored vehicles

Updated: 12:47 p.m. ET April 16, 2004

Michael Moran received numerous responses to his Brave New World column about the lack of armor protection on U.S. military Humvees in Iraq.Among those responding were soldiers, veterans and parents of troops deployed in Iraq who have seen or heard these complaints firsthand. Here are some examples; e-mail addresses have been removed.

[Destro]

I don't understand why we can't gear up factories to produce APCs? Or buy the APCs of our allies like those the Poles make or Bulgaria, etc. if we don't want to send money towards those allies we don't like these days like the Germans.

Hell, half a dozen small American factories can produce low tech APCs - just convert truck chassises with an armor box ontop for Christ's sake.

[Unknowing]

Steps are being taken. I saw a whole trainload of APC's last week, on flatcars and heading west.

[jaykay]

Apparently the lives of American soldiers have been judged cheaper than the cost of the Armor.

[jaykay]

Really? Do they realize that the war has been going on for a year? Better late than never, I guess.

[Destro]

I would have purchased every servicable APC in Eastern Europe and shipped it out pronto within a month of the occupation. I hope the decision not to supply APCs was not linked to any politics - "it would look wrong to patrol in APCs when we had no danger in post Saddam Iraq" type of thinking.

[Destro]

The BTR-60 armored personnel carrier was developed in the late 1950s. It was issued in quantity to the East German, Bulgarian and Romanian Armies. It has also been exported to Yugoslavia. You can buy them cheaply for the value of scrap metal.

[Flyer]

[Destro]

The Jeep and the Humvee were designed to be transporters only. In direct combat they are death traps. The jeep was never a front line vehicle.

[Unknowing]

Yes, they were painted and looked about fully rigged with clean, new tires. Long train of flatcars, I guess two or three vehicles to a car. All APC's, no tracked vehicles or Bradleys.

They're probably already on board ships in West coast ports, effectively in transit to the area of operations. And if I saw one trainload, there must be other trainloads.

[donozark]

APC? Do you mean the M113A1? It is tracked. Not as impervious to RPG/IEDs as many think...ask those who served in armor units in VN. 27% of all armor crewmen that served in VN were KIA.

[donozark]

Never saw a Jeep that survived an encounter with an RPG/booby trap. The increased weight of armor on Humvees is wearing out suspensions,etc. Tracked vehicles were tearing up the highways.

Perhaps it is time to revert to the proposed (in VN) "fortified/coastal enclave" theory, as promulgated by Generals Ridgeway/Gavin. They determined best way to "hold" in VN was to avoid chasing enemy all over the countryside and to the safe-areas of Laos/Cambodia and hold Cam Ranh Bay, Hue', Da Nang, etc.

We have stripped the Iraqis of their Navy, Air Force, armor,arty (except mortars). Perhaps we could withdraw to a few key areas, hold them and let the various factions fight it out?

[cynicom]

The United States is always prepared for the last war.

[11Bush]

I would suggest that you keep your comments to subjects that you can show at least a small amount of personal experience or knowledge.

To suggest that the BTR-60 is a viable alternative, and that the venerable Jeep was not a front-line vehicle is at best laughable.

I will ask the same question that I pose to all arm-chair generals, 'what branch, what MOS, and when?'.

Perhaps you should stick to video games where you are most comfortable.

[Unknowing]

These had tires, not tracks, as I recall. They were not M113's, Strykers, or Bradleys.

[Destro]

The Humvee is a death trap - useless in engagements.

[Unknowing]

After doing a little research, I believe that I can identify the vehicles which I saw as being what are called LAV's: Light Armored Vehicles.

Here's some additional information: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/mav

[jaykay]

I hope the decision not to supply APCs was not linked to any politics - "it would look wrong to patrol in APCs when we had no danger in post Saddam Iraq" type of thinking.

I have a feeling that they really thought that there was no danger in post Saddam Iraq. They seem to be taken by surprise by the violence of the past year and overwhelmed by the implosion this month.

[milemark]

taken by surprise by the violence of the past year and overwhelmed by the implosion this month.

It's the language barrier. We're getting those flowers and candy we were promised, it's just that in arabic they translate as ambushes and roadside bombs.

[11Bush]

I will ask this; how many hours do you have in a hummv, cutv, M2, M1, or any other military vehicle?

I know why don't we equip each boot on the ground with their own personal Bradley? They would be safe then, right?

Safety is not the mission. It is something that is of concern to the military leadership, but it is NOT a mission objective.

[Destro]

You don't f*cking patrol urban war zones in light infantry vehicles that have no armor. The reasons are obvious.

The APC with a high wheel base can protect from mines and the armor while not able to keep out big rounds and RPGS can protect against small arms fire.

Humvees are death traps in urban zones.