Hemoglobin Ancestors Offer Clues to Earliest Oxygen-Based Life [blow to Intelligent Design]

NewsWise ^ | 20 April 2004 | Staff

[PatrickHenry]

A link without which I would have been happier.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Call Creationist Central. Time to raise the bar again.

[VadeRetro]

But what's the proof of that? Yada yada. This just SHOWS Intelligent Design because it was an experiment and people did it yada yada.

[PatrickHenry]

Observe how few of the creationist regulars have posted here up to now. So far, it's definitely the third stringers who have offered comments. I've observed this pattern before. It's known as "hiding under the bed and hoping the problem goes away." Eventually, some of them will drop in. Their comments will avoid the subject matter of the lead article, and instead will follow the usual diversionary paths: (1) lies, all lies; (2) Darwin was a communist-racist-queer-atheist-whatever; (3) Piltdown Man; (4) it takes more "faith" to believe in evolution ...; (5) yeah, but get your own dirt; (6) you're a horrible man, PatrickHenry!

[Modernman]

(1) lies, all lies; (2) Darwin was a communist-racist-queer-atheist-whatever; (3) Piltdown Man; (4) it takes more "faith" to believe in evolution ...; (5) yeah, but get your own dirt; (6) you're a horrible man, PatrickHenry!

(6) is generally their default setting.

[LiteKeeper]

YEC INTREP - where does it say that these microbes themselves were not designed by the Designer?

[Junior]

They very well might have been. However, after that evolution took over.

[LiteKeeper]

Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created {them} [Adam and Eve] from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

[WhatsItAllAbout]

So you believe in evolution as a process where life evolved from inanimate matter into increasingly complex forms. Well, my question is what is the logical conclusion of this evolution? From our rung on the evolutionary ladder we can see the simpler life forms that have come before us, but what about higher forms of life? One who is a firm believer in evolution should only require a small leap of faith to believe that life could ultimately(if not already) evolve into a GOD like creature with supreme intelligence and power over the physical environment. If as a believer in evolution you disagree with this conclusion what would prevent this seemingly logical evolutionary conclusion? Is my logic flawed, if so please enlighten me? Thanks for your attention and I look forward to your responses.

[WhatsItAllAbout]

Bump

[balrog666]

Well, my question is what is the logical conclusion of this evolution?

Read a biology book - there is none.

From our rung on the evolutionary ladder we can see the simpler life forms that have come before us, but what about higher forms of life?

Higher? Lower? What does that mean?

The most successful form of life is still bacteria.

[Dimensio]

. If as a believer in evolution you disagree with this conclusion what would prevent this seemingly logical evolutionary conclusion?

My question is why a "GOD" like entity with "supreme intelligence" (you didn't define that term very well) and "power over the physical environment" (humans already have power over their physical environment, to some degree) would necessarily come about through changes in alelle frequency over time.

Evolution predicts only that creatures adapted to a given environment will survive and reproduce over successive generations. It makes no "conclusions" as to the changes that will occur to a species over time.

[Dimensio]

You forgot the comparison to Hitler. Hitler is the fun universal equivocation. When all of the facts are against you (or you just can't think of a proper rebuttal), claim that Hitler would have supported/did support the opponent's view and you "win".

[ScuzzyTerminator]

Is this what you're referring to?

... The only feature that is absolutely conserved in this subfamily of proteins is the histidine amino acid that binds to the heme iron.

Not specifically, just my memory from my old molbio textbooks. Anyway, ID does not expect that an irreducibly complex element be conserved absolutely, amino acid by amino acid, atom by atom, but that functional forms have a minimal complexity.


It is not unusual in proteins that an amino acid in a functional structure can be replaced by another amino acid. This does not make it a less complex structure. There may be many ways to make a heme group. The question ID asks is, "how simple can you make it?"

Nor is it expected that every functional structure be irreducibly complex but that there be found as many irreducibly complex structures as to make evolution improbable. I do not have an opinion as to whether the heme group is an especially complex structure, but the following, snipped from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln website:, makes it appear that even this small structure of a few amino acids, is remarkably fine tuned.

A frontal view of one heme group shows how the heme group binds the iron atom. The heme groups consists of carbon atoms (grey), nitrogen atoms (blue), oxygen atoms (red stick ends), the iron atom (red ball in the center), and hydrogen atoms (not shown).  Notice the blue nitrogen atoms (shown as sticks) directly contact the iron atom.  This is an illustration of the coordination mentioned above.
 
 
 
 
 

 

From this side view, it is evident (if you look closely) that the iron atom is slightly out of the plane formed by the heme group. This occurs in the absence of the sixth legand (for example O₂ or CO). The next image illustrates how the heme is attached to the peptide chain.
 
 
 

 

 
 
 

The amino acid histidine that coordinates to the iron atom is now rendered as a "sticks" model. The arrangement of 5 nitrogen atoms around the central iron atom in the coordination complex is called a tetragonal pyramid.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
  When heme in hemoglobin binds another ligand (for example O₂) a new geometry results.  In this example, the oxygen molecule is bound directly opposite the nitrogen atom of the histidine group. In the oxy form of hemoglobin, there are 6 ligands to the iron atom. The result is an octahedral complex, that is the atoms around the central iron atom are arranged to form an octahedron.  Notice that the iron is now pulled into the plane of the heme group.

[WhatsItAllAbout]

balrog666 you make a good point about the limitations of natural selection, but evolution in theory is much more than natural selection. Form our stand point in evolutionary history (with the human geonome studies and the like) we are on the verge of taking control of our evolutionary(genetic) future. And with the advances in computer and other technologies the blending of man and machine will come about quickly. This combined/controlled evolution of man and machine in my mind is limitless.

[WhatsItAllAbout]

"... why a "GOD" like entity with "supreme intelligence" (you didn't define that term very well) and "power over the physical environment..."

Maybe I should restate the question why not "a "GOD" like entity with "supreme intelligence" ...and "power over the physical environment"

Is there any reason the evolutionary process could/would not eventually produce a "Supreme Being" which could possess the attributes of "GOD"? Especially in light of the possibility that man/machine may be able to direct thier future evolution? Thanks for all the responses.

[P-Marlowe]

[blow to Intelligent Design]

Non Sequitur

[Dimensio]

Is there any reason the evolutionary process could/would not eventually produce a "Supreme Being" which could possess the attributes of "GOD"?

I don't know. What are the attributes of "GOD"? You don't necessarily need to be exhaustive, but provide a good-sized list, and be specific with each entry on the list.

[WhatsItAllAbout]

For the details, see the "BIBLE". But for the sake of the discussion how about a being who can operate outside of our space time and has the ability to alter/suspend/negate the physics of our space time. The great "I AM" kind of sums up the idea of this hypothetical being.

[Dimensio]

But for the sake of the discussion how about a being who can operate outside of our space time and has the ability to alter/suspend/negate the physics of our space time.

That helps.

You could not even begin to predict the existence of a being coming about via evolution until you could demonstrate that such a being could exist in the first place. Even if you could demonstrate that such an entity could exist, you'd have to come up with a mechanism for a biological organism to posess those traits through inheretable mutation before you could claim that evolution could bring it about. Once there, you'd need to explain what selective pressures would be needed to create the potential for such a creature to evolve (though even that would not guarantee that such a creature would come about, as it's possible that none of the life forms in a given environment will go through the correct mutations)

Given what is currently known about biology, physics and chemistry, I'd say that it's not possible for such an entity to come about via evolution, or any other natural process.