Secular Islam

MERRY CHRISTMAS...IF THAT'S HALAL I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone Merry Christmas, or Happy Hanukkah, or just Happy Holidays. I am spending the holidays with my family, so I do not know how much blogging I will be able to do. I have to admit that I have never told them about me converting to Islam, or even that I have any particular interest in it. I'm too ashamed--well, maybe not ashamed, but I have no real desire to know their reactions to it, when I know how little they think of Islam. Much of it justified, I must admit, but still...it's not all bad, especially if you look at the more friendly parts as opposed to the jihad stuff. I've read the Qur'an again and am rereading the Bible, so perhaps I will do a comparison of the two. I am always surprised by just how short the Qur'an is as opposed to the Bible, perhaps only 1/5 the length of the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures, and somewhat shorter than the New Testament. It's not quite as long as the Torah (first five books of the Bible). Also, since the Qur'an is so repetitive, the actual contents of the Qur'an, without repetition, could probably fit in the space of the Book of Psalms. Anyway, I hope to answer more email soon, and to blog again soon! Posted by Fatimah at December 24, 2003 04:59 PM Comments what diffrence dose it make or you if greeting christians of the xmas is halal or not!? you can fool non muslims and they may be fooled to believe you are a muslim but a real muslims will easily notice that you are not a muslim....maybe you are one of those Irani renegades....but 100% not a muslim. anyway....greeting christians for xmas is 100% halal http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapp...?hFatwaID=94540 and merry xmas christians. Posted by: saladin at December 25, 2003 09:46 AM A joyous, safe and peaceful holiday to you and yours Posted by: e at December 25, 2003 11:56 AM You know what I like about are Muslim friend here......she is honest about the deep flaws about Islam........and yet she has a seeking heart......and she's even reading the Bible and the Quran together.........wonderful....... Merry Christmas Posted by: AlbertaCowboy at December 26, 2003 12:04 AM yeah...assuming there is a single flaw about islam she is honest about it..aren't all islam enemies!? Posted by: saladin at December 26, 2003 03:14 AM You tell us, saladin. Is all Islam our enemy? Posted by: Rob at December 26, 2003 07:09 AM -rob well....if i understood your question then the answer is..surly No...but the hypocrite who is running this site is SURLY an enemy of islam Posted by: saladin at December 26, 2003 09:27 AM Saladin, Oh, I misunderstood your earlier post. Can you explain why you feel the person who runs this site is a hypocrite and an enemy of Islam? Posted by: Rob at December 26, 2003 06:35 PM ". . . If that's halal"??? Amazing comments on this site! If I were to see as many faults as you seen in Islam (entirely true, I might add) I could never be a member of such a "religion." Certainly the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, has its share of violence. But, compared to the Qu'ran and the hadith, where violence and oppression of the "unbeliever" are mandated and codified via sharia—there is little. The Qu'ran is filled with hatred against anyone who is not a Muslim and incites violence against the "other." WHY would you want to believe in such a monstrous idea? Wessie Posted by: Wessie at December 26, 2003 08:44 PM If you have such huge problems with Islam, then why did you convert in the first place? Posted by: a muslimah at December 26, 2003 10:36 PM Maybe she didn't "understand" what she was getting into? Islam does appear to hide its true, intolerant face behind a veil of lies such as, "Islam is Peace." It isn't! Islam is submission to a misanthropic, misogynistic system of mind control, rather like a cult. It appears that Fatimah is not subject to mind control. She can still think—and thinking people question instead of blindly submitting to a 7th century fairy tale that Mohammed used to build his Islamic empire. Clever guy, that Mohammed, "All for one and one for all," in the Ummah. Revenge killings in the name of Islam. Compulsory jihad for every Muslim. Would you call that Islamic imperialism? I would! Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 26, 2003 11:20 PM They hate us & revile us They hate and revile the religion They hate and revile the Prophet (Peace & Blessings Be upon him) They hate and revile even The Name. But I could never thank Allah enough for making me a Muslim. This is the true religion - the old-time religion. You know that, Fatima. This the only religion that ever existed: Salih, Nuh, Musa, Isa - all were Muslims. The Qur'an zaps you into that world, that planet if you like: Planet Islam. So what if a few so-called Muslims are stupid? They're losers - just like the kafirs who despise them. Narrow is the road that leads to life said the Messiah. That road is the straight path. The majority are on the wrong way. Let every wo/man find a way to his/her Lord. Peace, Posted by: DaHutt at December 27, 2003 07:00 AM How absolutely ludicrous, DaHutt! No one "hates" Muslims. But, Muslims and Islam HATE everyone who is not Muslim. It says so right in the Qu'ran. Given what the Qu'ran says about killing infidels, the civilized world certainly won't trust Muslims until they refute those passages and have a Reformation. EVERY major religion is "old time." They all have their value. But, unfortunately, Islam is not tolerant enough to recognize that and leave other religions in peace. • "Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29) "So what if a few so-called Muslims are stupid? They're losers - just like the kafirs who despise them." IF Islam EVER has a bona-fide Reformation and thereafter a renaissance, and and finally, an age of enlightenment, it is these questioning Muslims who will lead the way. The ignorant losers are those who insist on living in the 7th century with the violent, intolerant, misanthropic, misogynistic messages of the Qu'ran that were "revealed" in Medina to waring Mohammed. Interesting how the backward Muslims societies that hate the "Great Satan" and every other "infidel" nation are not above asking for assistance from them. Note the case of Iran's recent earthquake tragedy. Already the "true believers" have asked the infidel nations of all the world to help them. They will even "suspend the usual visa requirements." And of course, the infidels will bring the skilled "sniffer dogs"—dogs, the creatures that Islam considers unclean; dogs, the creatures that Iranian mullahs have had "arrested." http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0210/articles/021018a.htm Yet, the Lord God made them all! Dogs, in whose eyes one can see God. The "infidel" is always good to be used by Islam, good to pay jizyah, good to do the heavy as well as the creative work for Muslims who are too backward and lazy to do it themselves. Certainly they will also accept all the technology and medical assistance that the modern "infidel" world can provide. Islam is always asking their Allah to "destroy the unbelievers." God works in mysterious ways. He destroyed virtually a whole 2,000 year old city. One wonders whether Iran will be grateful enough for the help during their time of need to suspend development of their atomic bomb that they want to use to destroy the Jews and other "infidel" nations. • "We carry our beliefs on the tip of our swords." (Imam Ali's Nahaj ol-balaghah) "Militant Islam" is an oxymoron. Islam IS militant. "Al-Qaeda vows 'back-breaking' strike, magazine says http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/FlashNewsStory.aspx?FlashOID=13947 Twenty Thousand of the "faithful" killed in an Islamic land. One wonders whether the Muslims will get God's message? Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 27, 2003 08:16 AM First off, I want to express my sorrow at the horrible loss of life in Iran. This is truly a tragedy of huge proportions, the magnitude of which far outweighs any political or religious differences that exist between nations and individuals. It will be interesting, though, to see how various people in the world react to this event. In the United States, we will temporarily put aside our differences with the government of Iran in order to offer aid and assistance in the recovery and reconstruction. That is because the people of this nation care about people elsewhere, even when they live in a country that has goals diametrically opposed to our own. Fundamentalists of all stripes (Christian and Muslim) will, of course, assume that this earthquake was God’s will, and will act accordingly. Sunni’s will point to the death of their Shiites neighbors as proof that Allah hates them; Christian Fundamentalists of a certain type will put this forward as evidence that God hates Muslims. That’s what’s so infuriating about fundamentalist, in my view: they always seem to know what God’s thinking. Even non-fundamentalist people of faith will vaguely speak of the earthquake as “God’s Will” but not jump to the conclusion that God wanted the people of Iran to die. The question “Why does God let people die in earthquakes?” has been asked and answered many times over the years, to no satisfying result. Complete secularists will point to the earthquake as being an event totally unrelated to any spiritual realm, the result of tectonic shifts outside the control of god or man. Fringe elements on the web have speculated that the earthquake was caused by the United States in sort of super-weapon test. Expect to hear this repeated again and again for many years to come. I think it’s interesting that just last week, an earthquake on California’s coast killed only two people. If I were of a fundamentalist mind, I would think long and hard about what it means that God only kills two Americans one day, and 20,000 times that number of Muslims another day. Posted by: Rob at December 27, 2003 12:30 PM -rob hmmm...the list is pretty long but let me start with 3 reasons. 1-i took a look around trying to find one article where she give a positive view on islam...but sadly not..this site is not made by a muslim!! 2-deny Quran divinity?? so you are not a muslim....why?? cos you believe then that prophet muhammed lied when he said its from god and a lier cann't be a prophet and no prophet then no religion. 3-she won't miss a chance to bash islam...and what the hell dose Xmas greeting has to do with the size of quran!?...and btw her comment abt quran size prove how much shallow and naive she is cos the bible revelation time span is very long in comparison with quran......and her crap about quran being repetitive make me doubt if she read or hear about quran. Posted by: saladin at December 27, 2003 12:46 PM Iran wants no help from Jews! "Iran's arch-foe Israel offers condolences on quake"

"JERUSALEM (AFP) - The Israeli government offered condolences following the devastating earthquake in Iran, saying it had "no conflict" with the Iranian people, despite its enmity with the Islamic regime. ". . .The regime in Tehran has said it would not accept any help from the "Zionist regime". "The Islamic Republic of Iran accepts all kinds of humanitarian aid from all countries and international organizations with the exception of the Zionist regime (Israel)," Jahanbakhsh Khanjani said Saturday, quoted by the official news agency IRNA. . . " ". . .Israeli teams have solid experience in earthquake rescue operations, with workers having been despatched to help out in operations in countries including Nicaragua and Turkey. . . " http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031227/wl_mideast_afp/iran_quake_israel_031227122823 ". . . If I were of a fundamentalist mind, I would think long and hard about what it means that God only kills two Americans one day, and 20,000 times that number of Muslims another day." Now, I am not a fundamentalist, nor am I an adherent of any sort of organized religion, Rob, given that these cause so much suffering in the world. However, these things do make one wonder WHY it is that Muslims always get the short end of the stick? Just WHY are they still living in the dark ages? You don't suppose "free will" has anything to do with it? After all, people living in a mud-hut, 2000 year old city can't have had too many modern, earthquake resistant buildings. Free will to "submit" to Islam, to be ignorant, to be backward and spear themselves in the foot— for millennia. The mulling mullahs of Iran would rather see their people suffer and die than accept aid from the hated "Zionist entity." They will even accept aid from the "Great Satan," but not the Jews. Ah, tolerant, petulant Islam, cutting off its nose to spite its face. The 20,000 plus who died tragically in this disaster and the thousands more who will probably die due to a lack of aid, will surely get their reward—72 white raisins in paradise. You can lead a horse (or camel or donkey) to water—but you cannot make him drink! Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 27, 2003 12:51 PM "1-i took a look around trying to find one article where she give a positive view on islam...but sadly not..this site is not made by a muslim!!" Well, Salad, why not give us some positives about Islam? I can't seem to find ANYTHING positive about this so-called "religion" that seeks to control the whole world with misanthropy. Perhaps you can enlighten us? "2-deny Quran divinity?? so you are not a muslim....why?? cos you believe then that prophet muhammed lied when he said its from god and a lier cann't be a prophet and no prophet then no religion." That's about right. In my opinion, Mohammed invented Islam in order to solidify his Islamic empire. Very clever guy that Mohammed. The Ummah thing, "one for all and all for one," is excellent! Except of course, that Muslims all over the world hate each others guts and murder one another every day of the week. "3-she won't miss a chance to bash islam...and what the hell dose Xmas greeting has to do with the size of quran!?...and btw her comment abt quran size prove how much shallow and naive she is cos the bible revelation time span is very long in comparison with quran......and her crap about quran being repetitive make me doubt if she read or hear about quran." It appears to me that "bashing Islam" is the term you use when someone points out truths about Islam that Muslims find unpleasant. Islam does have hateful, violent surahs—LOTS of them! Islam does rail against the Jews. Islam does oppress women. Mohammed says they are worth less than men. Islam does want to conquer the world and kill all the idolaters and make the rest of us dhimmis unless we submit to Islamic Imperialism. It says so right in the Qu'ran. Now, there are plenty of Christians these days who criticize the doctrines of Christianity. Yet, no one puts a fatwa on their heads for doing so. They are not called apostates or heretics. They are called THINKERS in the modern world! So, Saladin, Tell us something positive about Islam—please! Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 27, 2003 01:03 PM is it another childish challenge!?..should i respond to it or should i ignore it? Posted by: saladin at December 27, 2003 01:44 PM "is it another childish challenge!?..should i respond to it or should i ignore it?" It is not a "challenge," Salad, it is a question. I really want to know. Speaking of childish, Saladin, . . .why do you insist on typing like a teenager, without proper capitalization and shortening your words, i.e. "ur" for "your", "i" for "I" etc.? Are you an adolescent? So, how about it? Tell us something— actually a few things would even be better— that are positive about Islam. Tell us what Muslims have acomplished to move humanity forward in the last 1,000—no, make that 500, years. Like I said, so far, I don't see a single thing that would make me a fan of Islam. With the possible exception of the architecture, which I, as an "unbeliever" will only be permitted to appreciate from afar. Here is yet another un-positive thing. Jihad against Muslims and "infidels" alike. Murder by the book—the Qu'ran: "Coordinated rebel attacks in Iraq kill 13, injure at least 172" http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/27/international1539EST0545.DTL Now don't tell us about the "occupation." After all, what do you think would happen in Iraq if the US left tomorrow? Civil war between rival Muslim factions perhaps? The return of the Baa'th regime? Another Afhanistan? I'll bet all of the above. Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 27, 2003 02:02 PM u r p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c...but i'll answer your questions just after i finish a chess game i'm playing (honestly its more important than you and your 4th grade questions) Posted by: saladin at December 27, 2003 02:29 PM "u r p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c..." Ah, right! Com'on old boy, inquiring minds want to know. Tell us what good things Islam has accomplished recently. BTW— Saladin, i hope u r better @ chess than u r @ writing. ;-) "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg (1933 - ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999 Posted by: Lilith at December 27, 2003 03:21 PM My $.02 about why Saladin & his Excellent Fundamentalist Corps despise Fatimah. She doesn't offer up all hosannahs all the time to the religion & the good Book. Besides she's a ... woman That's blasphemy to the on-off Saladin robots. Also - you gotta wonder about people who give themselves internet nom-de-plumes like saladin & Kang the Conqueror. What are you compensating for, Saladin old chum ? Posted by: Hoo-Hah at December 27, 2003 09:16 PM This might explain the problem: "Muslim paranoia: 'Enemies made us impotent!' " http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn26.html ". . . Last month mass hysteria apparently swept the capital city, Khartoum, after reports that foreigners were shaking hands with Sudanese men and causing their penises to disappear. One victim, a fabric merchant, told his story to the London Arabic newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi. A man from West Africa came into the shop and "shook the store owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into his body. . . . . .Tales of the vanishing penises ran rampant round the city, spread by cell phones and text messages. . . . . ..One of the things I'd feel humiliated about if I lived in the Arab world is that almost all the forms of expression of my anti-Westernism are themselves Western in origin. Pan-Arabism was old-school 19th century nationalism of the type that eventually unified the various German and Italian statelets. Nasserism was transplanted European socialism, Baathism a local anachronistic variant on 'tween-wars Fascist movements. The Arabs even swiped Jew hatred from the Europeans. Though there was certainly friction between Jews and Muslims before the 20th century, it took the Europeans to package a disorganized, free-lance dislike of Jews into a big-time ideology with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf and all the rest. . . . . . .There's something pathetic about a culture so ignorant even its pathologies have to be imported. But what do you expect? The telling detail of the vanishing penis hysteria is that it was spread by text messaging. You can own a cell phone, yet still believe that foreigners are able with a mere handshake to cause your penis to melt away. . . . . . . A handshake-fearing guy with a cell phone is one thing; what happens when the handshake-fearers have cell phones and a suitcase nuke? It's at the intersection of apparently indestructible ancient ignorance and cheap, widely available western technology that the dark imponderables of the future lie. . . . . . the dervishes have cell phones now. Those and some dimestore boxcutters and a couple of ATM cards were all they needed to pull off 9/11. And there are plenty of people out there willing to help them get the cheap knock-offs of the 21st century's Maxim gun. . ." ----- But, "Islam is Peace" and Muslims the "best of peoples" http://www.islamic-state.org/leaflets/june0503.htm Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 27, 2003 11:09 PM I believe that Saladin does not speak/write English as his first language. Considering this, I believe his facility with the language should be off-limits for criticism. Not to say he shouldn't be quizzed about his beliefs, though.... Posted by: Rob at December 28, 2003 11:25 AM Rob, sorry, no cigar. There are lots of people whose first language is not English—yours truly included. Incorrect spelling is different than the typical adolescent Muslim shortening of words to mere letters. In my experience this is the typical jargon used by immature Muslims on line. I am still waiting for Saladbin to tell us some positive things about Islam as he promised. Do you suppose he is still playing that chess game? I am not an adherent of any organized religion, as previously mentioned. But, I can see many positive things in many religions. For example: Buddhism's idea that we are all connected and that there is no "god" hierarchy; Judaism's lack of dogma, that freedom to believe what you deem believable and leave the rest; Christianity's tenets of "love thy neighbor;" Shintoism's Nature reverence—and so on. However, the more I learn about Islam the more difficulty I have to see anything at all that is positive about it. It appears to be a complete, cult like system of body and mind control of the "believer." A misanthropic and misogynistic way of life that sets itself over and above all other peoples. And if you want to no longer "believe" you are an apostate and must be killed, according to the Qu'ran. So, I would like the "true believers" here to tell me what is so appealing about a religion that does not leave one a free moment to think for yourself and horrifically, a religion that commands to kill a member if one wants to leave? Lili Posted by: LP at December 28, 2003 12:35 PM well...first of all thanks Rob but i believe Lili was refering to my usage of a teenager style in writing but it means nothing for me as long as english is not my first language. and Lili..maybe you will understand in a few minutes why i paid the least and respect and attention to your SiL-L-y question :D but before i answer it i want to make a few points clear 1-Saladin was a hero by all the meanings of the word and he was a Noble muslim knight unlike your peacful christian friends who massacred arabs in the name of christ (the master of peace) but don't take my word for it..take saladin enemy words..andhow did they described Saladin.. (or you can pay humanity a service and go and ask Richrad Lion heart yourself ..just kidding :P) 2-you asked me to tell you what muslim have accomplished in the last 1,000 years or 500 years...well i got to admit i can't remember any major achievments in the last 500 years cos 612 years ago a great civilliaziton (Al Andalus) was demolished by christian barberians....sure you don't know what Al Andalus is and what dose it mean to Humanity but i don't blame you. 3-apostacy itself is not a crime which deserve death in islam....ONLY when apostacy is accompnied with betaryel or alliance with islam enemy Death is the punishment. now to the main question "what is good about islam"...hmmm..everything!? islam come in one package and till now i couldn't find a single flaw about it...can you find some for me??..but let me try to mention a few good things..random order. 1- "Ibn `Umar passed by some youths of Quraysh who had set up a bird and were shooting at it, giving any arrows which missed to the owner of the bird. Thereupon, Ibn `Umar said, "Allah curses the one who does this. Verily, the Messenger of Allah cursed the one who takes something with a soul as a target." 2-Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is." 3-the strict order to respect and serve and obey the parents EVEN if they are non believers. 4-a sense of freedom for females ""When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud). " 5-a little bit early version of geneva convention? The words of anyone after the Prophet do not carry independent religious authority, but the above teachings of the Prophet are clearly reflected in the practice of his immediate successor, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr gave 10 directions to Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan, one of his commanders, when dispatching him at the head of an army to the Levant: "Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor a decrepit aged person, Do not cut down a fruit-bearing tree, Do not destroy a dwelling, Do not kill a sheep or camel, unless [you need to kill it] for food, Do not set bees on fire, nor drown them, Do not misappropriate war-booty, and Do not be cowardly." ---------------------- the list is huge so why don't you have mercy on me and name a subject like "war,women,economy..etc"? Posted by: saladin at December 28, 2003 02:23 PM An excerpt from "The Real History of the Crusades" By Thomas F. Madden "With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East. That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense." http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm Posted by: Rob at December 28, 2003 03:15 PM so rob why don't we look at crusaders reasons as THEY SAID IT rather than hearing how apologists try to find excuses for it centuries after it was crushed on the hands of Saladin and his army? Pope Urban speech (which triggered crusades) "But if you are hindered by love of children, parents, or of wife, remember what the Lord says in the Gospel, `He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me', 'Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.' Let none of your possessions retain you, nor solicitude for you, family affairs. For this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder and devour one another, that you wage war, and that very many among you perish in intestine strife.' " "Let hatred therefore depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulcher-, wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves. That land which, as the Scripture says, `floweth with milk and honey' was given by God into the power of the children of Israel. Jerusalem is the center of the earth ; the land is fruitful above all others, like another paradise of delights. This spot the Redeemer of mankind has made illustrious by his advent, has beautified by his sojourn, has consecrated by his passion, has redeemed by his death, has glorified by his burial. " -------------- as you see...all about Greed. Posted by: saladin at December 28, 2003 03:52 PM ". . . my usage of a teenager style in writing but it means nothing for me as long as english is not my first language." English is not my first language either, Saladbin, but I know how to use it properly and make an effort at doing so. "and Lili..maybe you will understand in a few minutes why i paid the least and respect and attention to your SiL-L-y question :D but before i answer it i want to make a few points clear" It appears to me that Muslims have a habit of paying little respect to others who are not Muslims, particularly if these are women. When you show some respect, I shall do the same, Saladbin! :-b "1-Saladin was a hero by all the meanings of the word and he was a Noble muslim knight unlike your peacful christian friends who massacred arabs in the name of christ (the master of peace) but don't take my word for it..take saladin enemy words..andhow did they described Saladin.. (or you can pay humanity a service and go and ask Richrad Lion heart yourself ..just kidding :P)" Like I said, Saladbin, when you show respect, so shall I. I KNOW who Saladin was. We study history in our schools in the West, not just religious studies. That is one of the reasons why we have moved forward while Islam has stayed backward. As to his heroism as a "Noble" Muslim "knight." I don't think so, Saladbin. Muslims don't have knights, they have warriors. Mohammed was a warrior as was Saladin. And don't forget, Islam was BORN of the sword. Mohammed could not get those Arabs in Mecca to "submit" to Islam—so—he made war on them after having fled to Medina. The First Crusade was called because Muslims, via the sword, took the Holy Land away from Jews and Christians— who, BTW, were there FIRST!!! Muslims do not have a right to the Holy Land because they robbed Jews and Christians of it. Other ME areas were also Christian before Islam came in BLOODY conquest. "2-you asked me to tell you what muslim have accomplished in the last 1,000 years or 500 years...well i got to admit i can't remember any major achievments in the last 500 years cos 612 years ago a great civilliaziton (Al Andalus) was demolished by christian barberians....sure you don't know what Al Andalus is and what dose it mean to Humanity but i don't blame you." Oh, right. That great "civilization" was in Spain. Spain was a Western, Christian country until the Muslims conquered it via the sword—again. So, that is the excuse, for Muslims not having accomplished ANYTHING in the last 500 years—because they were driven out of Spain, a land that did not belong to them in the first place? That's just like a Muslim, particularly an Arab, always blame their failures on others. Interesting though, that Europe forged WAY ahead after the Muslim oppressors left. Then came the Renaissance and the Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment. When will Muslims have some of those? I suggest having a real Reformation first! "3-apostacy itself is not a crime which deserve death in islam....ONLY when apostacy is accompnied with betaryel or alliance with islam enemy Death is the punishment." Um, that is not what it says in the Qu'ran. Leaving Islam is considered betrayal, thus—DEATH! "now to the main question "what is good about islam"...hmmm..everything!? islam come in one package and till now i couldn't find a single flaw about it...can you find some for me??..but let me try to mention a few good things..random order." Sure I shall find many for you: • Islam is violent and militant. • Islam is misanthropic • Islam is misogynistic • Islam treats women, HALF of the human race, with great disrespect by claiming they are less than men, using them as property. • Islam is a mind controlling cult that will ALWAYS keep the "believers" down unless they have a Reformation to refute the violent, misanthropic, misogynistic passages of the Qu'ran. "1- "Ibn `Umar. . . "Allah curses the one who does this. Verily, the Messenger of Allah cursed the one who takes something with a soul as a target." Right, any child KNOWS that it is wrong to kill. The 10 Commandments tell us that as well. ALL religions have this tenet. "Thou shalt not kill," straight from the Old Testament of the Jews. Speaking of souls. Why do Muslims hate dogs? "2-Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is." Right! That must be why Muslims today, the world over, treat their women as brood mares, why there are "honor" killings and rapes, why men can whore around and have 4 wives and "temporary" marriages. It says right in the Qu'ran that women are of lesser status than men. I can produce the surah for you. Mohammed also said that Hell was full of mostly women and that they are stupid. "3-the strict order to respect and serve and obey the parents EVEN if they are non believers." "Honor thy father and thy mother" Mohammed got that right from the Jews and the 10 Commandments. "4-a sense of freedom for females ""When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud). " "A sense of freedom"? LOL The problem is that women cannot do this in the REAL Islamic world. Women in Islam are prisoners of men, they always have been prisoners of men—those incompetent men, who rule the Islamic world. "5-a little bit early version of geneva convention? Show us WHERE in the Islamic world people have human rights? Show us, Saladbin! Over 50% of all young people want to emigrate from the Arab world. Show us where human rights exist in Islam, Saladbin—Show us! "The words of anyone after the Prophet do not carry independent religious authority, but the above teachings of the Prophet are clearly reflected in the practice of his immediate successor, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr gave 10 directions to Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan, one of his commanders, when dispatching him at the head of an army to the Levant: "Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor a decrepit aged person, Do not cut down a fruit-bearing tree, Do not destroy a dwelling, Do not kill a sheep or camel, unless [you need to kill it] for food, Do not set bees on fire, nor drown them, Do not misappropriate war-booty, and Do not be cowardly." ---------------------- "the list is huge so why don't you have mercy on me and name a subject like "war,women,economy..etc"? How about economy? Let's talk about Islamic economy and women's rights— neither of which do well in the Islamic world. How nice. But, Muslims can kill everything and everybody and scorch the earth with "holy" jihad, and they have done it many places. Afghanistan is destroyed because Muslims have fought jihad for decades. Now they want aid from the West to rebuild. Lebanon is destroyed because of Muslim jihadis; the World Trade Center is destroyed because of Muslim suicide jihadis. The Iraqi infrastructure is being sabotaged EVERY SINGLE DAY by Muslims who KILL for Islam including other Muslims: men, women and children. Muslims kill innocents all over the world EVERY DAY—including other Muslims. Now they want aid from the West to rebuild. So, the above again is PROOF that Islam does not do what it says. No, Saladbin, you have to do better than that. Everything you mention Mohammed copied from the Christians and the Jews. The thing that is Mohammed's OWN is Islamic jihad—WAR, murder and subjugation of the infidel those are Mohammed, the warrior's claim to fame. You see we look at what Muslims DO and how they behave and how their societies function. And what we see is NOT good. To follow the tenets of Islam means to subjugate women, to subjugate or kill the "other" and to try to rule the world via violent Islam. The Islamofascist-terrorists did not "hijack" Islam. They are following it to the letter! Islam has hundreds of violent passages in the Qu'ran that supersede the more peaceful ones "dictated" earlier. But, Mohammed could get few Arabs to accept Islam with peace. So he turned to war and spread Islam via the sword. Today, Islam is trying to spread its cult via Islamic terror. It is clear that Muslims are still living in the 7th century or at best the middle ages. WHY have they not made progress in the last 500 years? We have all been living on the same planet! Arabs didn't have "colonial" masters until about 100 years ago. So, what was the problem? Why do the 22 Arab nations, with a population about the same as that of the US (280 million) have a GDP smaller than that of Spain? Why do Arabs only translate about 300 books per year into Arabic? Many individual people in the Western world purchase about that many books per year. No, Saladbin, you have to come up with some better reasons than the above to show us that Islam is "the best." I will say one thing. Islam certainly appears to be the "best" at mind control of any cult since the advent of same. Lili Posted by: LP at December 28, 2003 04:09 PM "as you see...all about Greed." Posted by saladin at December 28, 2003 03:52 PM Afraid not, "Saladbin. It's all about violent murderous Islam not staying where it's supposed to stay— in Arabia! Islam started to conquer the world by the sword. It is mandated to do that in the Qu'ran. There is a whole chapter in the Qu'ran on war booty and slaves. Note that these 75 whole verses were "revealed" at Medina. AFTER warrior Mohammed was DRIVEN from Mecca and thus had to make war to have Islam accepted by the Arabs. Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 8: AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY) http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.068 Total Verses: 75 Revealed At: MADINA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. 008.001 YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe." PICKTHAL: They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers. SHAKIR: They ask you about the windfalls. Say: The windfalls are for Allah and the Messenger. So be careful of (your duty to) Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers. 008.002 YUSUFALI: For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put (all) their trust in their Lord; PICKTHAL: They only are the (true) believers whose hearts feel fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited unto them they increase their faith, and who trust in their Lord; SHAKIR: Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust. 008.003 YUSUFALI: Who establish regular prayers and spend (freely) out of the gifts We have given them for sustenance: PICKTHAL: Who establish worship and spend of that We have bestowed on them. SHAKIR: Those who keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them. 008.004 YUSUFALI: Such in truth are the believers: they have grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness, and generous sustenance: PICKTHAL: Those are they who are in truth believers. For them are grades (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision. SHAKIR: These are the believers in truth; they shall have from their Lord exalted grades and forgiveness and an honorable sustenance. 008.005 YUSUFALI: Just as thy Lord ordered thee out of thy house in truth, even though a party among the Believers disliked it, PICKTHAL: Even as thy Lord caused thee (Muhammad) to go forth from thy home with the Truth, and lo! a party of the believers were averse (to it). SHAKIR: Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse; 008.006 YUSUFALI: Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they (actually) saw it. PICKTHAL: Disputing with thee of the Truth after it had been made manifest, as if they were being driven to death visible. SHAKIR: They disputed with you about the truth after it had become clear, (and they went forth) as if they were being driven to death while they saw (it). 008.007 YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;- PICKTHAL: And when Allah promised you one of the two bands (of the enemy) that it should be yours, and ye longed that other than the armed one might be yours. And Allah willed that He should cause the Truth to triumph by His words, and cut the root of the disbelievers; SHAKIR: And when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers. 008.008 YUSUFALI: That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt. PICKTHAL: That He might cause the Truth to triumph and bring vanity to naught, however much the guilty might oppose; SHAKIR: That He may manifest the truth of what was true and show the falsehood of what was false, though the guilty disliked. 008.009 YUSUFALI: Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks." PICKTHAL: When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank. SHAKIR: When you sought aid from your Lord, so He answered you: I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another. 008.010 YUSUFALI: Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. PICKTHAL: Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. SHAKIR: And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. 008.011 YUSUFALI: Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith. PICKTHAL: When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby. SHAKIR: When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby. 008.012 YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 008.013 YUSUFALI: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. PICKTHAL: That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment. SHAKIR: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil). 008.014 YUSUFALI: Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire." PICKTHAL: That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. SHAKIR: This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire. 008.015 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. SHAKIR: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. 008.016 YUSUFALI: If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! PICKTHAL: Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. SHAKIR: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. 008.017 YUSUFALI: It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things). PICKTHAL: Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower. SHAKIR: So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. 008.018 YUSUFALI: That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers. PICKTHAL: That (is the case); and (know) that Allah (it is) Who maketh weak the plan of disbelievers. SHAKIR: This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers. 008.019 YUSUFALI: (O Unbelievers!) if ye prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist (from wrong), it will be best for you: if ye return (to the attack), so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they were multiplied: for verily Allah is with those who believe! PICKTHAL: (O Qureysh!) If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance). SHAKIR: If you demanded a judgment, the judgment has then indeed come to you; and if you desist, it will be better for you; and if you turn back (to fight), We (too) shall turn back, and your forces shall avail you nothing, though they may be many, and (know) that Allah is with the believers. 008.020 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). SHAKIR: O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear. 008.021 YUSUFALI: Nor be like those who say, "We hear," but listen not: PICKTHAL: Be not as those who say, we hear, and they hear not. SHAKIR: And be not like those who said, We hear, and they did not obey. 008.022 YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not. PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense. SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand. 008.023 YUSUFALI: If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: (As it is), if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined (Faith). PICKTHAL: Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse. SHAKIR: And if Allah had known any good in them He would have made them hear, and if He makes them hear they would turn back while they withdraw. 008.024 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and the messenger when He calleth you to that which quickeneth you, and know that Allah cometh in between the man and his own heart, and that He it is unto Whom ye will be gathered. SHAKIR: O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered. 008.025 YUSUFALI: And fear tumult or oppression, which affecteth not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong: and know that Allah is strict in punishment. PICKTHAL: And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment. SHAKIR: And fear an affliction which may not smite those of you in particular who are unjust; and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). 008.026 YUSUFALI: Call to mind when ye were a small (band), despised through the land, and afraid that men might despoil and kidnap you; But He provided a safe asylum for you, strengthened you with His aid, and gave you Good things for sustenance: that ye might be grateful. PICKTHAL: And remember, when ye were few and reckoned feeble in the land, and were in fear lest men should extirpate you, how He gave you refuge, and strengthened you with His help, and made provision of good things for you, that haply ye might be thankful. SHAKIR: And remember when you were few, deemed weak in the land, fearing lest people might carry you off by force, but He sheltered you and strengthened you with His aid and gave you of the good things that you may give thanks. 008.027 YUSUFALI: O ye that believe! betray not the trust of Allah and the Messenger, nor misappropriate knowingly things entrusted to you. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Betray not Allah and His messenger, nor knowingly betray your trusts. SHAKIR: O you who believe! be not unfaithful to Allah and the Messenger, nor be unfaithful to your trusts while you know. 008.028 YUSUFALI: And know ye that your possessions and your progeny are but a trial; and that it is Allah with Whom lies your highest reward. PICKTHAL: And know that your possessions and your children are a test, and that with Allah is immense reward. SHAKIR: And know that your property and your children are a temptation, and that Allah is He with Whom there is a mighty reward. 008.029 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! If ye keep your duty to Allah, He will give you discrimination (between right and wrong) and will rid you of your evil thoughts and deeds, and will forgive you. Allah is of Infinite Bounty. SHAKIR: O you who believe! If you are careful of (your duty to) Allah, He will grant you a distinction and do away with your evils and forgive you; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace. 008.030 YUSUFALI: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah. PICKTHAL: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters. SHAKIR: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners. 008.031 YUSUFALI: When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients." PICKTHAL: And when Our revelations are recited unto them they say: We have heard. If we wish we can speak the like of this. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old. SHAKIR: And when Our communications are recited to them, they say: We have heard indeed; if we pleased we could say the like of it; this is nothing but the stories of the ancients. 008.032 YUSUFALI: Remember how they said: "O Allah if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous penalty." PICKTHAL: And when they said: O Allah! If this be indeed the truth from Thee, then rain down stones on us or bring on us some painful doom! SHAKIR: And when they said: O Allah! if this is the truth from Thee, then rain upon us stones from heaven or inflict on us a painful punishment. 008.033 YUSUFALI: But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon. PICKTHAL: But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them, nor will He punish them while they seek forgiveness. SHAKIR: But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness. 008.034 YUSUFALI: But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand. PICKTHAL: What (plea) have they that Allah should not punish them, when they debar (His servants) from the Inviolable Place of Worship, though they are not its fitting guardians. Its fitting guardians are those only who keep their duty to Allah. But most of them know not. SHAKIR: And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know. 008.035 YUSUFALI: Their prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed." PICKTHAL: And their worship at the (holy) House is naught but whistling and hand-clapping. Therefore (it is said unto them): Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve. SHAKIR: And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved. 008.036 YUSUFALI: The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;- PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell, SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell. 008.037 YUSUFALI: In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost. PICKTHAL: That Allah may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell. Such verily are the losers. SHAKIR: That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers. 008.038 YUSUFALI: Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). PICKTHAL: Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning). SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed. 008.039 YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do. PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do. 008.040 YUSUFALI: If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help. PICKTHAL: And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper! SHAKIR: And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper. 008.041 YUSUFALI: And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things. PICKTHAL: And know that whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the messenger and for the kinsman (who hath need) and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if ye believe in Allah and that which We revealed unto Our slave on the Day of Discrimination, the day when the two armies met. And Allah is Able to do all things. SHAKIR: And know that whatever thing you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah has power over all things. More on Islamic war greed here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.068 Posted by: LP at December 28, 2003 04:24 PM Saladin, Since you seem willing to post, you're the guy we're talking to. I won't expand on Lili's essay, but going back to the one about the Crusades: I am not suggesting that there weren't plenty of warriors in the West that went to the Holy Land for purposes of loot. But your words from Pope Urban (assuming for the moment that they are correct; I haven't checked your source, which you haven't named) don't support this. The first paragraph ("But if you are hindered by love of children, parents, or of wife...") exhortes the crusaders to not hang back because of their families or their realms. In this he quotes the Gospel to support his theme. He also says that there are too many knights than can be supported by Europe, so advises them to get out and relieve the pressure on their families. The second paragraph (""Let hatred therefore depart from among you..") urges them to take the Holy Land back from the invaders (i.e., the Muslims who had conqured it), and goes on about the significance of Jerusalem. Neither of these paragraphs support your conclusion "as you see...all about Greed." As I said, there was obviously a greed factor involved here, just as there was greed factor involved when the Arab/Muslim hoards rode out of Arabia and plundered the Christian world, including fabled Spain. But the motiviation for Urban was the threat that Islamic armies posed to Constantinople, the holiest city in Christendom at the time; and to redress the wrongs done to Christian pilgrims wishing to visit the Holy Land. It is very facile and "sophisticated" to blame the Crusades solely on "greed;" but if the words of Pope Urban is your argument, you have failed. Posted by: Rob at December 28, 2003 04:33 PM -LP i hate long posts but regarding chapter 8 here is a good news for you...the answer to your bogus understanding of islam and stereotyping was just one click away...go to chapter 8 page and on the left top corner there is a link "Maududi's introduction" click it and try to understand for once in your life what "out of historical context" means..here is the link if you are so (hmmm...i prefer not to say) to find it yourself. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau8.html as for the other post..no thanks,not now..i need to sleep. -Rob the crusades started because of the harsh economic situtuion in europe and the solution was to invade the lands which flow with milk and honey...you can find a historical proof on that if you look at crusaders invasion of constapolis while they were supposed to invade jerusalem....all about greed Posted by: saladin at December 28, 2003 04:55 PM three points before i go to sleep 1-i respect non muslims as long as they respect my faith....it has nothing to do with your gender...although i find its funny you are a female cos my 1st impression was that you like like a truck driver (no offence...i couldn't stop it and u r really aggressive :P) 2-make it Clear NOW!!...are we discussing Islam or Muslims?? there is a big diffrence between the two.. 3-i said ONE subject!!..stop being childish!!..women or islamic economy? Posted by: saladin at December 28, 2003 05:07 PM "go to chapter 8 page and on the left top corner there is a link "Maududi's introduction" click it and try to understand for once in your life what "out of historical context" means." I have read Maududi's introduction, Saladbin. Indeed, I took it out of my post so it would not get overly long. SO WHAT! Muslims adhere to the same tenets today, revenge killings, "honor" killings, multiple wives, subjugation of women, slavery, jihadi terrorism. That is the problem, because Islam has not had a reformation that the majority of Muslims in the world today are still living in the dark ages. The Qu'ran has rules for living in the dark ages of tribalism and not in the modern, secular, democratic, developed world. "the crusades started because of the harsh economic situtuion in europe and the solution was to invade the lands which flow with milk and honey." Now THAT is a stretch!!! LOL The lands of the Arabs do not now, nor have they EVER, flowed with "milk and honey." Some do flow with oil, these days, but that won't last too much longer. The Arabs were poor herdsmen, Saladbin. And unless they get their act together and develop some sort of economy besides oil and international aid, they will have to go back to being camel jockeys when the oil runs out. There are a few lands in the ME that are wealthy, but the Arabs have not developed that wealth as indicated in the UN Report on Arab Development: http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ Israel, that nation of clever people, has made the desert bloom with better things than "milk and honey" they have technology, modern technology in which they are leaders. That is because Jews are into learning and development while Arabs are as backward and as corrupt as they were during the time of Mohammed. No one's fault but their own. The First Crusade was called because Muslims took the Holy Land, by FORCE, away from its rightful inhabitants—the Jews and the Christians. The Crusades thereafter were because of economic reasons that is true—just like today's so-called "crusade" in Iraq is about economics and freedom. But, of course, the Muslims keep shooting themselves into the foot by destroying the goose that laid the golden egg (oil infrastructure). FYI—without oil the whole world would stop—including the lands of the oil parasites, the Arabs. IF the Islamofascist-terrorists should succeed to take the whole world down, then the Muslim world would suffer much more than the civilized world. Perhaps we would have to walk or light candles if there were no more oil but the Arabs, they would starve if they could not sell oil. Which is of course, what Osama and his motley crew have in mind. Interesting that the terrorists all use modern, Western technology for their evil deeds. What do you suppose would happen if the US left Iraq to its own devices—civil war? Muslims murdering Muslims? The return of the Baa'th party? All of the above? "1-i respect non muslims as long as they respect my faith....it has nothing to do with your gender...although i find its funny you are a female cos my 1st impression was that you like like a truck driver (no offence...i couldn't stop it and u r really aggressive :P)" One: No offense. ;-) I can't respect a faith that has murder of the "unbelievers" and the subjugation of women in its religious tenets. Two: I am a free, extremely feminine, Western woman who can fend for herself. My first impression of you was a typical, arrogant (with no reason to be) Muslim male who recites lies about Islam and its greatness without proving anything. I guess seeing Muslims murder innocents every day of the week around the world tends to get one angry and feeling pretty aggressive. It really ticks me off that a bunch of ignorant, backward Islamofascists are trying to take the world back to the 7th century! If they continue, Muslims are likely to meet a lot of Western women with very aggressive stances against murderous Muslim jihadis who come to the West and try to use our freedoms against us. We don't need Muslims coming to the West insisting that we should live under 7th century sharia law! There is almost nothing a free person will not do to defend their freedom and families—especially women! If you think US soldiers are bad—don't mess with Western women, especially American women. Our women are strong, they are not weak like Muslim women who are kept prisoners and have soft bones because their bodies don't get enough sunlight due to the veil. I guarantee you that our female warriors and even our female grand-mothers are a force to be reckoned with! "2-make it Clear NOW!!...are we discussing Islam or Muslims?? there is a big diffrence between the two.." BOTH! What is the difference? Muslims claim the Qu'ran is the "immutable" word of their Allah and that the Qu'ran has not changed in 1400 years (which is not true). It was not even written down until decades after Mohammed's death and there was a burning of various Qur'anic versions at one point. Islam is Muslims and Muslims are Islam. Certainly there are different sects, but they all read and recite the "immutable" Qu'ran, that manual for bigotry and hatred of anyone who is not a Muslim. Whether Sunni, Salafi, Shi'ite, etc. the Qu'ran is what they recite. The Qu'ran is what the Islamic terrorist recite every time they murder innocents via jihad. "3-i said ONE subject!!..stop being childish!!..women or islamic economy?" Stop being DISRESPECTFUL!!! I am NOT your child-like Muslimah, Saladbin. I want to discuss BOTH women and the failing economies of Muslims—especially Arab Muslims. So typical of a Muslim to claim someone is "childish" or "immature" if they (the Muslim) can't handle the heat from the questions. I am a highly educated, well travelled, professional Western woman who has studied Islam and has had much to do with Muslim men professionally. It is a fact that Muslim men as a group are very, very hung up about their sexuality and unsure of their masculinity. That is why they must dominate their women. Obviously, Mohammed had a BIG problem even within the historical context: • Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surly God is high, supreme. (Surah Al-Nisa, Ayah 34) • Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and slave-girls whom God has given you as booty; the daughters of your paternal and maternal uncles and of your paternal and maternal aunts who fled with you; and any believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet wishes to take in marriage. This privilege is yours alone, being granted to no other believer. We well know the duties We have imposed on the faithful concerning their wives and slave-girls. (Surah Al-Ahzab, Ayah 50 • Mohammed asked some women, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?" The women said, "yes," He said, "This is because of the deficiency of the woman's mind. " Vol. 3:826 • Mohammed to women: "I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you." Vol. 2:541 • "The majority of people in hell are women." I am challenging you and other Muslims to PROVE that Islam is not an intolerant, hateful, bigoted, misanthropic, misogynistic system of mind-control that wants to take over the world as is commanded in the Qu'ran. • Slay those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and his apostle have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay jaziah out of hand and are utterly subdued Surah Al-Tawbah (Repentence), Ayah 29, . . • We carry our beliefs on the tip of our swords. (Imam Ali's Nahaj ol-balaghah) Here are a few questions to you: Why are you in the West, Saladbin? Do you have allegiance to Islam first or your adopted nation? If you are not a legal resident of the West, then why are you here? Do you believe that the whole world should be ruled by Islam? "Holy war means the conquest of all non-Moslem territories. Such a war may well be declared after the formation of an Islamic government worthy of that name, at the direction of the Iman or under his order. It will then be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put Koranic Law into power from one end of the earth to the other." Ayatollah Khomeini I would like you, Saladbin, to prove that Islam is compatible with modernity, democracy, secularism and pluralism as well as the rule of secular-law. I don't believe you can, because I don't believe Islam can be compatible with modernity unless there is a Reformation in Islam refuting the bigoted, hateful passages of jihad that mandate to subjugate or murder of the "unbeliever." Lili Posted by: LP at December 28, 2003 08:44 PM Below, for your edification, Saladbin, are 5 scholarly texts of the speech made by Pope Urban II (1088-1099) as he called the First Crusade BECAUSE the Muslims had STOLEN the Holy Land from the Jews and the Christians via WAR. Your "milk and honey" speech was taken from Robert the Monk who wrote it perhaps 25 years after the speech was made based on the Gesta version— a very short version of the speech. [Circa 1100-1101, an anonymous writer connected with Bohemund of Antioch wrote the Gesta francorum et aliorum Hierosolymytanorum; (The Deeds of the Franks) This text was used by the later writers as a source.] It is disputed as to whether Robert the Monk was in attendance at Pope Urban II's speech. Clearly, he and the other writers of the speech, did a lot of embellishing from the Gesta version. ----- Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095, Five versions of the Speech ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In 1094 or 1095, Alexios I Komnenos, the Byzantine emperor, sent to the pope, Urban II, and asked for aid from the west against the Seljuq Turks, who taken nearly all of Asia Minor from him. At the council of Clermont Urban addressed a great crowd and urged all to go to the aid of the Greeks and to recover Palestine from the rule of the Muslims. The acts of the council have not been preserved, but we have five accounts of the speech of Urban which were written by men who were present and heard him. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html This text is part of the Internet Medieval Source Book: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history. ------ Urban II: Letter of Instruction to the Crusaders, December 1095 Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing. Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified b His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following. Source: August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 42-43 ----- BTW—The Crusading Christians were enraged that Muslims desecrated the Holy Places by defiling them with human waste. The same complaint is made today in modern Rome, where Muslims have been noted defiling Christian baptismals in the same, "time honored" manner. Journalist Oriana Fallaci describes their piss-stains on the walls of a cathedral in Florence in her book, The Rage & the Pride" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0847825043/qid%3D1046702743/sr%3D2-1/ref%3Dsr%5F2%5F1/103-8270012-0778232 . “Good Heavens!” She rages, “They take really long shots, these sons of Allah! How could they succeed in hitting so well that target protected by a balcony and more than two yards distant from their urinary apparatus?” I personally have seen Muslims in Europe piss on church walls in full view of the populace walking by. People don't have the nerve to say anything to them because they scream "racism" and become violent. Now, tell us Saladbin, what would happen if a Westerner defiled a mosque in such a way? Lili Posted by: LP at December 28, 2003 09:55 PM Hi, I've been following your thread although I haven't finished reading today's comments. Lili asks for something positive to say about Islam. I'd like to answer from my perspective as a progressive Muslim. I find the praying ritual to be spiritually satisfying: Prostrating myself before God and concentrating on the words as I pray. Asking God to take care of my loved ones and show me the way. Asking for forgiveness for my sins. Feeling that maybe he's forgiving me. Telling God about my problems and feeling that He is listening, especially when I get a flash of insight into my problems. Reading a few verses of the Qu'ran and meditating on the meaning and sometimes doing the zekr using prayer beads. I don't get this feeling every time because I am usually distracted by every day concerns, but when it does happen it feels like a spiritual bath. And when it happens during Ramadan, it is even better. My private time with God, that to me is the best part of Islam. Posted by: Mahsheed at December 28, 2003 10:07 PM Thanks very much, Mahsheed. However, somehow that is not specific enough about Islam. After all, anyone who prays, whether to Allah, Vishnu, God, Jehova, etc. gets the same feelings of communing with his maker. These are certainly not exclusive to Islam. "My private time with God, that to me is the best part of Islam." That is the best part for me also, but I get that by talking to God while marveling at Nature or listening to glorious music or looking at inspired art or looking into the eyes of my precious dog. How do you deal with the dark side of Islam? The hundreds of text that are filled with violence and hatred against all who are not Muslim? The specific texts that denigrate the Jews and the "infidels"—that is the WHOLE rest of the world. How do you deal with the Islamic radicals who are really following the tenets of Islam to the letter? One of the reasons I am not a member of an organized religion is because of the hypocrisy. I am revolted by the Catholic Church and the recent pedophilia scandals. Which are certainly not new since these things have happened through the ages. I am also furious at this Pope for his ludicrous stance on women and birth control. But, Islam is at the top of the hypocrisy list for me because Islam claims so many things and then does the opposite—which is really what is in the Qu'ran. Muslims claim "Islam is Peace" when it is really submission to a god who calls on the "true believers to murder the "other" and fight until the whole world is Islamic. Fight— not love, not preach, but fight! Blood for Islam is the barbaric call that Mohammed makes time, after time, after time in the Qu'ran. Islam claims to have "given" women rights. But, it says right in the Qu'ran that they are lesser beings. Mohammed underscores that in the hadith. Nowhere in the Islamic world are women equal to men. Nowhere! And they have never been seen as equal, not even in the "idyllic" time of Mohammed, regardless of whether Aisha was a warrior on occasion or not, she was still subject to purdah. Even Muslimahs living in the West have to pray at the back of the mosque or in the basement. While their men can dress comfortably in Western clothing, pious Muslimahs are veiled to one degree or another. That is not equality! What about all that sex with 72 virgins and rivers of non-intoxicating wine in the Muslim Paradise? Doesn't that strike you as bizarre? Especially since all those sorts of pleasures are denied the "true believer" in this life? Now, new scholarship shows that there has been an error in translation and 72 Houris (virgins) are really 72 white raisins—which actually makes sense for the poor desert lands of very little "milk and honey." Good food is always more precious than sex with virgins, even for sex obsessed Arabs. Those Arabs, BTW, take sex flights to Thailand just as the Europeans do. How do you reconcile yourself with those things, Mahsheed? Do you simply ignore the atrocities that Muslims are committing around the world (and have committed since the inception of Islam) in the name of their Allah, as commanded by the Qu'ran? The most positive thing I see in Islam is the physical beauty of the calligraphied Qu'ran or the grandeur of the mosques. But, the teachings horrify me! Lili Posted by: LP at December 28, 2003 11:18 PM I've found this article to be rather telling. Lili ----- Islam is wonderful, but I can't stand the Muslims http://www.islamfortoday.com/malik01.htm "Why should I try to convert my non-Muslim friends when I often prefer them to the Muslims that I know? How will being Muslim change their lives for the better if they already display more of the Islamic virtues than most of the Muslims they are likely to meet?" By British convert to Islam, Michael A. Malik. There was a white face in the mosque. You don't see very many, so I went over and asked if he was a Muslim, “I used to be, but not any more.” he said, “I thought Islam was wonderful, but I couldn't stand the Muslims”. What could I say except “I know how you feel”;. Most converts do. Of course one meets some special individuals in encounters with the ummah, but how is it possible that in the Muslim world they seem so few and far between? Does my being a cultural alien mean that I am inherently less capable of understanding Islam, or is it just that I don't understand my fellow Muslims? Why is it that a trip to the mosque so often leaves me closer to despair than hope? Why do I so rarely feel enlightened and uplifted after conversation with my fellow Muslims, yet so often offended by their behaviour, frustrated by their mindless approach to truth, and enraged by the inadequacy of the Islam they expect me to accept? How often I have felt like giving it all up. Fortunately I was a Muslim for four years before going to the Muslim world and meeting those who feel that Islam belongs to them by birthright, so I early on formed a relationship with God which served to armour me against the ummah. The first time I went into a mosque in a Muslim country, the first thing to happen was that someone tried to throw me out. Now they weren’t to know that I was a Muslim but they didn't even ask. When I told them, in fact, the first thing they did ask was “Sunni or Shi’a?”, so if I'd picked the wrong one they would probably have thrown me out anyway. I thoroughly confused them when I said I didn't care, however, and eventually they let me stop and pray. First impressions last a long time, they say, but many years after having learned by experience the best way to get in, pray, and get out without harassment, it still seems that in a strange mosque a strange face is more likely to be greeted with hostility than welcome. The man in the editor's office was obviously a Muslim, so the brusque arrogance of his manner should not have come as a surprise. It did little, however, to incline me towards composing a careful answer, too much effort was required to remain courteous, and it seemed more like a challenge than a question. “And how many of your people have you converted?” he said, but I suspect the answer was more complex than he really wanted to hear. “Converted to what?” is the first response. Islam presumably, yet here we have a huge assumption that we both agree on what that is. Why should I try to convert my non-Muslim friends when I often prefer them to the Muslims that I know? How will being Muslim change their lives for the better if they already display more of the Islamic virtues than most of the Muslims they are likely to meet? I share what I have found when they show Interest, but like me they often look at the Muslim world and wonder what we have in common. They find it hard to see living examples of the principles of which I speak. I came to Islam through a search for Truth, but I found that in practice most Muslims give the truth a very low priority, and I can still be shocked by their facility for saying whatever they think suits the conversation best. Along with truth goes trustworthiness, surely an Islamic virtue, yet travelling through the Muslim world I met Muslims eager to sit down and discuss breaking an agreement not two minutes after sealing it with a pious recitation of Al Fatiha [first chapter of the Quran]. And closer to home how distasteful it is to belong to a community so notorious with regard to paying bills. How about Mercy and Compassion - those words now repeatedly on my Muslim lips. In three years of travelling through the Muslim world, hardly a day passed without some stranger feeling he ought to instruct me in the principles of Islam. In all that time, in all these casual encounters, not only was mercy never given pride of place, but I actually don't recall it ever having been given a place at all. It is not necessary for my friends to look to the Muslim heartlands, when at home the Muslim example can be confused with “My Beautiful Launderette”. But they see the Muslim heartlands every evening an TV, with their dictators and demagogues thick on the ground, oppressive and unjust societies, poverty and ignorance. There is no point in telling friends that Islam is a complete way of life. That it is a way to achieve joy and fulfillment in this life, hope and trust when approaching the next, and the perfect basis for a tolerant and peaceful society for all humanity. What can I answer when someone says “Show me!” - “Point to a Muslim country you can use as an example.” My Islam sees in the prophet endless examples of forgiveness and tolerance, yet my friends see the mindless enforcement of rigid laws and eccentric punishments. I sometimes explain, but could just as well tell tales of Shari'a court corruption and injustice. My Islam insists on individual freedom, there is no compulsion, no priests are needed, and except for piety all men are equal. I kneel before no man, though I will kneel in prayer beside any, and my wealth and privilege is permitted, though charity is to be preferred, and the prophet chose to die a pauper. My friends can understand and be drawn to such principles, but unless they can see this utopia in a more tangible form than my theories they are surely destined to remain cynical about their possible fulfillment. As long as I can't show them examples of Muslims living in a way they consider preferable to their own, I won't worry too much about their conversion. They see my Islam as a pipe dream, and who knows, perhaps they are right. The task is of course even harder when the friends concerned are women, as the clichéd platitudes of Islamic freedom and equality mean nothing when such highly visible inequities and oppression are impossible to hide. Since I came back to this country there has been much talk in the Muslim community about an “identity crisis”. But the business successes of their family networks show that Muslims have no problem in identifying themselves with other Muslims, they just have trouble in identifying themselves with anything recognisable as Islam. In fact it seems that most Muslims would rather have as little to do with Islam as possible from the moment they are old enough to avoid it. “Brother, let me tell you the most important thing in Islam”, said the stranger who had cornered me in a Lahore coffee bar. Far from agog, I waited to hear what it might be, though experience had taught me that it was unlikely to include any of the five pillars, truth or tolerance, or the like. “The most important thing in Islam” he said “is that your wife covers her head”, a view of Islam which I had heard often from many Muslim men. In other words the most important thing in the practice of Islam is to get your wife to do it, or your children, or your grandfather, or anybody but yourself! Back in Britain I listened to the Muslim wails. “We are losing our children! By the time they leave school they are strangers, lost to us and to Islam! What can we do?” My usual response was often faced with dismay – “I can say what I think you should do, but it's unlikely that you will do it, because it involves changing yourselves. It involves changing the way you understand your Islam”. This is not suggesting wholesale innovation, as it might seem to imply, but quite the reverse. “It is necessary to revive that Muslim community which is buried under the debris of the manmade traditions of several generations, and which is crushed under the weight of those false laws and customs which are not remotely related to Islamic teachings, and which, in spite of all this, calls itself the ‘world of Islam’” (Qutb - Milestones). It's time to get back to the real thing - and I don't mean coca cola. As I waited to begin my talk to the gathering of young Muslims I engaged in conversation with the group. A nice, quiet, attentive, well-mannered lot I thought. Then time to begin, but the mike wasn't working, and they waited “Testing! Testing! 123...” for while. Rather than just read numbers, it seemed more appropriate to read some Qur’an - after all, I was going to be talking about prayer. To my amazement, the first words of Fatihah seemed to fall in the room like a grenade, turning the group into a rabble. Punches flew, people rolled on the floor, conversations were attempted back and forth across the room, and Fatihah was generally taken as Time Out. If these were the ones at a Muslim conference, what on earth would the Muslim youth who weren't there have been like? Now it's not that I'm a one for excessive displays of reverence, I see my religion more in a practical kind of way, but this was , which the Prophet called the best of the chapters of the Qur'an, and which Al-Ghazali called the key to Paradise. These words are not recited in every rakat of prayer without good reason. The outward displays of reverence, such as venerating a Qur'an, placing it high up and wrapped away, cannot do justice to the awe and wonder this surah deserves. But if a Muslim does not have a reason for this reverence which satisfies his understanding, the outward displays become hollow and easy to discard. At the exhibition, the school kids of all ages were milling around looking at the World of Islam. As they tried to find the answers for their question sheets it was clear that Muslim kids knew little more than all the rest. No wonder our young people are losing their Islam. They have received so little to start off with. From out of the crowd around the Qur'an, one boy said to the teacher “I can read that!”, and proceeded to do so - more fluently than I could have done myself. The teacher was obviously highly impressed, but then asked the obvious question, “What does it mean?”, and the boys satisfaction turned to wry embarrassment. “I don't know”, he shrugged, and that was the end of that. Now our young people are not stupid. Muslims have a better academic record than most groupings, as a glance at the honours board of your local school will show. The teacher's response was a common sense question, one that anyone might have expected in the situation. The embarrassment came from the common sense questions that remained unspoken, “Then why did you learn it?”, “What use is it to you?”, “Is this a skill without a purpose?” The teacher implicitly understood that these are questions you do not ask, and neither it seems do Muslims. It is as though Muslims are afraid that Islam can't stand up to common sense questions, yet Fatihah alone can satisfy whatever intellectual demands are put upon it and still remain inexhaustible. Are we passing on the key to the door of paradise, and forgetting to explain how you use it to open the lock. If young Muslims are not shown the full richness of Islamic knowledge, we must not be surprised if they show more interest in fields where there seems further to explore. It will take some time before mosques are again centres of learning in all its aspects, places of research, experimentation and debate concerning our understanding of God and Creation. But when western educated young Muslim adults begin to search for their spiritual roots, God willing, they will uncover the means of reinvigorating the ummah, and leading them in the example of the Companions. If our Islam is not like theirs, filled with a sense of awe, wonder and excitement, can we really be doing justice to the service of Allah. In such a situation, we will find new Muslims drawn towards the mosque. At the moment, amidst the ummah they are more likely to find Islam expressed as a cultural adjunct, where even the five pillars are avoided. But if the pillars are treated as unnecessary then what is needed to be Muslim, and if they are necessary how many Muslims are there in the ummah? This goes to the heart of the conversation question, as we need to know what is essential for a person to be considered Muslim. Do Muslims in fact expect more from a convert than they do from those born in their cultures? How little does a westerner have to do before Muslims accept him as Muslim, and how far can he stray from their cultural norm before they consider him a disturbing intrusion and would rather that he stayed away? Is the reason there are not more converts because they would disturb the status quo? But our effect on our surrounding society is a mirror to our behaviour and how well we represent Islam. We must live in a way that seems preferable and then at least partially satisfy the expectations of the inquisitive. Once upon a time, Islam spread like wildfire. In a few short years the Message spread to Morocco and to China. Millions welcomed the good news, and quickly shaped their lives around it. Now Islam may be fast growing in the third world regions, but here in the West Muslims face a peculiar reaction to their invitations to join them in their faith, as almost nobody wants anything to do with it. If the message we are passing on no longer seems to have the same effect, is it not time to consider if we just have a communications problem, or whether we ourselves are abusing the message? Fortunately we still have the original - all we have to do is understand it! http://www.islamfortoday.com/malik01.htm

Posted by: Lilith at December 29, 2003 12:15 AM Lili, You are right that praying to God is not exclusive to Islam. There are other ways to pray or meditate or feel close to God thru nature, etc. I do not go so far as to claim that praying the Islamic way is the best or only way to pray. I just meant that for me the best part of Islam is the praying ritual. When I talk to God outside of this ritual the communication feels one-way to me and I don't feel God talking back. But when I engage in the praying ritual properly I feel that I have God's ear no matter what and that just by the fact that I am engaging in the ritual that God loves me back. For me any other form of praying feels like I might as well talk to a brick wall and I don't feel validated. Hypothetically speaking, were I to leave Islam and convert to another religion (hypothetically speaking) I would miss this form of prayer. Specifically that it is private (no middle man), portable (to use a computer term), structured, and daily. You ask how do I reconcile the dark side of Islam? Prior to 911 I sincerely believed what you might call the public face of Islam--i.e. that Islam is a religion of peace that embraces diversity, gives status to women, etc. I also had a personal belief that religion is like hygiene (eg taking a bath) in that it is purely personal. I believed that whenever religion is mixed with politics or even communal religion that nothing good can come of it. So I did not give priority to communal activities. I've probably attended mosque on average once a year. Whenever I read the Qur'an the parts about Jews, women etc, I just read thru them quickly because they are more in the beginning chapters to get to the good stuff. Those plus the administrative verses don't give me a spiritual buzz so I'd read it and move on. The stuff about Jews or whatever else that made me uncomfortable I just ascribed to being local to the Prophet's time (meaning that I thought those verses were specific to that time and place) or else I thought that a later revelation superceded it, or the interpretation is different. As regards the hadith and sonnat I was the same way. I ignored the misogynistic ones and favored the ones similar to the ones Saladin cites. In short, I simply never noticed the bad stuff and thought anything bad in Islam stems from cultural practices or incorrect interpretations. Then 911 happened which along with subsequent events shocked me. But the biggest shocker was the result of 911 allowing the veil of political correctness to be lifted from the Muslim communities and then I found out how radical I am. Before I had the illusion that I was a typical Muslim. (I am still surprised by things that Fatima says, like when she says Muslims believe that non-Muslims are going to hell.) And I never saw anything wrong in Islam itself, but now I see that things are not that simple. So in answer to how do I reconcile the atrocities today, the answer is I don't. My transformation is still ongoing, but I can tell you a little of it. I've basically decided I'm not going to sit around and wait for the much-needed reformation or renaissance which probably won't happen during my life-time. I've reformed myself and will wait for the rest of the Muslim world to catch up. I realize that this will not be acceptable to people like Saladin, because Muslims have a horror of bed-aat (innovation). I figure that given the situation of not having any leaders or scholars, it is my right to take the stance of Martin Luther King and use my conscious as my guide. Why should I trust some ignoramous uneducated backwater Mullah or think that he has any bearing on my life? I also have a private deal with God that I will reiterate to Him on Judgement Day. Obviously this answer is specific to myself and I don't speak for anyone else and I realize that may not satisfy you. But I have noticed that there seems to be a progressive Islam movement that you might want to look into. Posted by: Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 01:19 AM Lilith: "Once upon a time, Islam spread like wildfire. In a few short years the Message spread to Morocco and to China. Millions welcomed the good news, and quickly shaped their lives around it." Are you really sure it was welcomed? Mahsheed: Are you sure you know Islam? I ask that because it's very easy to pick and choose what to believe, but that in no way does it make the bad things go away. Maybe you are just a spiritual being who wants to believe in something. My feeling is that organized religions are wrong. They do not even come close to knowing God, if there is one. Religion is just a way to fool ourselves that we won't die. Because if there is another life after this one, then we don't really die do we. We are just in some place waiting for the next world, or heaven and hell. Why is it so hard to believe that we are born, and eventually will die, and that is all there is to it? The Gods of the Abrahamic religions are very human, or have very human qualities. Like jealousy, anger, and cruelty to name a few. How can God be jealous of us humans? How can we burn in hell for all eternity for not believing in him? Is that a just God? Would a just God give very ambiguous texts and expect us to just believe? Why is belief rather than facts or knowledge valued so much in religions? I could go on and on but I won't. Posted by: DangerMouse at December 29, 2003 08:33 AM DangerMouse, You could equally address these questions to the followers of any religion. There are questionable verses in the Bible (e.g., Leveticus) that no one gives a second thought to. I understand why it's harder to believe in a divinely inspired but not meant to be taken literally text than to be literal about it or not believe it at all (I mean all or nothing is easier than nuanced). I believe the proof of God is in our hearts. Isn't it telling that people are striving so hard to believe in something that when they reject God they fill the void with something else? Like the pursuit of money, power, status, the perfect body, communism? Like the fine people at PETA? :) The need to believe in something is hardwired into us and you can argue about social Darwinism etc, but social Darwinism is also a form of religion to some, and it can't be proved one way or another (as opposed to regular evolution which is scientific fact). Atheism is a religion in itself, I've seen atheists. I've even seen how atheism can be defined as shaped by Christian beliefs; you might even categorize them as anti-Christian atheists, etc. If you look closely many atheists have replaced one set of unsupportable beliefs with another set and they don't even know it, e.g., the multiple universe theory in fashion right now which to me seems contrived solely to get around the need for God. IMO God spoke to people at their own level. Perhaps He didn't feel that He needs to tell us stuff that we can find out for ourself, such as the world is round and other verifiable stuff. He only told us things we couldn't verify. I believe He did this to level the playing field as he didn't want a particular group of people to have an advantage of scientific technology that others didn't. He created the laws of the universe but then hid Himself from it. We know the secret to DNA yet we still can't create life, control disease, make artificial intelligence; on every front there is a glass ceiling. And He didn't allow material advantages to make one happier. Happiness or lack thereof is obviously distributed by God, IMO, and the secret to obtaining it has never changed thru-out the ages. Otherwise the richer people would be happier, but you can see everyone has their own demons.

Anyways, these are just my own personal thoughts offered to you since you asked. Posted by: Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 09:23 AM ""Once upon a time, Islam spread like wildfire. In a few short years the Message spread to Morocco and to China. Millions welcomed the good news, and quickly shaped their lives around it." Islam spread like the plague it is because Muslims had armies. They spread Islam via WAR! Those who would not "submit" to Islam were butchered. Women and children were routinely made slaves. That is not a peaceful religion spreading it is a misanthropic Islamic empire. --- "You are right that praying to God is not exclusive to Islam.. . I just meant that for me the best part of Islam is the praying ritual." But, there's the rub, Mahsheed, Islam is very, very adamant about how and when and what one must pray. Indeed, in "fully" Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia, you will be forced to pray 5 times a day by being herded to the mosque by the religious police. You, as a woman (at least I believe you are a woman, given that you present none of the typical male Muslim's arrogance and nihilism on this board) are discounted. You will be locked into a shop should you not happen to get out on time when the prayer call comes. In these "pure" Islamic countries, who are following the Qu'ran to the letter as dictated by Mohammed, there are even signs on shop windows that say, "No Women!" Reminds me of the "No blacks and dogs!" signs that used to abound in the US. Islam discriminates AGAINST women in every facet of life, even in with prayer. "When I talk to God outside of this ritual the communication feels one-way to me and I don't feel God talking back. . . .Specifically that it is private (no middle man), portable (to use a computer term), structured, and daily." The praying "ritual" is universal, Mahsheed. It is not exclusive to Islam. There appear to be brain receptors that release endorphins (chemicals that make one feel good) when rituals, particularly chanting, are employed for religious or meditative practices. Other religions use prayer beads, songs, chants and repetitive prayer as a way of reaching God. It always astounds me that Islam bills itself to be "the one and only" and is willing to "prove" that via subjugation, violence and murder. ALL other religions employ similar rituals. It is highly presumptuous of Islam to set itself up—in the Qu'ran—as the "one and only" religion favored by God. While Christians are asked to bring the "good news" to those who don't know of Jesus, ONLY Islam is mandated in its so-called "holy" book to bring Islam to the "unbeliever" via violence if the targeted population won't "submit". The ISSUE is the mandate to violence in that book! But, of course, we are not talking about a religion IMHO, we are talking about an Islamic empire making manual, wrapped in the guise of religion. "You ask how do I reconcile the dark side of Islam?" "Prior to 911 I sincerely believed what you might call the public face of Islam--i.e. that Islam is a religion of peace that embraces diversity, gives status to women, etc. . . ." Surely you are aware that as a woman, you are not welcome in a mosque, Mahsheed? Because you bleed, especially when you do, you are Haram! Indeed, you must go to the back of that mosque or to another, separate room. That is NOT equality before God! If Muslims are so paranoid about women's derrieres up in the air in front of them leading to "impure" thoughts, they could do what Orthodox Jews do, divide the congregation down the middle—men on one side, women on the other. But, the very idea that women must be at the back of the mosque, behind a curtain or a barrier is just one of the things that makes the "status" of women in Islam a BIG LIE! If it were not for women, Mohammed and all his jihadis would not have been brought into the world. "Whenever I read the Qur'an the parts about Jews, women etc, I just read thru them quickly because they are more in the beginning chapters to get to the good stuff." You are aware that it is the sequence of these so-called "revelations" that is important, Mahsheed. That the latter "revealed" passages supersede the former. This is THE issue you know. The SEQUENCE of the "revelations." "Those plus the administrative verses don't give me a spiritual buzz so I'd read it and move on. The stuff about Jews or whatever else that made me uncomfortable I just ascribed to being local to the Prophet's time (meaning that I thought those verses were specific to that time and place) or else I thought that a later revelation superceded it, or the interpretation is different. " The Qu'ran is a poem, Mahsheed. It is not written in chronological order. Thus, you may want to look up just which passages were revealed when. Most of the violent passages revealed AFTER the "peaceful" period at Mecca, when the "prophet"could not get anywhere with that. These are superseded by the ones revealed later in Medina. Medina is where Mohammed got his armies together to do bloody battle for Islam. The Islamo-fascist terrorists quote the latter revealed passages from Medina. They are following Islam as it is supposed to be followed—to the letter! As to the "local Prophet's time" why is it that Christianity does not have such passages against the "other"? Certainly the Old Testament has some passages against the Gentiles; however, Judaism is not known for waging wars of annihilation against non-Jews through the ages. WHY is it that ONLY Islam is so hateful against the "other"? I believe it is because Islam is not really a religion but rather a social, political and legal framework devised to build an empire—all in the guise of "religion." I would suggest you READ the passages that make you uncomfortable for this revelation to hit home! To ignore the misanthropy and misoginy that IS Islam, is to be complicit in its crimes against humanity! "As regards the hadith and sonnat I was the same way. I ignored the misogynistic ones and favored the ones similar to the ones Saladin cites. In short, I simply never noticed the bad stuff and thought anything bad in Islam stems from cultural practices or incorrect interpretations." But, Islam is not permitted to be "interpreted." The Islamo-fascist terrorist are not interpreting, they are DOING what the Qu'ran commands them to do—KILL the infidel! "Then 911 happened which along with subsequent events shocked me. . . . And I never saw anything wrong in Islam itself, but now I see that things are not that simple. So in answer to how do I reconcile the atrocities today, the answer is I don't. . . . "I've reformed myself and will wait for the rest of the Muslim world to catch up." But, that sort of attitude is EXACTLY the problem, Mahsheed, the SILENCE of "reformed" or so-called "moderate" Muslims makes them COMPLICIT in the crimes of Islam against humanity. There were people the world over who were silent when the Nazis were attempting to exterminate the Jews. Don't you realize that the terrorists would kill YOU as an apostate, just the same way they would kill the rest of us as "infidels"? If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem, Mahsheed. All Muslims who keep silent are COMPLICIT in the terrorists' crimes. "I realize that this will not be acceptable to people like Saladin, because Muslims have a horror of bed-aat (innovation). I figure that given the situation of not having any leaders or scholars, it is my right to take the stance of Martin Luther King and use my conscious as my guide. Why should I trust some ignoramous uneducated backwater Mullah or think that he has any bearing on my life? I also have a private deal with God that I will reiterate to Him on Judgement Day." . . . seems to be a progressive Islam movement that you might want to look into." Please give us some links about this "progressive" movement in Islam. Odd, that Islam claims not to have any "leaders or scholars" yet there are plenty of them leading nations and issuing fatwas. "France faces fatwa over hijab ban" http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_53930.asp?MSID=7575bf9d48d64730b0d3b0f2baedac7c Given that you live in the West, Mahsheed, I suppose you generally don't have to worry about the "backwater" mullahs. However, if you should become an activist for reform in Islam, then your life might be in danger from some crazy (male) adherent to the "immutable" doctrine of the Qu'ran, Mahsheed. And THAT is clearly the fear that Muslims have. When Muslims or even other people write and expose the truth about Islam it is a rare person, such as Salman Rushdie, who has the nerve to do it under his own name. Ibn Warraq (pseud) comes to mind with his "Why I am Not a Muslim". People always ask Fatimah why she does not leave Islam? Perhaps part of the issue is the fear of the loss of community as well as the danger in doing so? Clever guy that Mohammed. "All for one and one for all." Anyone who differs is toast! What a way to build a universal, world-wide empire. I always find it amusing that Muslims look backward on Islamic Imperialism with great reverence and pride while looking forward to Islamic 7th century hegemony with bizarre longing. What will all the silent Muslims say to their Allah on judgment day? Perhaps this Allah will be pleased that Muslims committed so many atrocities against humanity; It is however, doubtful that God will. Lili Posted by: LP at December 29, 2003 10:05 AM To all: I use caps for emphasis. I am NOT shouting. If the system permitted HTML I would use italics. ;-) ----- " There are questionable verses in the Bible (e.g., Leveticus) that no one gives a second thought to." Certainly there are "questionable" verses in the Bible. However, the difference is that there are not HUNDREDS of them against EVERY nation and women as there are in the Qu'ran. Also the BIGGEST difference is that other religions are not committing genocide and atrocities against the WHOLE of the human race on EVERY continent like Muslims are in the name of Islam. BTW—The New Testament has only "love thy neighbor" sorts of passages. Jesus was billed as "The Price of Peace." Jesus never led armies in BLOODY battles against the "unbelievers." I would say that Mohammed was the Emperor of War! "I understand why it's harder to believe in a divinely inspired but not meant to be taken literally text than to be literal about it or not believe it at all (I mean all or nothing is easier than nuanced)." The Qu'ran is meant to be taken literally. That is another one of its problems, that "immutability" issue—the "perfect and unchangeable" word of Allah that cannot adapt to different ages. It is clear that Islam will always leave its adherents living in the dark ages unless there is a Reformation. " when they reject God they fill the void with something else? Like the pursuit of money, power, status, the perfect body, communism?" This is another one of those CROCKS in Islam. Muslim nations have tons of pornography, drugs, prostitution and general crime as does the rest of the world. The statistics are astounding. And we don't even have the true ones available because Islamic nations hide these. Yet, they LIE and pretend these issues don't exist because they are "Islamic" and better than the rest of humanity. Additionally, the exporting of Western luxury goods to the Islamic world is massive! Perfumes, lingerie, fancy clothing, pornography, "sexual aides"—these all go to the Islamic world. What do you think those pious Muslimahs wear under their black abayas? In Iran the girls these days are wearing as little as possible. I've seen chadors with YSL letters in DIAMONDS at the temple. Muslimahs wear tons of perfume and little bells on their ankles to "entice" those poor, undisciplined Muslim males. If you can only see a woman's eyes and the tips of her fingers then wafting perfume and the tinkle of bells around and imagined "shapely" ankle could probably drive such a man into a sexual frenzy. LOL ;-) The bottom line is that, what is here for us to enjoy in this God-given life does not mean we cannot or are not religious as well. Most Americans, for example, consider themselves very religious and go to church. The only reason Muslims take the high-road about "Western decadence" and consumerism is because they can't seem to get their acts together enough to produce the good life and go to mosque at the same time 5 times a day. That is why the Islamic paradise is FILLED with all the DECADENCE and sexual deviance that is denied to Muslims in this life—72 raisins. LOL Sheer hypocrisy! " the multiple universe theory in fashion right now which to me seems contrived solely to get around the need for God." Is it anymore contrived than a hateful Allah who commands his followers to "Kill the unbelievers where you find them" and that the "true believer" gets to go to the Decadent Islamic Paradise as a reward for murder? "IMO God spoke to people at their own level." Whoa! That means Muslims are at a pretty low level given that most still live in the 7th century or not much further along in the middle ages. That's the problem for me. Islam is so NEGATIVE, so blaming, so unproductive. "We know the secret to DNA yet we still can't create life, control disease, make artificial intelligence; on every front there is a glass ceiling." It is a common problem that Muslims are very poorly educated the world over, even in the West. FYI—we can and have created "life" in the lab. At least there have been enough experiments to "give life" to microbial creatures to get a handle on how life might have evolved on our planet. We have controlled or eradicated most diseases that used to devastate humanity in previous ages. Of course, there are always new ones coming up. It would be nice if the Islamic world did its share in assisting to research and eradicate such plagues instead of always just USING the fruits of the labors of the Jews and the "infidels." If it were not for oil, Muslims would contribute not much of anything to the world economy. They don't educate their people, they don't do research, they only take. Lots of Muslims use Western developed technology, fly patients to be treated in Western medical facilities, use Western developments in agriculture and health care, etc. So, what does that say about "superior" Islam and its way of life? "And He didn't allow material advantages to make one happier. Happiness or lack thereof is obviously distributed by God, IMO, and the secret to obtaining it has never changed thru-out the ages. Otherwise the richer people would be happier, but you can see everyone has their own demons." This is another CROCK! Over 50% of Arab young people want to emigrate from their miserable lives of SERIOUS want in Islamic states. We are not talking about Joe Millionaire here. We are talking about basic needs for decent shelter, clean water, enough food, healthcare and some luxuries like the occasional new clothes. All over the world people long for what we in the West have. Indeed Islam promises the "true believers" all the luxuries and decadence of this world in the next. If opulence and decadence are so bad, then why promise it in Paradise, Mahsheed? More than anything, it is the hypocrisy and the nihilism of Islam that makes people's heads spin. God helps those who help themselves! The secret of happiness is love and work. Muslims should learn that. Work and loving their fellow man as themselves will set them free! Lili Posted by: LP at December 29, 2003 11:00 AM Amazing and well said LP! Mahsheed: Thank you for your opinions, but you said: "The need to believe in something is hardwired into us..." Are you sure we are not brainwashed by our parents into believing whatever it is they believed? When it comes to religions it is extremely hard to overcome what you have been taught, and told since you were born. That includes all religions. you also said; "Perhaps He didn't feel that He needs to tell us stuff that we can find out for ourself, such as the world is round and other verifiable stuff." What if he did say or imply that the earth was flat? What then? I refer to the following: // (Q. 18:86) Until when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a People. We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness."\\ There are other places in the koran where it mentions of an earth as a carpet, spread out, etc... Also: "Atheism is a religion in itself,..." I am not an atheist, I consider myself agnostic. I don't think atheism is a religion, because who do they pray to? What rituals do they do? Also: "If you look closely many atheists have replaced one set of unsupportable beliefs with another set and they don't even know it..." Do you mean that you have unsupportable beliefs? Also: "He created the laws of the universe but then hid Himself from it." How do you know these things? I know we all have opinions but why do people who believe in religions always know what god wants? And last but not least: "Otherwise the richer people would be happier..." They are much happier, but that does not mean there are no problems. For example a rich person has to decide between restaurants, while a poor person has to greatful for any food.

Life is full of problems that have to solved. I thank you again for your opinions, and hope you will find true answers and not always rely on faith. Posted by: DangerMouse at December 29, 2003 11:01 AM Lili, With all due respect can you please from now on answer me back in organized paragraphs rather than line by line? The line by line format is distracting and tedious and scatters my thoughts. Now I have to go over your points and take notes and organize it and it feels like homework. Plus it seems that in your zeal not to miss any single point you missed the spirit of what I was trying to say (aka missing the forest for the trees). And lastly you are simply reiterating points you've mentioned in previous comments which I have already read. I get the feeling you aren't really talking to me as an individual (are you simply copying and pasting from your previous writings? I'm just asking because I've seen the phrase "Some guy that Mohammad" several times already :)). Having said this (and again I say it with respect) I will do my best to answer you back. Yes, I'm a women that's astute of you to notice. Regarding the praying ritual, please reread my previous comment. I know that prayer is universal, I know about endorphins, mosques, etc. I was answering your question to say something positive about Islam and I gave you my response. Obviously if I hadn't learned to pray this way I wouldn't have discovered the pleasures of it. But having prayed in this manner I could never pick up, say, Buddhist chanting. It is an acquired taste and I tell you it's beautiful. I do not discount anyone else's worship rituals. Later on I'll tell you other positive things about Islam. I am aware of the opression in the ME, subjugation of women, situation of mosques, jihads, honor killings, etc. I believe you can know the tree by the fruit and that is why I know that that kind of Islam has major problems in it. That is why I reformed. Where you and I differ is that you believe Islam to be unreformable whereas I don't. Would you rather I left? If people like me leave Islam then who would be left? I believe that true Islam is something beautiful and that is what I'm searching for.

I never thought Islam to be the "one and only" religion. I placed it on the continuum of the Judeao-Christian-Islamic axis. That is what I assumed everyone does. (In hindsight I guess it is because I wasn't exposed to the Wahabbi's). I believed that you don't have to follow Mohammad to be Muslim, since the Qur'an says that Abraham is Muslim. By that definition anyone who worships God sincerely and does good is Muslim, and more than one path leads to God. I kept Goethe's parable about the father with three rings and three sons in my heart. "why is it that Christianity does not have such passages against the "other"?..." Have you not seen the prayers in the Psalms about smiting the enemy. It's there, though one can argue that it's not on the same scale. The major difference is that these are dead issues in Christianity and Judeaism as they are practiced today. Please give the modern, reformed Islamic movement time to develop. Remember that it is only 2 years since 911, and this is the major impetus behing the movement. I resent (I say with respect) that you called me a complicit and silent Muslim. You don't know me well enough to have made that determination--did you ask me follow-up questions to determine if in fact I am complicit and silent, no! That is another reason why I felt you are not listening to me. I am posting my opinions on moderate websites, I am telling whoever will listen what I think. So far I can tell you I am disappointed that the moderate websites don't have a hard stance against terrorism, which to me is the biggest worm in my apple. I am still more radical than the moderates. Just give us time. "What will all the silent Muslims say to their Allah on judgment day?" I told you I have a private deal with God. "People always ask Fatimah why she does not leave Islam? Perhaps part of the issue is the fear of the loss of community as well as the danger in doing so?". I have my own opinion about Fatimah, and I strongly doubt the reasons you list apply to her. Please re-read this post and some previous posts where she talks about her conversion to get clues. A couple of links to moderate Islamic sites: http://muslimwakeup.com/index.php http://www.yuksel.org/ Best, Mahsheed Posted by: Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 11:24 AM Lili and DangerMouse, It seems we are all typing at the same time and now I am already 2 posts behind. I need time to regroup and I have some chores to do. I'll get back to you later. Best, Mahsheed Posted by: Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 11:34 AM "It seems we are all typing at the same time and now I am already 2 posts behind. I need time to regroup and I have some chores to do. I'll get back to you later." Yes, I am trying to work as well. Thanks for the message, Mahsheed. I shall use "coherent" paragraphs in the future. Sorry it feels like homework. But, thinking this whole thing about Islam through is work—lots of it! No I don't "cut and paste" what I wrote before. Although, I do tend to use the same phrases in some cases. It is rather like repetitive prayer or chanting—gets the massage across. There is a rule in English essay writing: 1) Tell them what you're going to tell them. 2) Tell them. 3) Tell them what you told them. If one follows those rules the prof gives you an "A". ;-) My mission, yes I see it as a mission, since 9/11 is to tell as many people as possible the truth about Islam. And Yes, I do believe that Islam, like other religions, can be reformed. But, of course, reform must come from within. Muslims will probably (certainly) not listen to me. But, they may listen to you. I am simply here to highlight the truth about Islam to the "infidel" world. :-) Good that you are speaking out. And on that note, see the next post below. A Christmas message from our friends the Islamo-fascists. Don't forget, they "love" you too and will help all apostate Muslims get to Paradise just as quickly as they hope to blow the rest of us to Hell. Time to do some Western money grubbing. LOL ;-) Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 29, 2003 12:16 PM Here is a Christmas message from peaceful, tolerant Islam: "Threats of Terrorist Attack Continue: New Letter Surfaces Christmas Eve on Internet" "ALBUQUERQUE, NM (Talon News) -- A letter to the Bush administration from an alleged representative of al Qaeda and the Islamic Jihad Brigade Black Death Squad makes reference to a document supposedly sent to the White House last week that contained a laundry list of requirements for the government. . . Daleel Almojahid (the Jihadi's Guide") says: "Don't ever think that your 'orange alert' system will help you although you know very well that even 'severe is less than the situation you are in.' Nothing will help you but delivering our demands and as soon as possible. Your arrogance and childish acts of dictatorship are leading you directly to the cave of darkness. We have not seen a single step that reflects any logic thinking of any sort, nor clear and wise decisions, and no fast actions. You're fooling yourself and the American people, making them believe that you can defend them, when you know very well that you're totally helpless." . . . "Are you really still wondering if we have weapons of mass destruction? Why are you lying to your people, Bush? Tell them what you know, we bet you to tell them what you and the administration know. Tell them ... 'we have been losing all the wars with al Qaeda since they ever started.' Tell them that al Qaeda is simply unbeatable! Tell them that they have won the war before it has even started! You are leading your nations into total destruction, and time is slipping away from under our hands." . . . "The returning of the old borders known to you and we press on the northern borders, the release of all our prisoners in your jails whom you know and we know only. The dismantle of the so called (United Nations and its council) in an international decision." . . . "We will give you a prior few minutes notice before our blessed attack so that you will be able to watch your destruction with your own satellite, as we would be by then have passed the skies of the seventh sky to heaven and your nation to the fires of hell." Full story: http://www.gopusa.com/news/2003/december/1229_terror_threat.shtml ----- Now let me get this straight, Muslims all over the world live in abject poverty, illiteracy, ignorance and misery—yet, they have lots of money, hundreds of millions of dollars, to fund international Islamic terrorism as well as the development and deployment of WMD. Favorite words used by critical-thinking-impaired-Islamofascists, as well as ordinary Muslims, are: "Arrogant" (which Muslims certainly are, despite the fact that they have nothing to be arrogant about). "Logic" (of which they have none) and "childish" (which they are with their 7th century paradisical fantasies.) Well, if they do make a "blessed attack" with WMD then the whole world will suffer— not just the US. Which is, of course EXACTLY what the Islamo-anarchists want—TOTAL destruction of the world economy so they can take us all back to the fantastic paradise of 7th century Islam. Balkan Routes for Smuggling Prostitutes Could Offer Terrorists Backdoor Into Europe http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAEG4XVSOD.html I wonder what they will do with their laptops and cell phones not to mention all those trained kimikaze pilots? Perhaps they will go back to yodeling across valleys or sending carrier pigeons for communication? Guess you could always use donkeys and camels loaded with catapults filled with rocks and run these into your enemies' mud huts. The whole world will soon look like Bam: "Long Live Israel, Long Live America" http://www.daneshjoo.org/smccdinews/article/publish/article_4077.shtml BAM!!! Won't need those jihadi websites any longer once the "new age" of Islam is here. . . ;-) Do these Islamic-morons have any idea how many people are splitting a gut laughing at them? If they keep this up Islam and ALL its adherents who don't protest against Islamic terrorism will find themselves the pariahs of the universe! The more terror Islam threatens and commits the more the WHOLE world will recognize Islam for what it is—a misanthropic, misogynistic political, social, legal and cultural system masquerading as a religion. Perhaps we should go to a "green alert" system? Green is the color of Islam. Green WITH a scimitar could replace "red." ROTFLMAO!!!!! Careful what you wish for Islamic ummah, you might get it! Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 29, 2003 12:24 PM

Here: (You have to do a preview, and make sure your post can be read.)

December 24, 2003

Merry Christmas...if that's halal

I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone Merry Christmas, or Happy Hanukkah, or just Happy Holidays.

I am spending the holidays with my family, so I do not know how much blogging I will be able to do. I have to admit that I have never told them about me converting to Islam, or even that I have any particular interest in it. I'm too ashamed--well, maybe not ashamed, but I have no real desire to know their reactions to it, when I know how little they think of Islam. Much of it justified, I must admit, but still...it's not all bad, especially if you look at the more friendly parts as opposed to the jihad stuff.

I've read the Qur'an again and am rereading the Bible, so perhaps I will do a comparison of the two. I am always surprised by just how short the Qur'an is as opposed to the Bible, perhaps only 1/5 the length of the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures, and somewhat shorter than the New Testament. It's not quite as long as the Torah (first five books of the Bible). Also, since the Qur'an is so repetitive, the actual contents of the Qur'an, without repetition, could probably fit in the space of the Book of Psalms.

Anyway, I hope to answer more email soon, and to blog again soon!

Posted by Fatimah at 04:59 PM | Comments (220)

Comments: Merry Christmas...if that's halal

what diffrence dose it make or you if greeting christians of the xmas is halal or not!? you can fool non muslims and they may be fooled to believe you are a muslim but a real muslims will easily notice that you are not a muslim....maybe you are one of those Irani renegades....but 100% not a muslim.

anyway....greeting christians for xmas is 100% halal
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapp...?hFatwaID=94540
and merry xmas christians.Posted by saladin at December 25, 2003 09:46 AM

A joyous, safe and peaceful holiday to you and yoursPosted by e at December 25, 2003 11:56 AM

You know what I like about are Muslim friend here......she is honest about the deep flaws about Islam........and yet she has a seeking heart......and she's even reading the Bible and the Quran together.........wonderful.......

Merry ChristmasPosted by AlbertaCowboy at December 26, 2003 12:04 AM

yeah...assuming there is a single flaw about islam she is honest about it..aren't all islam enemies!?Posted by saladin at December 26, 2003 03:14 AM

You tell us, saladin. Is all Islam our enemy?Posted by Rob at December 26, 2003 07:09 AM

-rob

well....if i understood your question then the answer is..surly No...but the hypocrite who is running this site is SURLY an enemy of islamPosted by saladin at December 26, 2003 09:27 AM

Saladin,

Oh, I misunderstood your earlier post. Can you explain why you feel the person who runs this site is a hypocrite and an enemy of Islam?Posted by Rob at December 26, 2003 06:35 PM

". . . If that's halal"???

Amazing comments on this site! If I were to see as many faults as you seen in Islam (entirely true, I might add) I could never be a member of such a "religion."

Certainly the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, has its share of violence. But, compared to the Qu'ran and the hadith, where violence and oppression of the "unbeliever" are mandated and codified via sharia—there is little.

The Qu'ran is filled with hatred against anyone who is not a Muslim and incites violence against the "other." WHY would you want to believe in such a monstrous idea?

WessiePosted by Wessie at December 26, 2003 08:44 PM

If you have such huge problems with Islam, then why did you convert in the first place?Posted by a muslimah at December 26, 2003 10:36 PM

Maybe she didn't "understand" what she was getting into? Islam does appear to hide its true, intolerant face behind a veil of lies such as, "Islam is Peace." It isn't! Islam is submission to a misanthropic, misogynistic system of mind control, rather like a cult.

It appears that Fatimah is not subject to mind control. She can still think—and thinking people question instead of blindly submitting to a 7th century fairy tale that Mohammed used to build his Islamic empire. Clever guy, that Mohammed, "All for one and one for all," in the Ummah. Revenge killings in the name of Islam. Compulsory jihad for every Muslim.

Would you call that Islamic imperialism? I would!

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 26, 2003 11:20 PM

They hate us & revile us
They hate and revile the religion
They hate and revile the Prophet (Peace & Blessings Be upon him)
They hate and revile even The Name.

But I could never thank Allah enough for making me a Muslim.

This is the true religion - the old-time religion. You know that, Fatima. This the only religion that ever existed: Salih, Nuh, Musa, Isa - all were Muslims. The Qur'an zaps you into that world, that planet if you like: Planet Islam.

So what if a few so-called Muslims are stupid? They're losers - just like the kafirs who despise them.

Narrow is the road that leads to life said the Messiah. That road is the straight path. The majority are on the wrong way. Let every wo/man find a way to his/her Lord.

Peace,Posted by DaHutt at December 27, 2003 07:00 AM

How absolutely ludicrous, DaHutt!

No one "hates" Muslims. But, Muslims and Islam HATE everyone who is not Muslim. It says so right in the Qu'ran. Given what the Qu'ran says about killing infidels, the civilized world certainly won't trust Muslims until they refute those passages and have a Reformation.

EVERY major religion is "old time." They all have their value. But, unfortunately, Islam is not tolerant enough to recognize that and leave other religions in peace.

• "Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)

"So what if a few so-called Muslims are stupid? They're losers - just like the kafirs who despise them."

IF Islam EVER has a bona-fide Reformation and thereafter a renaissance, and and finally, an age of enlightenment, it is these questioning Muslims who will lead the way. The ignorant losers are those who insist on living in the 7th century with the violent, intolerant, misanthropic, misogynistic messages of the Qu'ran that were "revealed" in Medina to waring Mohammed.

Interesting how the backward Muslims societies that hate the "Great Satan" and every other "infidel" nation are not above asking for assistance from them.

Note the case of Iran's recent earthquake tragedy. Already the "true believers" have asked the infidel nations of all the world to help them. They will even "suspend the usual visa requirements." And of course, the infidels will bring the skilled "sniffer dogs"—dogs, the creatures that Islam considers unclean; dogs, the creatures that Iranian mullahs have had "arrested." http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0210/articles/021018a.htm

Yet, the Lord God made them all! Dogs, in whose eyes one can see God.

The "infidel" is always good to be used by Islam, good to pay jizyah, good to do the heavy as well as the creative work for Muslims who are too backward and lazy to do it themselves. Certainly they will also accept all the technology and medical assistance that the modern "infidel" world can provide.

Islam is always asking their Allah to "destroy the unbelievers." God works in mysterious ways. He destroyed virtually a whole 2,000 year old city. One wonders whether Iran will be grateful enough for the help during their time of need to suspend development of their atomic bomb that they want to use to destroy the Jews and other "infidel" nations.

• "We carry our beliefs on the tip of our swords." (Imam Ali's Nahaj ol-balaghah)

"Militant Islam" is an oxymoron. Islam IS militant.

"Al-Qaeda vows 'back-breaking' strike, magazine says

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/FlashNewsStory.aspx?FlashOID=13947

Twenty Thousand of the "faithful" killed in an Islamic land. One wonders whether the Muslims will get God's message?

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 27, 2003 08:16 AM

First off, I want to express my sorrow at the horrible loss of life in Iran. This is truly a tragedy of huge proportions, the magnitude of which far outweighs any political or religious differences that exist between nations and individuals.
It will be interesting, though, to see how various people in the world react to this event.

In the United States, we will temporarily put aside our differences with the government of Iran in order to offer aid and assistance in the recovery and reconstruction. That is because the people of this nation care about people elsewhere, even when they live in a country that has goals diametrically opposed to our own.

Fundamentalists of all stripes (Christian and Muslim) will, of course, assume that this earthquake was God’s will, and will act accordingly. Sunni’s will point to the death of their Shiites neighbors as proof that Allah hates them; Christian Fundamentalists of a certain type will put this forward as evidence that God hates Muslims. That’s what’s so infuriating about fundamentalist, in my view: they always seem to know what God’s thinking.

Even non-fundamentalist people of faith will vaguely speak of the earthquake as “God’s Will” but not jump to the conclusion that God wanted the people of Iran to die. The question “Why does God let people die in earthquakes?” has been asked and answered many times over the years, to no satisfying result.

Complete secularists will point to the earthquake as being an event totally unrelated to any spiritual realm, the result of tectonic shifts outside the control of god or man.

Fringe elements on the web have speculated that the earthquake was caused by the United States in sort of super-weapon test. Expect to hear this repeated again and again for many years to come.

I think it’s interesting that just last week, an earthquake on California’s coast killed only two people. If I were of a fundamentalist mind, I would think long and hard about what it means that God only kills two Americans one day, and 20,000 times that number of Muslims another day.Posted by Rob at December 27, 2003 12:30 PM

-rob

hmmm...the list is pretty long but let me start with 3 reasons.

1-i took a look around trying to find one article where she give a positive view on islam...but sadly not..this site is not made by a muslim!!

2-deny Quran divinity?? so you are not a muslim....why?? cos you believe then that prophet muhammed lied when he said its from god and a lier cann't be a prophet and no prophet then no religion.

3-she won't miss a chance to bash islam...and what the hell dose Xmas greeting has to do with the size of quran!?...and btw her comment abt quran size prove how much shallow and naive she is cos the bible revelation time span is very long in comparison with quran......and her crap about quran being repetitive make me doubt if she read or hear about quran.Posted by saladin at December 27, 2003 12:46 PM

Iran wants no help from Jews!

"Iran's arch-foe Israel offers condolences on quake"

Sat Dec 27, 7:28 AM ET

"JERUSALEM (AFP) - The Israeli government offered condolences following the devastating earthquake in Iran, saying it had "no conflict" with the Iranian people, despite its enmity with the Islamic regime.

". . .The regime in Tehran has said it would not accept any help from the "Zionist regime".

"The Islamic Republic of Iran accepts all kinds of humanitarian aid from all countries and international organizations with the exception of the Zionist regime (Israel)," Jahanbakhsh Khanjani said Saturday, quoted by the official news agency IRNA. . . "

". . .Israeli teams have solid experience in earthquake rescue operations, with workers having been despatched to help out in operations in countries including Nicaragua and Turkey. . . " http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031227/wl_mideast_afp/iran_quake_israel_031227122823

". . . If I were of a fundamentalist mind, I would think long and hard about what it means that God only kills two Americans one day, and 20,000 times that number of Muslims another day."

Now, I am not a fundamentalist, nor am I an adherent of any sort of organized religion, Rob, given that these cause so much suffering in the world. However, these things do make one wonder WHY it is that Muslims always get the short end of the stick? Just WHY are they still living in the dark ages?

You don't suppose "free will" has anything to do with it? After all, people living in a mud-hut, 2000 year old city can't have had too many modern, earthquake resistant buildings. Free will to "submit" to Islam, to be ignorant, to be backward and spear themselves in the foot— for millennia.

The mulling mullahs of Iran would rather see their people suffer and die than accept aid from the hated "Zionist entity." They will even accept aid from the "Great Satan," but not the Jews.

Ah, tolerant, petulant Islam, cutting off its nose to spite its face. The 20,000 plus who died tragically in this disaster and the thousands more who will probably die due to a lack of aid, will surely get their reward—72 white raisins in paradise.

You can lead a horse (or camel or donkey) to water—but you cannot make him drink!

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 27, 2003 12:51 PM

"1-i took a look around trying to find one article where she give a positive view on islam...but sadly not..this site is not made by a muslim!!"

Well, Salad, why not give us some positives about Islam? I can't seem to find ANYTHING positive about this so-called "religion" that seeks to control the whole world with misanthropy. Perhaps you can enlighten us?

"2-deny Quran divinity?? so you are not a muslim....why?? cos you believe then that prophet muhammed lied when he said its from god and a lier cann't be a prophet and no prophet then no religion."

That's about right. In my opinion, Mohammed invented Islam in order to solidify his Islamic empire. Very clever guy that Mohammed. The Ummah thing, "one for all and all for one," is excellent! Except of course, that Muslims all over the world hate each others guts and murder one another every day of the week.

"3-she won't miss a chance to bash islam...and what the hell dose Xmas greeting has to do with the size of quran!?...and btw her comment abt quran size prove how much shallow and naive she is cos the bible revelation time span is very long in comparison with quran......and her crap about quran being repetitive make me doubt if she read or hear about quran."

It appears to me that "bashing Islam" is the term you use when someone points out truths about Islam that Muslims find unpleasant.

Islam does have hateful, violent surahs—LOTS of them! Islam does rail against the Jews. Islam does oppress women. Mohammed says they are worth less than men. Islam does want to conquer the world and kill all the idolaters and make the rest of us dhimmis unless we submit to Islamic Imperialism. It says so right in the Qu'ran.

Now, there are plenty of Christians these days who criticize the doctrines of Christianity. Yet, no one puts a fatwa on their heads for doing so. They are not called apostates or heretics. They are called THINKERS in the modern world!

So, Saladin, Tell us something positive about Islam—please!

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 27, 2003 01:03 PM

is it another childish challenge!?..should i respond to it or should i ignore it?Posted by saladin at December 27, 2003 01:44 PM

"is it another childish challenge!?..should i respond to it or should i ignore it?"

It is not a "challenge," Salad, it is a question. I really want to know.

Speaking of childish, Saladin, . . .why do you insist on typing like a teenager, without proper capitalization and shortening your words, i.e. "ur" for "your", "i" for "I" etc.? Are you an adolescent?

So, how about it? Tell us something— actually a few things would even be better— that are positive about Islam. Tell us what Muslims have acomplished to move humanity forward in the last 1,000—no, make that 500, years.

Like I said, so far, I don't see a single thing that would make me a fan of Islam. With the possible exception of the architecture, which I, as an "unbeliever" will only be permitted to appreciate from afar.

Here is yet another un-positive thing. Jihad against Muslims and "infidels" alike. Murder by the book—the Qu'ran: "Coordinated rebel attacks in Iraq kill 13, injure at least 172"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/27/international1539EST0545.DTL

Now don't tell us about the "occupation." After all, what do you think would happen in Iraq if the US left tomorrow? Civil war between rival Muslim factions perhaps? The return of the Baa'th regime? Another Afhanistan?

I'll bet all of the above.

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 27, 2003 02:02 PM

u r p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c...but i'll answer your questions just after i finish a chess game i'm playing (honestly its more important than you and your 4th grade questions)Posted by saladin at December 27, 2003 02:29 PM

"u r p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c..."

Ah, right!

Com'on old boy, inquiring minds want to know. Tell us what good things Islam has accomplished recently. BTW— Saladin, i hope u r better @ chess than u r @ writing. ;-)

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steven Weinberg (1933 - ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999Posted by Lilith at December 27, 2003 03:21 PM

My $.02 about why Saladin & his Excellent Fundamentalist Corps despise Fatimah. She doesn't offer up all hosannahs all the time to the religion & the good Book. Besides she's a ... woman That's blasphemy to the on-off Saladin robots.

Also - you gotta wonder about people who give themselves internet nom-de-plumes like saladin & Kang the Conqueror. What are you compensating for, Saladin old chum ?Posted by Hoo-Hah at December 27, 2003 09:16 PM

This might explain the problem:

"Muslim paranoia: 'Enemies made us impotent!' "

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn26.html

". . . Last month mass hysteria apparently swept the capital city, Khartoum, after reports that foreigners were shaking hands with Sudanese men and causing their penises to disappear. One victim, a fabric merchant, told his story to the London Arabic newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi. A man from West Africa came into the shop and "shook the store owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into his body. . .

. . .Tales of the vanishing penises ran rampant round the city, spread by cell phones and text messages. . . .

. ..One of the things I'd feel humiliated about if I lived in the Arab world is that almost all the forms of expression of my anti-Westernism are themselves Western in origin. Pan-Arabism was old-school 19th century nationalism of the type that eventually unified the various German and Italian statelets. Nasserism was transplanted European socialism, Baathism a local anachronistic variant on 'tween-wars Fascist movements. The Arabs even swiped Jew hatred from the Europeans. Though there was certainly friction between Jews and Muslims before the 20th century, it took the Europeans to package a disorganized, free-lance dislike of Jews into a big-time ideology with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf and all the rest.
. . .

. . .There's something pathetic about a culture so ignorant even its pathologies have to be imported. But what do you expect? The telling detail of the vanishing penis hysteria is that it was spread by text messaging. You can own a cell phone, yet still believe that foreigners are able with a mere handshake to cause your penis to melt away. . . .

. . . A handshake-fearing guy with a cell phone is one thing; what happens when the handshake-fearers have cell phones and a suitcase nuke? It's at the intersection of apparently indestructible ancient ignorance and cheap, widely available western technology that the dark imponderables of the future lie. . .

. . . the dervishes have cell phones now. Those and some dimestore boxcutters and a couple of ATM cards were all they needed to pull off 9/11.

And there are plenty of people out there willing to help them get the cheap knock-offs of the 21st century's Maxim gun. . ."

-----

But, "Islam is Peace" and Muslims the "best of peoples" http://www.islamic-state.org/leaflets/june0503.htm

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 27, 2003 11:09 PM

I believe that Saladin does not speak/write English as his first language. Considering this, I believe his facility with the language should be off-limits for criticism.

Not to say he shouldn't be quizzed about his beliefs, though....Posted by Rob at December 28, 2003 11:25 AM

Rob, sorry, no cigar. There are lots of people whose first language is not English—yours truly included. Incorrect spelling is different than the typical adolescent Muslim shortening of words to mere letters. In my experience this is the typical jargon used by immature Muslims on line.

I am still waiting for Saladbin to tell us some positive things about Islam as he promised. Do you suppose he is still playing that chess game?

I am not an adherent of any organized religion, as previously mentioned. But, I can see many positive things in many religions. For example: Buddhism's idea that we are all connected and that there is no "god" hierarchy; Judaism's lack of dogma, that freedom to believe what you deem believable and leave the rest; Christianity's tenets of "love thy neighbor;" Shintoism's Nature reverence—and so on.

However, the more I learn about Islam the more difficulty I have to see anything at all that is positive about it. It appears to be a complete, cult like system of body and mind control of the "believer." A misanthropic and misogynistic way of life that sets itself over and above all other peoples. And if you want to no longer "believe" you are an apostate and must be killed, according to the Qu'ran.

So, I would like the "true believers" here to tell me what is so appealing about a religion that does not leave one a free moment to think for yourself and horrifically, a religion that commands to kill a member if one wants to leave?

LiliPosted by LP at December 28, 2003 12:35 PM

well...first of all thanks Rob but i believe Lili was refering to my usage of a teenager style in writing but it means nothing for me as long as english is not my first language.

and Lili..maybe you will understand in a few minutes why i paid the least and respect and attention to your SiL-L-y question :D but before i answer it i want to make a few points clear

1-Saladin was a hero by all the meanings of the word and he was a Noble muslim knight unlike your peacful christian friends who massacred arabs in the name of christ (the master of peace) but don't take my word for it..take saladin enemy words..andhow did they described Saladin.. (or you can pay humanity a service and go and ask Richrad Lion heart yourself ..just kidding :P)

2-you asked me to tell you what muslim have accomplished in the last 1,000 years or 500 years...well i got to admit i can't remember any major achievments in the last 500 years cos 612 years ago a great civilliaziton (Al Andalus) was demolished by christian barberians....sure you don't know what Al Andalus is and what dose it mean to Humanity but i don't blame you.

3-apostacy itself is not a crime which deserve death in islam....ONLY when apostacy is accompnied with betaryel or alliance with islam enemy Death is the punishment.

now to the main question "what is good about islam"...hmmm..everything!? islam come in one package and till now i couldn't find a single flaw about it...can you find some for me??..but let me try to mention a few good things..random order.

1- "Ibn `Umar passed by some youths of Quraysh who had set up a bird and were shooting at it, giving any arrows which missed to the owner of the bird. Thereupon, Ibn `Umar said, "Allah curses the one who does this. Verily, the Messenger of Allah cursed the one who takes something with a soul as a target."

2-Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is."

3-the strict order to respect and serve and obey the parents EVEN if they are non believers.

4-a sense of freedom for females ""When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud). "

5-a little bit early version of geneva convention?
The words of anyone after the Prophet do not carry independent religious authority, but the above teachings of the Prophet are clearly reflected in the practice of his immediate successor, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr gave 10 directions to Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan, one of his commanders, when dispatching him at the head of an army to the Levant:

"Do not kill a woman,

nor a child,

nor a decrepit aged person,

Do not cut down a fruit-bearing tree,

Do not destroy a dwelling,

Do not kill a sheep or camel, unless [you need to kill it] for food,

Do not set bees on fire, nor drown them,

Do not misappropriate war-booty, and

Do not be cowardly."

----------------------
the list is huge so why don't you have mercy on me and name a subject like "war,women,economy..etc"?Posted by saladin at December 28, 2003 02:23 PM

An excerpt from "The Real History of the Crusades"
By Thomas F. Madden

"With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htmPosted by Rob at December 28, 2003 03:15 PM

so rob why don't we look at crusaders reasons as THEY SAID IT rather than hearing how apologists try to find excuses for it centuries after it was crushed on the hands of Saladin and his army?
Pope Urban speech (which triggered crusades)

"But if you are hindered by love of children, parents, or of wife, remember what the Lord says in the Gospel, `He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me', 'Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.' Let none of your possessions retain you, nor solicitude for you, family affairs. For this land which you inhabit, shut in on all sides by the seas and surrounded by the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; nor does it abound in wealth; and it furnishes scarcely food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder and devour one another, that you wage war, and that very many among you perish in intestine strife.' "
"Let hatred therefore depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulcher-, wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves. That land which, as the Scripture says, `floweth with milk and honey' was given by God into the power of the children of Israel. Jerusalem is the center of the earth ; the land is fruitful above all others, like another paradise of delights. This spot the Redeemer of mankind has made illustrious by his advent, has beautified by his sojourn, has consecrated by his passion, has redeemed by his death, has glorified by his burial. "

--------------

as you see...all about Greed.Posted by saladin at December 28, 2003 03:52 PM

". . . my usage of a teenager style in writing but it means nothing for me as long as english is not my first language."

English is not my first language either, Saladbin, but I know how to use it properly and make an effort at doing so.

"and Lili..maybe you will understand in a few minutes why i paid the least and respect and attention to your SiL-L-y question :D but before i answer it i want to make a few points clear"

It appears to me that Muslims have a habit of paying little respect to others who are not Muslims, particularly if these are women. When you show some respect, I shall do the same, Saladbin! :-b

"1-Saladin was a hero by all the meanings of the word and he was a Noble muslim knight unlike your peacful christian friends who massacred arabs in the name of christ (the master of peace) but don't take my word for it..take saladin enemy words..andhow did they described Saladin.. (or you can pay humanity a service and go and ask Richrad Lion heart yourself ..just kidding :P)"

Like I said, Saladbin, when you show respect, so shall I. I KNOW who Saladin was. We study history in our schools in the West, not just religious studies. That is one of the reasons why we have moved forward while Islam has stayed backward. As to his heroism as a "Noble" Muslim "knight." I don't think so, Saladbin. Muslims don't have knights, they have warriors. Mohammed was a warrior as was Saladin. And don't forget, Islam was BORN of the sword. Mohammed could not get those Arabs in Mecca to "submit" to Islam—so—he made war on them after having fled to Medina. The First Crusade was called because Muslims, via the sword, took the Holy Land away from Jews and Christians— who, BTW, were there FIRST!!! Muslims do not have a right to the Holy Land because they robbed Jews and Christians of it. Other ME areas were also Christian before Islam came in BLOODY conquest.

"2-you asked me to tell you what muslim have accomplished in the last 1,000 years or 500 years...well i got to admit i can't remember any major achievments in the last 500 years cos 612 years ago a great civilliaziton (Al Andalus) was demolished by christian barberians....sure you don't know what Al Andalus is and what dose it mean to Humanity but i don't blame you."

Oh, right. That great "civilization" was in Spain. Spain was a Western, Christian country until the Muslims conquered it via the sword—again. So, that is the excuse, for Muslims not having accomplished ANYTHING in the last 500 years—because they were driven out of Spain, a land that did not belong to them in the first place? That's just like a Muslim, particularly an Arab, always blame their failures on others. Interesting though, that Europe forged WAY ahead after the Muslim oppressors left. Then came the Renaissance and the Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment. When will Muslims have some of those? I suggest having a real Reformation first!

"3-apostacy itself is not a crime which deserve death in islam....ONLY when apostacy is accompnied with betaryel or alliance with islam enemy Death is the punishment."

Um, that is not what it says in the Qu'ran. Leaving Islam is considered betrayal, thus—DEATH!

"now to the main question "what is good about islam"...hmmm..everything!? islam come in one package and till now i couldn't find a single flaw about it...can you find some for me??..but let me try to mention a few good things..random order."

Sure I shall find many for you:

• Islam is violent and militant.

• Islam is misanthropic

• Islam is misogynistic

• Islam treats women, HALF of the human race, with great disrespect by claiming they are less than men, using them as property.

• Islam is a mind controlling cult that will ALWAYS keep the "believers" down unless they have a Reformation to refute the violent, misanthropic, misogynistic passages of the Qu'ran.

"1- "Ibn `Umar. . . "Allah curses the one who does this. Verily, the Messenger of Allah cursed the one who takes something with a soul as a target."

Right, any child KNOWS that it is wrong to kill. The 10 Commandments tell us that as well. ALL religions have this tenet. "Thou shalt not kill," straight from the Old Testament of the Jews.

Speaking of souls. Why do Muslims hate dogs?

"2-Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is."

Right! That must be why Muslims today, the world over, treat their women as brood mares, why there are "honor" killings and rapes, why men can whore around and have 4 wives and "temporary" marriages. It says right in the Qu'ran that women are of lesser status than men. I can produce the surah for you. Mohammed also said that Hell was full of mostly women and that they are stupid.

"3-the strict order to respect and serve and obey the parents EVEN if they are non believers."

"Honor thy father and thy mother" Mohammed got that right from the Jews and the 10 Commandments.

"4-a sense of freedom for females ""When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud). "

"A sense of freedom"? LOL The problem is that women cannot do this in the REAL Islamic world. Women in Islam are prisoners of men, they always have been prisoners of men—those incompetent men, who rule the Islamic world.

"5-a little bit early version of geneva convention?

Show us WHERE in the Islamic world people have human rights? Show us, Saladbin! Over 50% of all young people want to emigrate from the Arab world. Show us where human rights exist in Islam, Saladbin—Show us!

"The words of anyone after the Prophet do not carry independent religious authority, but the above teachings of the Prophet are clearly reflected in the practice of his immediate successor, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr gave 10 directions to Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan, one of his commanders, when dispatching him at the head of an army to the Levant:

"Do not kill a woman,
nor a child,
nor a decrepit aged person,
Do not cut down a fruit-bearing tree,
Do not destroy a dwelling,
Do not kill a sheep or camel, unless [you need to kill it] for food,
Do not set bees on fire, nor drown them,

Do not misappropriate war-booty, and
Do not be cowardly."
----------------------
"the list is huge so why don't you have mercy on me and name a subject like "war,women,economy..etc"?

How about economy? Let's talk about Islamic economy and women's rights— neither of which do well in the Islamic world.

How nice. But, Muslims can kill everything and everybody and scorch the earth with "holy" jihad, and they have done it many places. Afghanistan is destroyed because Muslims have fought jihad for decades. Now they want aid from the West to rebuild. Lebanon is destroyed because of Muslim jihadis; the World Trade Center is destroyed because of Muslim suicide jihadis. The Iraqi infrastructure is being sabotaged EVERY SINGLE DAY by Muslims who KILL for Islam including other Muslims: men, women and children. Muslims kill innocents all over the world EVERY DAY—including other Muslims. Now they want aid from the West to rebuild. So, the above again is PROOF that Islam does not do what it says.

No, Saladbin, you have to do better than that. Everything you mention Mohammed copied from the Christians and the Jews. The thing that is Mohammed's OWN is Islamic jihad—WAR, murder and subjugation of the infidel those are Mohammed, the warrior's claim to fame.

You see we look at what Muslims DO and how they behave and how their societies function. And what we see is NOT good. To follow the tenets of Islam means to subjugate women, to subjugate or kill the "other" and to try to rule the world via violent Islam.

The Islamofascist-terrorists did not "hijack" Islam. They are following it to the letter!

Islam has hundreds of violent passages in the Qu'ran that supersede the more peaceful ones "dictated" earlier. But, Mohammed could get few Arabs to accept Islam with peace. So he turned to war and spread Islam via the sword. Today, Islam is trying to spread its cult via Islamic terror.

It is clear that Muslims are still living in the 7th century or at best the middle ages. WHY have they not made progress in the last 500 years? We have all been living on the same planet! Arabs didn't have "colonial" masters until about 100 years ago. So, what was the problem? Why do the 22 Arab nations, with a population about the same as that of the US (280 million) have a GDP smaller than that of Spain? Why do Arabs only translate about 300 books per year into Arabic? Many individual people in the Western world purchase about that many books per year.

No, Saladbin, you have to come up with some better reasons than the above to show us that Islam is "the best."

I will say one thing. Islam certainly appears to be the "best" at mind control of any cult since the advent of same.

LiliPosted by LP at December 28, 2003 04:09 PM

"as you see...all about Greed."
Posted by saladin at December 28, 2003 03:52 PM

Afraid not, "Saladbin. It's all about violent murderous Islam not staying where it's supposed to stay— in Arabia!

Islam started to conquer the world by the sword. It is mandated to do that in the Qu'ran. There is a whole chapter in the Qu'ran on war booty and slaves. Note that these 75 whole verses were "revealed" at Medina. AFTER warrior Mohammed was DRIVEN from Mecca and thus had to make war to have Islam accepted by the Arabs.

Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 8:

AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.068

Total Verses: 75
Revealed At: MADINA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

008.001
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe."
PICKTHAL: They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.
SHAKIR: They ask you about the windfalls. Say: The windfalls are for Allah and the Messenger. So be careful of (your duty to) Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers.

008.002
YUSUFALI: For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put (all) their trust in their Lord;
PICKTHAL: They only are the (true) believers whose hearts feel fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited unto them they increase their faith, and who trust in their Lord;
SHAKIR: Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust.

008.003
YUSUFALI: Who establish regular prayers and spend (freely) out of the gifts We have given them for sustenance:
PICKTHAL: Who establish worship and spend of that We have bestowed on them.
SHAKIR: Those who keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them.

008.004
YUSUFALI: Such in truth are the believers: they have grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness, and generous sustenance:
PICKTHAL: Those are they who are in truth believers. For them are grades (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.
SHAKIR: These are the believers in truth; they shall have from their Lord exalted grades and forgiveness and an honorable sustenance.

008.005
YUSUFALI: Just as thy Lord ordered thee out of thy house in truth, even though a party among the Believers disliked it,
PICKTHAL: Even as thy Lord caused thee (Muhammad) to go forth from thy home with the Truth, and lo! a party of the believers were averse (to it).
SHAKIR: Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse;

008.006
YUSUFALI: Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they (actually) saw it.
PICKTHAL: Disputing with thee of the Truth after it had been made manifest, as if they were being driven to death visible.
SHAKIR: They disputed with you about the truth after it had become clear, (and they went forth) as if they were being driven to death while they saw (it).

008.007
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;-
PICKTHAL: And when Allah promised you one of the two bands (of the enemy) that it should be yours, and ye longed that other than the armed one might be yours. And Allah willed that He should cause the Truth to triumph by His words, and cut the root of the disbelievers;
SHAKIR: And when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.

008.008
YUSUFALI: That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt.
PICKTHAL: That He might cause the Truth to triumph and bring vanity to naught, however much the guilty might oppose;
SHAKIR: That He may manifest the truth of what was true and show the falsehood of what was false, though the guilty disliked.

008.009
YUSUFALI: Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."
PICKTHAL: When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.
SHAKIR: When you sought aid from your Lord, so He answered you: I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another.

008.010
YUSUFALI: Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

008.011
YUSUFALI: Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.
PICKTHAL: When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby.
SHAKIR: When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

008.013
YUSUFALI: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL: That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

008.014
YUSUFALI: Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."
PICKTHAL: That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.
SHAKIR: This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.

008.015
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.

008.016
YUSUFALI: If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
PICKTHAL: Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.
SHAKIR: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.

008.017
YUSUFALI: It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).
PICKTHAL: Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.
SHAKIR: So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

008.018
YUSUFALI: That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: That (is the case); and (know) that Allah (it is) Who maketh weak the plan of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.

008.019
YUSUFALI: (O Unbelievers!) if ye prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist (from wrong), it will be best for you: if ye return (to the attack), so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they were multiplied: for verily Allah is with those who believe!
PICKTHAL: (O Qureysh!) If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance).
SHAKIR: If you demanded a judgment, the judgment has then indeed come to you; and if you desist, it will be better for you; and if you turn back (to fight), We (too) shall turn back, and your forces shall avail you nothing, though they may be many, and (know) that Allah is with the believers.

008.020
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).
SHAKIR: O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear.

008.021
YUSUFALI: Nor be like those who say, "We hear," but listen not:
PICKTHAL: Be not as those who say, we hear, and they hear not.
SHAKIR: And be not like those who said, We hear, and they did not obey.

008.022
YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.

008.023
YUSUFALI: If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: (As it is), if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined (Faith).
PICKTHAL: Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse.
SHAKIR: And if Allah had known any good in them He would have made them hear, and if He makes them hear they would turn back while they withdraw.

008.024
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and the messenger when He calleth you to that which quickeneth you, and know that Allah cometh in between the man and his own heart, and that He it is unto Whom ye will be gathered.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.

008.025
YUSUFALI: And fear tumult or oppression, which affecteth not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong: and know that Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL: And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR: And fear an affliction which may not smite those of you in particular who are unjust; and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

008.026
YUSUFALI: Call to mind when ye were a small (band), despised through the land, and afraid that men might despoil and kidnap you; But He provided a safe asylum for you, strengthened you with His aid, and gave you Good things for sustenance: that ye might be grateful.
PICKTHAL: And remember, when ye were few and reckoned feeble in the land, and were in fear lest men should extirpate you, how He gave you refuge, and strengthened you with His help, and made provision of good things for you, that haply ye might be thankful.
SHAKIR: And remember when you were few, deemed weak in the land, fearing lest people might carry you off by force, but He sheltered you and strengthened you with His aid and gave you of the good things that you may give thanks.

008.027
YUSUFALI: O ye that believe! betray not the trust of Allah and the Messenger, nor misappropriate knowingly things entrusted to you.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Betray not Allah and His messenger, nor knowingly betray your trusts.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! be not unfaithful to Allah and the Messenger, nor be unfaithful to your trusts while you know.

008.028
YUSUFALI: And know ye that your possessions and your progeny are but a trial; and that it is Allah with Whom lies your highest reward.
PICKTHAL: And know that your possessions and your children are a test, and that with Allah is immense reward.
SHAKIR: And know that your property and your children are a temptation, and that Allah is He with Whom there is a mighty reward.

008.029
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! If ye keep your duty to Allah, He will give you discrimination (between right and wrong) and will rid you of your evil thoughts and deeds, and will forgive you. Allah is of Infinite Bounty.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! If you are careful of (your duty to) Allah, He will grant you a distinction and do away with your evils and forgive you; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.

008.030
YUSUFALI: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.
SHAKIR: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

008.031
YUSUFALI: When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."
PICKTHAL: And when Our revelations are recited unto them they say: We have heard. If we wish we can speak the like of this. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old.
SHAKIR: And when Our communications are recited to them, they say: We have heard indeed; if we pleased we could say the like of it; this is nothing but the stories of the ancients.

008.032
YUSUFALI: Remember how they said: "O Allah if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous penalty."
PICKTHAL: And when they said: O Allah! If this be indeed the truth from Thee, then rain down stones on us or bring on us some painful doom!
SHAKIR: And when they said: O Allah! if this is the truth from Thee, then rain upon us stones from heaven or inflict on us a painful punishment.

008.033
YUSUFALI: But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.
PICKTHAL: But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them, nor will He punish them while they seek forgiveness.
SHAKIR: But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness.

008.034
YUSUFALI: But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
PICKTHAL: What (plea) have they that Allah should not punish them, when they debar (His servants) from the Inviolable Place of Worship, though they are not its fitting guardians. Its fitting guardians are those only who keep their duty to Allah. But most of them know not.
SHAKIR: And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know.

008.035
YUSUFALI: Their prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed."
PICKTHAL: And their worship at the (holy) House is naught but whistling and hand-clapping. Therefore (it is said unto them): Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve.
SHAKIR: And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved.

008.036
YUSUFALI: The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.

008.037
YUSUFALI: In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.
PICKTHAL: That Allah may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell. Such verily are the losers.
SHAKIR: That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.

008.038
YUSUFALI: Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
PICKTHAL: Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.

008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

008.040
YUSUFALI: If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.
PICKTHAL: And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
SHAKIR: And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper.

008.041
YUSUFALI: And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL: And know that whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the messenger and for the kinsman (who hath need) and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if ye believe in Allah and that which We revealed unto Our slave on the Day of Discrimination, the day when the two armies met. And Allah is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR: And know that whatever thing you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah has power over all things.

More on Islamic war greed here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.068Posted by LP at December 28, 2003 04:24 PM

Saladin,

Since you seem willing to post, you're the guy we're talking to. I won't expand on Lili's essay, but going back to the one about the Crusades:

I am not suggesting that there weren't plenty of warriors in the West that went to the Holy Land for purposes of loot. But your words from Pope Urban (assuming for the moment that they are correct; I haven't checked your source, which you haven't named) don't support this.

The first paragraph ("But if you are hindered by love of children, parents, or of wife...") exhortes the crusaders to not hang back because of their families or their realms. In this he quotes the Gospel to support his theme. He also says that there are too many knights than can be supported by Europe, so advises them to get out and relieve the pressure on their families.

The second paragraph (""Let hatred therefore depart from among you..") urges them to take the Holy Land back from the invaders (i.e., the Muslims who had conqured it), and goes on about the significance of Jerusalem.

Neither of these paragraphs support your conclusion "as you see...all about Greed."

As I said, there was obviously a greed factor involved here, just as there was greed factor involved when the Arab/Muslim hoards rode out of Arabia and plundered the Christian world, including fabled Spain.

But the motiviation for Urban was the threat that Islamic armies posed to Constantinople, the holiest city in Christendom at the time; and to redress the wrongs done to Christian pilgrims wishing to visit the Holy Land.

It is very facile and "sophisticated" to blame the Crusades solely on "greed;" but if the words of Pope Urban is your argument, you have failed.Posted by Rob at December 28, 2003 04:33 PM

-LP

i hate long posts but regarding chapter 8 here is a good news for you...the answer to your bogus understanding of islam and stereotyping was just one click away...go to chapter 8 page and on the left top corner there is a link "Maududi's introduction" click it and try to understand for once in your life what "out of historical context" means..here is the link if you are so (hmmm...i prefer not to say) to find it yourself.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau8.html

as for the other post..no thanks,not now..i need to sleep.

-Rob

the crusades started because of the harsh economic situtuion in europe and the solution was to invade the lands which flow with milk and honey...you can find a historical proof on that if you look at crusaders invasion of constapolis while they were supposed to invade jerusalem....all about greedPosted by saladin at December 28, 2003 04:55 PM

three points before i go to sleep

1-i respect non muslims as long as they respect my faith....it has nothing to do with your gender...although i find its funny you are a female cos my 1st impression was that you like like a truck driver (no offence...i couldn't stop it and u r really aggressive :P)

2-make it Clear NOW!!...are we discussing Islam or Muslims?? there is a big diffrence between the two..

3-i said ONE subject!!..stop being childish!!..women or islamic economy?Posted by saladin at December 28, 2003 05:07 PM

"go to chapter 8 page and on the left top corner there is a link "Maududi's introduction" click it and try to understand for once in your life what "out of historical context" means."

I have read Maududi's introduction, Saladbin. Indeed, I took it out of my post so it would not get overly long. SO WHAT! Muslims adhere to the same tenets today, revenge killings, "honor" killings, multiple wives, subjugation of women, slavery, jihadi terrorism. That is the problem, because Islam has not had a reformation that the majority of Muslims in the world today are still living in the dark ages. The Qu'ran has rules for living in the dark ages of tribalism and not in the modern, secular, democratic, developed world.

"the crusades started because of the harsh economic situtuion in europe and the solution was to invade the lands which flow with milk and honey."

Now THAT is a stretch!!! LOL The lands of the Arabs do not now, nor have they EVER, flowed with "milk and honey." Some do flow with oil, these days, but that won't last too much longer. The Arabs were poor herdsmen, Saladbin. And unless they get their act together and develop some sort of economy besides oil and international aid, they will have to go back to being camel jockeys when the oil runs out. There are a few lands in the ME that are wealthy, but the Arabs have not developed that wealth as indicated in the UN Report on Arab Development: http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/

Israel, that nation of clever people, has made the desert bloom with better things than "milk and honey" they have technology, modern technology in which they are leaders. That is because Jews are into learning and development while Arabs are as backward and as corrupt as they were during the time of Mohammed. No one's fault but their own.

The First Crusade was called because Muslims took the Holy Land, by FORCE, away from its rightful inhabitants—the Jews and the Christians. The Crusades thereafter were because of economic reasons that is true—just like today's so-called "crusade" in Iraq is about economics and freedom. But, of course, the Muslims keep shooting themselves into the foot by destroying the goose that laid the golden egg (oil infrastructure). FYI—without oil the whole world would stop—including the lands of the oil parasites, the Arabs. IF the Islamofascist-terrorists should succeed to take the whole world down, then the Muslim world would suffer much more than the civilized world. Perhaps we would have to walk or light candles if there were no more oil but the Arabs, they would starve if they could not sell oil. Which is of course, what Osama and his motley crew have in mind. Interesting that the terrorists all use modern, Western technology for their evil deeds.

What do you suppose would happen if the US left Iraq to its own devices—civil war? Muslims murdering Muslims? The return of the Baa'th party? All of the above?

"1-i respect non muslims as long as they respect my faith....it has nothing to do with your gender...although i find its funny you are a female cos my 1st impression was that you like like a truck driver (no offence...i couldn't stop it and u r really aggressive :P)"

One: No offense. ;-) I can't respect a faith that has murder of the "unbelievers" and the subjugation of women in its religious tenets. Two: I am a free, extremely feminine, Western woman who can fend for herself. My first impression of you was a typical, arrogant (with no reason to be) Muslim male who recites lies about Islam and its greatness without proving anything.

I guess seeing Muslims murder innocents every day of the week around the world tends to get one angry and feeling pretty aggressive. It really ticks me off that a bunch of ignorant, backward Islamofascists are trying to take the world back to the 7th century! If they continue, Muslims are likely to meet a lot of Western women with very aggressive stances against murderous Muslim jihadis who come to the West and try to use our freedoms against us. We don't need Muslims coming to the West insisting that we should live under 7th century sharia law! There is almost nothing a free person will not do to defend their freedom and families—especially women! If you think US soldiers are bad—don't mess with Western women, especially American women. Our women are strong, they are not weak like Muslim women who are kept prisoners and have soft bones because their bodies don't get enough sunlight due to the veil. I guarantee you that our female warriors and even our female grand-mothers are a force to be reckoned with!

"2-make it Clear NOW!!...are we discussing Islam or Muslims?? there is a big diffrence between the two.."

BOTH! What is the difference? Muslims claim the Qu'ran is the "immutable" word of their Allah and that the Qu'ran has not changed in 1400 years (which is not true). It was not even written down until decades after Mohammed's death and there was a burning of various Qur'anic versions at one point. Islam is Muslims and Muslims are Islam. Certainly there are different sects, but they all read and recite the "immutable" Qu'ran, that manual for bigotry and hatred of anyone who is not a Muslim. Whether Sunni, Salafi, Shi'ite, etc. the Qu'ran is what they recite. The Qu'ran is what the Islamic terrorist recite every time they murder innocents via jihad.

"3-i said ONE subject!!..stop being childish!!..women or islamic economy?"

Stop being DISRESPECTFUL!!! I am NOT your child-like Muslimah, Saladbin. I want to discuss BOTH women and the failing economies of Muslims—especially Arab Muslims.

So typical of a Muslim to claim someone is "childish" or "immature" if they (the Muslim) can't handle the heat from the questions. I am a highly educated, well travelled, professional Western woman who has studied Islam and has had much to do with Muslim men professionally. It is a fact that Muslim men as a group are very, very hung up about their sexuality and unsure of their masculinity. That is why they must dominate their women. Obviously, Mohammed had a BIG problem even within the historical context:

• Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surly God is high, supreme. (Surah Al-Nisa, Ayah 34)

• Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and slave-girls whom God has given you as booty; the daughters of your paternal and maternal uncles and of your paternal and maternal aunts who fled with you; and any believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet wishes to take in marriage. This privilege is yours alone, being granted to no other believer. We well know the duties We have imposed on the faithful concerning their wives and slave-girls. (Surah Al-Ahzab, Ayah 50

• Mohammed asked some women, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?" The women said, "yes," He said, "This is because of the deficiency of the woman's mind. " Vol. 3:826

• Mohammed to women: "I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you." Vol. 2:541

• "The majority of people in hell are women."

I am challenging you and other Muslims to PROVE that Islam is not an intolerant, hateful, bigoted, misanthropic, misogynistic system of mind-control that wants to take over the world as is commanded in the Qu'ran.

• Slay those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and his apostle have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay jaziah out of hand and are utterly subdued Surah Al-Tawbah (Repentence), Ayah 29, . .

• We carry our beliefs on the tip of our swords. (Imam Ali's Nahaj ol-balaghah)

Here are a few questions to you: Why are you in the West, Saladbin? Do you have allegiance to Islam first or your adopted nation? If you are not a legal resident of the West, then why are you here? Do you believe that the whole world should be ruled by Islam?

"Holy war means the conquest of all non-Moslem territories. Such a war may well be declared after the formation of an Islamic government worthy of that name, at the direction of the Iman or under his order. It will then be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put Koranic Law into power from one end of the earth to the other."

Ayatollah Khomeini

I would like you, Saladbin, to prove that Islam is compatible with modernity, democracy, secularism and pluralism as well as the rule of secular-law. I don't believe you can, because I don't believe Islam can be compatible with modernity unless there is a Reformation in Islam refuting the bigoted, hateful passages of jihad that mandate to subjugate or murder of the "unbeliever."

LiliPosted by LP at December 28, 2003 08:44 PM

Below, for your edification, Saladbin, are 5 scholarly texts of the speech made by Pope Urban II (1088-1099) as he called the First Crusade BECAUSE the Muslims had STOLEN the Holy Land from the Jews and the Christians via WAR.

Your "milk and honey" speech was taken from Robert the Monk who wrote it perhaps 25 years after the speech was made based on the Gesta version— a very short version of the speech. [Circa 1100-1101, an anonymous writer connected with Bohemund of Antioch wrote the Gesta francorum et aliorum Hierosolymytanorum; (The Deeds of the Franks) This text was used by the later writers as a source.]

It is disputed as to whether Robert the Monk was in attendance at Pope Urban II's speech. Clearly, he and the other writers of the speech, did a lot of embellishing from the Gesta version.
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Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095, Five versions of the Speech
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In 1094 or 1095, Alexios I Komnenos, the Byzantine emperor, sent to the pope, Urban II, and asked for aid from the west against the Seljuq Turks, who taken nearly all of Asia Minor from him. At the council of Clermont Urban addressed a great crowd and urged all to go to the aid of the Greeks and to recover Palestine from the rule of the Muslims. The acts of the council have not been preserved, but we have five accounts of the speech of Urban which were written by men who were present and heard him.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html

This text is part of the Internet Medieval Source Book: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history.

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Urban II: Letter of Instruction to the Crusaders, December 1095

Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing.

Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified b His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following.

Source:

August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 42-43

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BTW—The Crusading Christians were enraged that Muslims desecrated the Holy Places by defiling them with human waste. The same complaint is made today in modern Rome, where Muslims have been noted defiling Christian baptismals in the same, "time honored" manner. Journalist Oriana Fallaci describes their piss-stains on the walls of a cathedral in Florence in her book, The Rage & the Pride" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0847825043/qid%3D1046702743/sr%3D2-1/ref%3Dsr%5F2%5F1/103-8270012-0778232

. “Good Heavens!” She rages, “They take really long shots, these sons of Allah! How could they succeed in hitting so well that target protected by a balcony and more than two yards distant from their urinary apparatus?”

I personally have seen Muslims in Europe piss on church walls in full view of the populace walking by. People don't have the nerve to say anything to them because they scream "racism" and become violent.

Now, tell us Saladbin, what would happen if a Westerner defiled a mosque in such a way?

LiliPosted by LP at December 28, 2003 09:55 PM

Hi,

I've been following your thread although I haven't finished reading today's comments. Lili asks for something positive to say about Islam. I'd like to answer from my perspective as a progressive Muslim.

I find the praying ritual to be spiritually satisfying: Prostrating myself before God and concentrating on the words as I pray. Asking God to take care of my loved ones and show me the way. Asking for forgiveness for my sins. Feeling that maybe he's forgiving me. Telling God about my problems and feeling that He is listening, especially when I get a flash of insight into my problems. Reading a few verses of the Qu'ran and meditating on the meaning and sometimes doing the zekr using prayer beads. I don't get this feeling every time because I am usually distracted by every day concerns, but when it does happen it feels like a spiritual bath. And when it happens during Ramadan, it is even better.

My private time with God, that to me is the best part of Islam.Posted by Mahsheed at December 28, 2003 10:07 PM

Thanks very much, Mahsheed.

However, somehow that is not specific enough about Islam. After all, anyone who prays, whether to Allah, Vishnu, God, Jehova, etc. gets the same feelings of communing with his maker. These are certainly not exclusive to Islam.

"My private time with God, that to me is the best part of Islam."

That is the best part for me also, but I get that by talking to God while marveling at Nature or listening to glorious music or looking at inspired art or looking into the eyes of my precious dog.

How do you deal with the dark side of Islam? The hundreds of text that are filled with violence and hatred against all who are not Muslim? The specific texts that denigrate the Jews and the "infidels"—that is the WHOLE rest of the world. How do you deal with the Islamic radicals who are really following the tenets of Islam to the letter?

One of the reasons I am not a member of an organized religion is because of the hypocrisy. I am revolted by the Catholic Church and the recent pedophilia scandals. Which are certainly not new since these things have happened through the ages. I am also furious at this Pope for his ludicrous stance on women and birth control. But, Islam is at the top of the hypocrisy list for me because Islam claims so many things and then does the opposite—which is really what is in the Qu'ran. Muslims claim "Islam is Peace" when it is really submission to a god who calls on the "true believers to murder the "other" and fight until the whole world is Islamic. Fight— not love, not preach, but fight! Blood for Islam is the barbaric call that Mohammed makes time, after time, after time in the Qu'ran. Islam claims to have "given" women rights. But, it says right in the Qu'ran that they are lesser beings. Mohammed underscores that in the hadith. Nowhere in the Islamic world are women equal to men. Nowhere! And they have never been seen as equal, not even in the "idyllic" time of Mohammed, regardless of whether Aisha was a warrior on occasion or not, she was still subject to purdah. Even Muslimahs living in the West have to pray at the back of the mosque or in the basement. While their men can dress comfortably in Western clothing, pious Muslimahs are veiled to one degree or another. That is not equality!

What about all that sex with 72 virgins and rivers of non-intoxicating wine in the Muslim Paradise? Doesn't that strike you as bizarre? Especially since all those sorts of pleasures are denied the "true believer" in this life? Now, new scholarship shows that there has been an error in translation and 72 Houris (virgins) are really 72 white raisins—which actually makes sense for the poor desert lands of very little "milk and honey." Good food is always more precious than sex with virgins, even for sex obsessed Arabs. Those Arabs, BTW, take sex flights to Thailand just as the Europeans do.

How do you reconcile yourself with those things, Mahsheed? Do you simply ignore the atrocities that Muslims are committing around the world (and have committed since the inception of Islam) in the name of their Allah, as commanded by the Qu'ran?

The most positive thing I see in Islam is the physical beauty of the calligraphied Qu'ran or the grandeur of the mosques. But, the teachings horrify me!

LiliPosted by LP at December 28, 2003 11:18 PM

I've found this article to be rather telling.

Lili

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Islam is wonderful, but I can't stand the Muslims

http://www.islamfortoday.com/malik01.htm

"Why should I try to convert my non-Muslim friends when I often prefer them to the Muslims that I know? How will being Muslim change their lives for the better if they already display more of the Islamic virtues than most of the Muslims they are likely to meet?"

By British convert to Islam, Michael A. Malik.

There was a white face in the mosque. You don't see very many, so I went over and asked if he was a Muslim, “I used to be, but not any more.” he said, “I thought Islam was wonderful, but I couldn't stand the Muslims”. What could I say except “I know how you feel”;. Most converts do.

Of course one meets some special individuals in encounters with the ummah, but how is it possible that in the Muslim world they seem so few and far between? Does my being a cultural alien mean that I am inherently less capable of understanding Islam, or is it just that I don't understand my fellow Muslims? Why is it that a trip to the mosque so often leaves me closer to despair than hope? Why do I so rarely feel enlightened and uplifted after conversation with my fellow Muslims, yet so often offended by their behaviour, frustrated by their mindless approach to truth, and enraged by the inadequacy of the Islam they expect me to accept? How often I have felt like giving it all up.

Fortunately I was a Muslim for four years before going to the Muslim world and meeting those who feel that Islam belongs to them by birthright, so I early on formed a relationship with God which served to armour me against the ummah. The first time I went into a mosque in a Muslim country, the first thing to happen was that someone tried to throw me out. Now they weren’t to know that I was a Muslim but they didn't even ask. When I told them, in fact, the first thing they did ask was “Sunni or Shi’a?”, so if I'd picked the wrong one they would probably have thrown me out anyway. I thoroughly confused them when I said I didn't care, however, and eventually they let me stop and pray.

First impressions last a long time, they say, but many years after having learned by experience the best way to get in, pray, and get out without harassment, it still seems that in a strange mosque a strange face is more likely to be greeted with hostility than welcome.

The man in the editor's office was obviously a Muslim, so the brusque arrogance of his manner should not have come as a surprise. It did little, however, to incline me towards composing a careful answer, too much effort was required to remain courteous, and it seemed more like a challenge than a question. “And how many of your people have you converted?” he said, but I suspect the answer was more complex than he really wanted to hear.

“Converted to what?” is the first response. Islam presumably, yet here we have a huge assumption that we both agree on what that is. Why should I try to convert my non-Muslim friends when I often prefer them to the Muslims that I know? How will being Muslim change their lives for the better if they already display more of the Islamic virtues than most of the Muslims they are likely to meet? I share what I have found when they show Interest, but like me they often look at the Muslim world and wonder what we have in common. They find it hard to see living examples of the principles of which I speak.

I came to Islam through a search for Truth, but I found that in practice most Muslims give the truth a very low priority, and I can still be shocked by their facility for saying whatever they think suits the conversation best. Along with truth goes trustworthiness, surely an Islamic virtue, yet travelling through the Muslim world I met Muslims eager to sit down and discuss breaking an agreement not two minutes after sealing it with a pious recitation of Al Fatiha [first chapter of the Quran]. And closer to home how distasteful it is to belong to a community so notorious with regard to paying bills.

How about Mercy and Compassion - those words now repeatedly on my Muslim lips. In three years of travelling through the Muslim world, hardly a day passed without some stranger feeling he ought to instruct me in the principles of Islam. In all that time, in all these casual encounters, not only was mercy never given pride of place, but I actually don't recall it ever having been given a place at all. It is not necessary for my friends to look to the Muslim heartlands, when at home the Muslim example can be confused with “My Beautiful Launderette”.

But they see the Muslim heartlands every evening an TV, with their dictators and demagogues thick on the ground, oppressive and unjust societies, poverty and ignorance. There is no point in telling friends that Islam is a complete way of life. That it is a way to achieve joy and fulfillment in this life, hope and trust when approaching the next, and the perfect basis for a tolerant and peaceful society for all humanity. What can I answer when someone says “Show me!” - “Point to a Muslim country you can use as an example.”

My Islam sees in the prophet endless examples of forgiveness and tolerance, yet my friends see the mindless enforcement of rigid laws and eccentric punishments. I sometimes explain, but could just as well tell tales of Shari'a court corruption and injustice. My Islam insists on individual freedom, there is no compulsion, no priests are needed, and except for piety all men are equal. I kneel before no man, though I will kneel in prayer beside any, and my wealth and privilege is permitted, though charity is to be preferred, and the prophet chose to die a pauper.

My friends can understand and be drawn to such principles, but unless they can see this utopia in a more tangible form than my theories they are surely destined to remain cynical about their possible fulfillment. As long as I can't show them examples of Muslims living in a way they consider preferable to their own, I won't worry too much about their conversion. They see my Islam as a pipe dream, and who knows, perhaps they are right. The task is of course even harder when the friends concerned are women, as the clichéd platitudes of Islamic freedom and equality mean nothing when such highly visible inequities and oppression are impossible to hide.

Since I came back to this country there has been much talk in the Muslim community about an “identity crisis”. But the business successes of their family networks show that Muslims have no problem in identifying themselves with other Muslims, they just have trouble in identifying themselves with anything recognisable as Islam. In fact it seems that most Muslims would rather have as little to do with Islam as possible from the moment they are old enough to avoid it.

“Brother, let me tell you the most important thing in Islam”, said the stranger who had cornered me in a Lahore coffee bar. Far from agog, I waited to hear what it might be, though experience had taught me that it was unlikely to include any of the five pillars, truth or tolerance, or the like. “The most important thing in Islam” he said “is that your wife covers her head”, a view of Islam which I had heard often from many Muslim men. In other words the most important thing in the practice of Islam is to get your wife to do it, or your children, or your grandfather, or anybody but yourself!

Back in Britain I listened to the Muslim wails. “We are losing our children! By the time they leave school they are strangers, lost to us and to Islam! What can we do?” My usual response was often faced with dismay – “I can say what I think you should do, but it's unlikely that you will do it, because it involves changing yourselves. It involves changing the way you understand your Islam”. This is not suggesting wholesale innovation, as it might seem to imply, but quite the reverse. “It is necessary to revive that Muslim community which is buried under the debris of the manmade traditions of several generations, and which is crushed under the weight of those false laws and customs which are not remotely related to Islamic teachings, and which, in spite of all this, calls itself the ‘world of Islam’” (Qutb - Milestones). It's time to get back to the real thing - and I don't mean coca cola.

As I waited to begin my talk to the gathering of young Muslims I engaged in conversation with the group. A nice, quiet, attentive, well-mannered lot I thought. Then time to begin, but the mike wasn't working, and they waited “Testing! Testing! 123...” for while. Rather than just read numbers, it seemed more appropriate to read some Qur’an - after all, I was going to be talking about prayer. To my amazement, the first words of Fatihah seemed to fall in the room like a grenade, turning the group into a rabble. Punches flew, people rolled on the floor, conversations were attempted back and forth across the room, and Fatihah was generally taken as Time Out. If these were the ones at a Muslim conference, what on earth would the Muslim youth who weren't there have been like?

Now it's not that I'm a one for excessive displays of reverence, I see my religion more in a practical kind of way, but this was , which the Prophet called the best of the chapters of the Qur'an, and which Al-Ghazali called the key to Paradise. These words are not recited in every rakat of prayer without good reason. The outward displays of reverence, such as venerating a Qur'an, placing it high up and wrapped away, cannot do justice to the awe and wonder this surah deserves. But if a Muslim does not have a reason for this reverence which satisfies his understanding, the outward displays become hollow and easy to discard.

At the exhibition, the school kids of all ages were milling around looking at the World of Islam. As they tried to find the answers for their question sheets it was clear that Muslim kids knew little more than all the rest. No wonder our young people are losing their Islam. They have received so little to start off with. From out of the crowd around the Qur'an, one boy said to the teacher “I can read that!”, and proceeded to do so - more fluently than I could have done myself. The teacher was obviously highly impressed, but then asked the obvious question, “What does it mean?”, and the boys satisfaction turned to wry embarrassment. “I don't know”, he shrugged, and that was the end of that.

Now our young people are not stupid. Muslims have a better academic record than most groupings, as a glance at the honours board of your local school will show. The teacher's response was a common sense question, one that anyone might have expected in the situation. The embarrassment came from the common sense questions that remained unspoken, “Then why did you learn it?”, “What use is it to you?”, “Is this a skill without a purpose?” The teacher implicitly understood that these are questions you do not ask, and neither it seems do Muslims. It is as though Muslims are afraid that Islam can't stand up to common sense questions, yet Fatihah alone can satisfy whatever intellectual demands are put upon it and still remain inexhaustible. Are we passing on the key to the door of paradise, and forgetting to explain how you use it to open the lock.

If young Muslims are not shown the full richness of Islamic knowledge, we must not be surprised if they show more interest in fields where there seems further to explore. It will take some time before mosques are again centres of learning in all its aspects, places of research, experimentation and debate concerning our understanding of God and Creation. But when western educated young Muslim adults begin to search for their spiritual roots, God willing, they will uncover the means of reinvigorating the ummah, and leading them in the example of the Companions. If our Islam is not like theirs, filled with a sense of awe, wonder and excitement, can we really be doing justice to the service of Allah.

In such a situation, we will find new Muslims drawn towards the mosque. At the moment, amidst the ummah they are more likely to find Islam expressed as a cultural adjunct, where even the five pillars are avoided. But if the pillars are treated as unnecessary then what is needed to be Muslim, and if they are necessary how many Muslims are there in the ummah?

This goes to the heart of the conversation question, as we need to know what is essential for a person to be considered Muslim. Do Muslims in fact expect more from a convert than they do from those born in their cultures? How little does a westerner have to do before Muslims accept him as Muslim, and how far can he stray from their cultural norm before they consider him a disturbing intrusion and would rather that he stayed away? Is the reason there are not more converts because they would disturb the status quo?

But our effect on our surrounding society is a mirror to our behaviour and how well we represent Islam. We must live in a way that seems preferable and then at least partially satisfy the expectations of the inquisitive. Once upon a time, Islam spread like wildfire. In a few short years the Message spread to Morocco and to China. Millions welcomed the good news, and quickly shaped their lives around it.

Now Islam may be fast growing in the third world regions, but here in the West Muslims face a peculiar reaction to their invitations to join them in their faith, as almost nobody wants anything to do with it. If the message we are passing on no longer seems to have the same effect, is it not time to consider if we just have a communications problem, or whether we ourselves are abusing the message? Fortunately we still have the original - all we have to do is understand it!

http://www.islamfortoday.com/malik01.htm

Posted by Lilith at December 29, 2003 12:15 AM

Lili,

You are right that praying to God is not exclusive to Islam. There are other ways to pray or meditate or feel close to God thru nature, etc. I do not go so far as to claim that praying the Islamic way is the best or only way to pray. I just meant that for me the best part of Islam is the praying ritual. When I talk to God outside of this ritual the communication feels one-way to me and I don't feel God talking back. But when I engage in the praying ritual properly I feel that I have God's ear no matter what and that just by the fact that I am engaging in the ritual that God loves me back. For me any other form of praying feels like I might as well talk to a brick wall and I don't feel validated. Hypothetically speaking, were I to leave Islam and convert to another religion (hypothetically speaking) I would miss this form of prayer. Specifically that it is private (no middle man), portable (to use a computer term), structured, and daily.

You ask how do I reconcile the dark side of Islam?

Prior to 911 I sincerely believed what you might call the public face of Islam--i.e. that Islam is a religion of peace that embraces diversity, gives status to women, etc. I also had a personal belief that religion is like hygiene (eg taking a bath) in that it is purely personal. I believed that whenever religion is mixed with politics or even communal religion that nothing good can come of it. So I did not give priority to communal activities. I've probably attended mosque on average once a year. Whenever I read the Qur'an the parts about Jews, women etc, I just read thru them quickly because they are more in the beginning chapters to get to the good stuff. Those plus the administrative verses don't give me a spiritual buzz so I'd read it and move on. The stuff about Jews or whatever else that made me uncomfortable I just ascribed to being local to the Prophet's time (meaning that I thought those verses were specific to that time and place) or else I thought that a later revelation superceded it, or the interpretation is different. As regards the hadith and sonnat I was the same way. I ignored the misogynistic ones and favored the ones similar to the ones Saladin cites. In short, I simply never noticed the bad stuff and thought anything bad in Islam stems from cultural practices or incorrect interpretations.

Then 911 happened which along with subsequent events shocked me. But the biggest shocker was the result of 911 allowing the veil of political correctness to be lifted from the Muslim communities and then I found out how radical I am. Before I had the illusion that I was a typical Muslim. (I am still surprised by things that Fatima says, like when she says Muslims believe that non-Muslims are going to hell.) And I never saw anything wrong in Islam itself, but now I see that things are not that simple.

So in answer to how do I reconcile the atrocities today, the answer is I don't. My transformation is still ongoing, but I can tell you a little of it. I've basically decided I'm not going to sit around and wait for the much-needed reformation or renaissance which probably won't happen during my life-time. I've reformed myself and will wait for the rest of the Muslim world to catch up.

I realize that this will not be acceptable to people like Saladin, because Muslims have a horror of bed-aat (innovation). I figure that given the situation of not having any leaders or scholars, it is my right to take the stance of Martin Luther King and use my conscious as my guide. Why should I trust some ignoramous uneducated backwater Mullah or think that he has any bearing on my life? I also have a private deal with God that I will reiterate to Him on Judgement Day.

Obviously this answer is specific to myself and I don't speak for anyone else and I realize that may not satisfy you. But I have noticed that there seems to be a progressive Islam movement that you might want to look into.Posted by Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 01:19 AM

Lilith:

"Once upon a time, Islam spread like wildfire. In a few short years the Message spread to Morocco and to China. Millions welcomed the good news, and quickly shaped their lives around it."

Are you really sure it was welcomed?

Mahsheed:

Are you sure you know Islam?
I ask that because it's very easy to pick and choose what to believe, but that in no way does it make the bad things go away. Maybe you are just a spiritual being who wants to believe in something. My feeling is that organized religions are wrong. They do not even come close to knowing God, if there is one. Religion is just a way to fool ourselves that we won't die.
Because if there is another life after this one, then we don't really die do we. We are just in some place waiting for the next world, or heaven and hell. Why is it so hard to believe that we are born, and eventually will die, and that is all there is to it?
The Gods of the Abrahamic religions are very human, or have very human qualities. Like jealousy, anger, and cruelty to name a few.
How can God be jealous of us humans?
How can we burn in hell for all eternity for not believing in him?
Is that a just God?
Would a just God give very ambiguous texts and expect us to just believe?
Why is belief rather than facts or knowledge valued so much in religions?
I could go on and on but I won't.Posted by DangerMouse at December 29, 2003 08:33 AM

DangerMouse,

You could equally address these questions to the followers of any religion. There are questionable verses in the Bible (e.g., Leveticus) that no one gives a second thought to. I understand why it's harder to believe in a divinely inspired but not meant to be taken literally text than to be literal about it or not believe it at all (I mean all or nothing is easier than nuanced).

I believe the proof of God is in our hearts. Isn't it telling that people are striving so hard to believe in something that when they reject God they fill the void with something else? Like the pursuit of money, power, status, the perfect body, communism? Like the fine people at PETA? :) The need to believe in something is hardwired into us and you can argue about social Darwinism etc, but social Darwinism is also a form of religion to some, and it can't be proved one way or another (as opposed to regular evolution which is scientific fact). Atheism is a religion in itself, I've seen atheists. I've even seen how atheism can be defined as shaped by Christian beliefs; you might even categorize them as anti-Christian atheists, etc. If you look closely many atheists have replaced one set of unsupportable beliefs with another set and they don't even know it, e.g., the multiple universe theory in fashion right now which to me seems contrived solely to get around the need for God.

IMO God spoke to people at their own level. Perhaps He didn't feel that He needs to tell us stuff that we can find out for ourself, such as the world is round and other verifiable stuff. He only told us things we couldn't verify. I believe He did this to level the playing field as he didn't want a particular group of people to have an advantage of scientific technology that others didn't. He created the laws of the universe but then hid Himself from it. We know the secret to DNA yet we still can't create life, control disease, make artificial intelligence; on every front there is a glass ceiling.

And He didn't allow material advantages to make one happier. Happiness or lack thereof is obviously distributed by God, IMO, and the secret to obtaining it has never changed thru-out the ages. Otherwise the richer people would be happier, but you can see everyone has their own demons.

Anyways, these are just my own personal thoughts offered to you since you asked.Posted by Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 09:23 AM

""Once upon a time, Islam spread like wildfire. In a few short years the Message spread to Morocco and to China. Millions welcomed the good news, and quickly shaped their lives around it."

Islam spread like the plague it is because Muslims had armies. They spread Islam via WAR! Those who would not "submit" to Islam were butchered. Women and children were routinely made slaves. That is not a peaceful religion spreading it is a misanthropic Islamic empire.

---
"You are right that praying to God is not exclusive to Islam.. . I just meant that for me the best part of Islam is the praying ritual."

But, there's the rub, Mahsheed, Islam is very, very adamant about how and when and what one must pray. Indeed, in "fully" Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia, you will be forced to pray 5 times a day by being herded to the mosque by the religious police. You, as a woman (at least I believe you are a woman, given that you present none of the typical male Muslim's arrogance and nihilism on this board) are discounted. You will be locked into a shop should you not happen to get out on time when the prayer call comes.

In these "pure" Islamic countries, who are following the Qu'ran to the letter as dictated by Mohammed, there are even signs on shop windows that say, "No Women!" Reminds me of the "No blacks and dogs!" signs that used to abound in the US. Islam discriminates AGAINST women in every facet of life, even in with prayer.

"When I talk to God outside of this ritual the communication feels one-way to me and I don't feel God talking back. . . .Specifically that it is private (no middle man), portable (to use a computer term), structured, and daily."

The praying "ritual" is universal, Mahsheed. It is not exclusive to Islam. There appear to be brain receptors that release endorphins (chemicals that make one feel good) when rituals, particularly chanting, are employed for religious or meditative practices. Other religions use prayer beads, songs, chants and repetitive prayer as a way of reaching God. It always astounds me that Islam bills itself to be "the one and only" and is willing to "prove" that via subjugation, violence and murder. ALL other religions employ similar rituals. It is highly presumptuous of Islam to set itself up—in the Qu'ran—as the "one and only" religion favored by God. While Christians are asked to bring the "good news" to those who don't know of Jesus, ONLY Islam is mandated in its so-called "holy" book to bring Islam to the "unbeliever" via violence if the targeted population won't "submit". The ISSUE is the mandate to violence in that book! But, of course, we are not talking about a religion IMHO, we are talking about an Islamic empire making manual, wrapped in the guise of religion.

"You ask how do I reconcile the dark side of Islam?"

"Prior to 911 I sincerely believed what you might call the public face of Islam--i.e. that Islam is a religion of peace that embraces diversity, gives status to women, etc. . . ."

Surely you are aware that as a woman, you are not welcome in a mosque, Mahsheed? Because you bleed, especially when you do, you are Haram! Indeed, you must go to the back of that mosque or to another, separate room. That is NOT equality before God! If Muslims are so paranoid about women's derrieres up in the air in front of them leading to "impure" thoughts, they could do what Orthodox Jews do, divide the congregation down the middle—men on one side, women on the other. But, the very idea that women must be at the back of the mosque, behind a curtain or a barrier is just one of the things that makes the "status" of women in Islam a BIG LIE! If it were not for women, Mohammed and all his jihadis would not have been brought into the world.

"Whenever I read the Qur'an the parts about Jews, women etc, I just read thru them quickly because they are more in the beginning chapters to get to the good stuff."

You are aware that it is the sequence of these so-called "revelations" that is important, Mahsheed. That the latter "revealed" passages supersede the former. This is THE issue you know. The SEQUENCE of the "revelations."

"Those plus the administrative verses don't give me a spiritual buzz so I'd read it and move on. The stuff about Jews or whatever else that made me uncomfortable I just ascribed to being local to the Prophet's time (meaning that I thought those verses were specific to that time and place) or else I thought that a later revelation superceded it, or the interpretation is different. "

The Qu'ran is a poem, Mahsheed. It is not written in chronological order. Thus, you may want to look up just which passages were revealed when. Most of the violent passages revealed AFTER the "peaceful" period at Mecca, when the "prophet"could not get anywhere with that. These are superseded by the ones revealed later in Medina. Medina is where Mohammed got his armies together to do bloody battle for Islam. The Islamo-fascist terrorists quote the latter revealed passages from Medina. They are following Islam as it is supposed to be followed—to the letter!

As to the "local Prophet's time" why is it that Christianity does not have such passages against the "other"? Certainly the Old Testament has some passages against the Gentiles; however, Judaism is not known for waging wars of annihilation against non-Jews through the ages. WHY is it that ONLY Islam is so hateful against the "other"? I believe it is because Islam is not really a religion but rather a social, political and legal framework devised to build an empire—all in the guise of "religion."

I would suggest you READ the passages that make you uncomfortable for this revelation to hit home! To ignore the misanthropy and misoginy that IS Islam, is to be complicit in its crimes against humanity!

"As regards the hadith and sonnat I was the same way. I ignored the misogynistic ones and favored the ones similar to the ones Saladin cites. In short, I simply never noticed the bad stuff and thought anything bad in Islam stems from cultural practices or incorrect interpretations."

But, Islam is not permitted to be "interpreted." The Islamo-fascist terrorist are not interpreting, they are DOING what the Qu'ran commands them to do—KILL the infidel!

"Then 911 happened which along with subsequent events shocked me. . . . And I never saw anything wrong in Islam itself, but now I see that things are not that simple.

So in answer to how do I reconcile the atrocities today, the answer is I don't. . . .
"I've reformed myself and will wait for the rest of the Muslim world to catch up."

But, that sort of attitude is EXACTLY the problem, Mahsheed, the SILENCE of "reformed" or so-called "moderate" Muslims makes them COMPLICIT in the crimes of Islam against humanity. There were people the world over who were silent when the Nazis were attempting to exterminate the Jews. Don't you realize that the terrorists would kill YOU as an apostate, just the same way they would kill the rest of us as "infidels"? If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem, Mahsheed. All Muslims who keep silent are COMPLICIT in the terrorists' crimes.

"I realize that this will not be acceptable to people like Saladin, because Muslims have a horror of bed-aat (innovation). I figure that given the situation of not having any leaders or scholars, it is my right to take the stance of Martin Luther King and use my conscious as my guide. Why should I trust some ignoramous uneducated backwater Mullah or think that he has any bearing on my life? I also have a private deal with God that I will reiterate to Him on Judgement Day."

. . . seems to be a progressive Islam movement that you might want to look into."

Please give us some links about this "progressive" movement in Islam. Odd, that Islam claims not to have any "leaders or scholars" yet there are plenty of them leading nations and issuing fatwas.

"France faces fatwa over hijab ban"
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_53930.asp?MSID=7575bf9d48d64730b0d3b0f2baedac7c

Given that you live in the West, Mahsheed, I suppose you generally don't have to worry about the "backwater" mullahs. However, if you should become an activist for reform in Islam, then your life might be in danger from some crazy (male) adherent to the "immutable" doctrine of the Qu'ran, Mahsheed. And THAT is clearly the fear that Muslims have. When Muslims or even other people write and expose the truth about Islam it is a rare person, such as Salman Rushdie, who has the nerve to do it under his own name. Ibn Warraq (pseud) comes to mind with his "Why I am Not a Muslim".

People always ask Fatimah why she does not leave Islam? Perhaps part of the issue is the fear of the loss of community as well as the danger in doing so?

Clever guy that Mohammed. "All for one and one for all." Anyone who differs is toast! What a way to build a universal, world-wide empire. I always find it amusing that Muslims look backward on Islamic Imperialism with great reverence and pride while looking forward to Islamic 7th century hegemony with bizarre longing.

What will all the silent Muslims say to their Allah on judgment day? Perhaps this Allah will be pleased that Muslims committed so many atrocities against humanity; It is however, doubtful that God will.

LiliPosted by LP at December 29, 2003 10:05 AM

To all: I use caps for emphasis. I am NOT shouting. If the system permitted HTML I would use italics. ;-)
-----
" There are questionable verses in the Bible (e.g., Leveticus) that no one gives a second thought to."

Certainly there are "questionable" verses in the Bible. However, the difference is that there are not HUNDREDS of them against EVERY nation and women as there are in the Qu'ran. Also the BIGGEST difference is that other religions are not committing genocide and atrocities against the WHOLE of the human race on EVERY continent like Muslims are in the name of Islam.

BTW—The New Testament has only "love thy neighbor" sorts of passages. Jesus was billed as "The Price of Peace." Jesus never led armies in BLOODY battles against the "unbelievers." I would say that Mohammed was the Emperor of War!

"I understand why it's harder to believe in a divinely inspired but not meant to be taken literally text than to be literal about it or not believe it at all (I mean all or nothing is easier than nuanced)."

The Qu'ran is meant to be taken literally. That is another one of its problems, that "immutability" issue—the "perfect and unchangeable" word of Allah that cannot adapt to different ages. It is clear that Islam will always leave its adherents living in the dark ages unless there is a Reformation.

" when they reject God they fill the void with something else? Like the pursuit of money, power, status, the perfect body, communism?"

This is another one of those CROCKS in Islam. Muslim nations have tons of pornography, drugs, prostitution and general crime as does the rest of the world. The statistics are astounding. And we don't even have the true ones available because Islamic nations hide these. Yet, they LIE and pretend these issues don't exist because they are "Islamic" and better than the rest of humanity. Additionally, the exporting of Western luxury goods to the Islamic world is massive! Perfumes, lingerie, fancy clothing, pornography, "sexual aides"—these all go to the Islamic world. What do you think those pious Muslimahs wear under their black abayas? In Iran the girls these days are wearing as little as possible. I've seen chadors with YSL letters in DIAMONDS at the temple. Muslimahs wear tons of perfume and little bells on their ankles to "entice" those poor, undisciplined Muslim males. If you can only see a woman's eyes and the tips of her fingers then wafting perfume and the tinkle of bells around and imagined "shapely" ankle could probably drive such a man into a sexual frenzy. LOL ;-)

The bottom line is that, what is here for us to enjoy in this God-given life does not mean we cannot or are not religious as well. Most Americans, for example, consider themselves very religious and go to church. The only reason Muslims take the high-road about "Western decadence" and consumerism is because they can't seem to get their acts together enough to produce the good life and go to mosque at the same time 5 times a day. That is why the Islamic paradise is FILLED with all the DECADENCE and sexual deviance that is denied to Muslims in this life—72 raisins. LOL Sheer hypocrisy!

" the multiple universe theory in fashion right now which to me seems contrived solely to get around the need for God."

Is it anymore contrived than a hateful Allah who commands his followers to "Kill the unbelievers where you find them" and that the "true believer" gets to go to the Decadent Islamic Paradise as a reward for murder?

"IMO God spoke to people at their own level."

Whoa! That means Muslims are at a pretty low level given that most still live in the 7th century or not much further along in the middle ages. That's the problem for me. Islam is so NEGATIVE, so blaming, so unproductive.

"We know the secret to DNA yet we still can't create life, control disease, make artificial intelligence; on every front there is a glass ceiling."

It is a common problem that Muslims are very poorly educated the world over, even in the West. FYI—we can and have created "life" in the lab. At least there have been enough experiments to "give life" to microbial creatures to get a handle on how life might have evolved on our planet. We have controlled or eradicated most diseases that used to devastate humanity in previous ages. Of course, there are always new ones coming up. It would be nice if the Islamic world did its share in assisting to research and eradicate such plagues instead of always just USING the fruits of the labors of the Jews and the "infidels."
If it were not for oil, Muslims would contribute not much of anything to the world economy. They don't educate their people, they don't do research, they only take. Lots of Muslims use Western developed technology, fly patients to be treated in Western medical facilities, use Western developments in agriculture and health care, etc. So, what does that say about "superior" Islam and its way of life?

"And He didn't allow material advantages to make one happier. Happiness or lack thereof is obviously distributed by God, IMO, and the secret to obtaining it has never changed thru-out the ages. Otherwise the richer people would be happier, but you can see everyone has their own demons."

This is another CROCK! Over 50% of Arab young people want to emigrate from their miserable lives of SERIOUS want in Islamic states. We are not talking about Joe Millionaire here. We are talking about basic needs for decent shelter, clean water, enough food, healthcare and some luxuries like the occasional new clothes. All over the world people long for what we in the West have. Indeed Islam promises the "true believers" all the luxuries and decadence of this world in the next. If opulence and decadence are so bad, then why promise it in Paradise, Mahsheed?

More than anything, it is the hypocrisy and the nihilism of Islam that makes people's heads spin. God helps those who help themselves! The secret of happiness is love and work. Muslims should learn that.

Work and loving their fellow man as themselves will set them free!

LiliPosted by LP at December 29, 2003 11:00 AM

Amazing and well said LP!

Mahsheed:

Thank you for your opinions, but you said:
"The need to believe in something is hardwired into us..."

Are you sure we are not brainwashed by our parents into believing whatever it is they believed? When it comes to religions it is extremely hard to overcome what you have been taught, and told since you were born. That includes all religions.

you also said;
"Perhaps He didn't feel that He needs to tell us stuff that we can find out for ourself, such as the world is round and other verifiable stuff."

What if he did say or imply that the earth was flat? What then? I refer to the following:

// (Q. 18:86) Until when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a People. We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness."\\

There are other places in the koran where it mentions of an earth as a carpet, spread out, etc...

Also:
"Atheism is a religion in itself,..."
I am not an atheist, I consider myself agnostic.
I don't think atheism is a religion, because who do they pray to? What rituals do they do?

Also:
"If you look closely many atheists have replaced one set of unsupportable beliefs with another set and they don't even know it..."

Do you mean that you have unsupportable beliefs?

Also:
"He created the laws of the universe but then hid Himself from it."

How do you know these things?
I know we all have opinions but why do people who believe in religions always know what god wants?

And last but not least:
"Otherwise the richer people would be happier..."

They are much happier, but that does not mean there are no problems. For example a rich person has to decide between restaurants, while a poor person has to greatful for any food.

Life is full of problems that have to solved.

I thank you again for your opinions, and hope you will find true answers and not always rely on faith.Posted by DangerMouse at December 29, 2003 11:01 AM

Lili,

With all due respect can you please from now on answer me back in organized paragraphs rather than line by line? The line by line format is distracting and tedious and scatters my thoughts. Now I have to go over your points and take notes and organize it and it feels like homework. Plus it seems that in your zeal not to miss any single point you missed the spirit of what I was trying to say (aka missing the forest for the trees). And lastly you are simply reiterating points you've mentioned in previous comments which I have already read. I get the feeling you aren't really talking to me as an individual (are you simply copying and pasting from your previous writings? I'm just asking because I've seen the phrase "Some guy that Mohammad" several times already :)). Having said this (and again I say it with respect) I will do my best to answer you back.

Yes, I'm a women that's astute of you to notice.

Regarding the praying ritual, please reread my previous comment. I know that prayer is universal, I know about endorphins, mosques, etc. I was answering your question to say something positive about Islam and I gave you my response. Obviously if I hadn't learned to pray this way I wouldn't have discovered the pleasures of it. But having prayed in this manner I could never pick up, say, Buddhist chanting. It is an acquired taste and I tell you it's beautiful. I do not discount anyone else's worship rituals. Later on I'll tell you other positive things about Islam.

I am aware of the opression in the ME, subjugation of women, situation of mosques, jihads, honor killings, etc. I believe you can know the tree by the fruit and that is why I know that that kind of Islam has major problems in it. That is why I reformed. Where you and I differ is that you believe Islam to be unreformable whereas I don't. Would you rather I left? If people like me leave Islam then who would be left? I believe that true Islam is something beautiful and that is what I'm searching for.

I never thought Islam to be the "one and only" religion. I placed it on the continuum of the Judeao-Christian-Islamic axis. That is what I assumed everyone does. (In hindsight I guess it is because I wasn't exposed to the Wahabbi's). I believed that you don't have to follow Mohammad to be Muslim, since the Qur'an says that Abraham is Muslim. By that definition anyone who worships God sincerely and does good is Muslim, and more than one path leads to God. I kept Goethe's parable about the father with three rings and three sons in my heart.

"why is it that Christianity does not have such passages against the "other"?..." Have you not seen the prayers in the Psalms about smiting the enemy. It's there, though one can argue that it's not on the same scale. The major difference is that these are dead issues in Christianity and Judeaism as they are practiced today.

Please give the modern, reformed Islamic movement time to develop. Remember that it is only 2 years since 911, and this is the major impetus behing the movement. I resent (I say with respect) that you called me a complicit and silent Muslim. You don't know me well enough to have made that determination--did you ask me follow-up questions to determine if in fact I am complicit and silent, no! That is another reason why I felt you are not listening to me. I am posting my opinions on moderate websites, I am telling whoever will listen what I think. So far I can tell you I am disappointed that the moderate websites don't have a hard stance against terrorism, which to me is the biggest worm in my apple. I am still more radical than the moderates. Just give us time.

"What will all the silent Muslims say to their Allah on judgment day?" I told you I have a private deal with God.

"People always ask Fatimah why she does not leave Islam? Perhaps part of the issue is the fear of the loss of community as well as the danger in doing so?". I have my own opinion about Fatimah, and I strongly doubt the reasons you list apply to her. Please re-read this post and some previous posts where she talks about her conversion to get clues.

A couple of links to moderate Islamic sites:
http://muslimwakeup.com/index.php
http://www.yuksel.org/

Best,
MahsheedPosted by Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 11:24 AM

Lili and DangerMouse,

It seems we are all typing at the same time and now I am already 2 posts behind. I need time to regroup and I have some chores to do. I'll get back to you later.

Best,
MahsheedPosted by Mahsheed at December 29, 2003 11:34 AM

"It seems we are all typing at the same time and now I am already 2 posts behind. I need time to regroup and I have some chores to do. I'll get back to you later."

Yes, I am trying to work as well.

Thanks for the message, Mahsheed. I shall use "coherent" paragraphs in the future. Sorry it feels like homework. But, thinking this whole thing about Islam through is work—lots of it!

No I don't "cut and paste" what I wrote before. Although, I do tend to use the same phrases in some cases. It is rather like repetitive prayer or chanting—gets the massage across.

There is a rule in English essay writing: 1) Tell them what you're going to tell them. 2) Tell them. 3) Tell them what you told them. If one follows those rules the prof gives you an "A". ;-)

My mission, yes I see it as a mission, since 9/11 is to tell as many people as possible the truth about Islam. And Yes, I do believe that Islam, like other religions, can be reformed. But, of course, reform must come from within.

Muslims will probably (certainly) not listen to me. But, they may listen to you. I am simply here to highlight the truth about Islam to the "infidel" world. :-)

Good that you are speaking out. And on that note, see the next post below. A Christmas message from our friends the Islamo-fascists. Don't forget, they "love" you too and will help all apostate Muslims get to Paradise just as quickly as they hope to blow the rest of us to Hell.

Time to do some Western money grubbing. LOL ;-)

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 29, 2003 12:16 PM

Here is a Christmas message from peaceful, tolerant Islam:

"Threats of Terrorist Attack Continue: New Letter Surfaces Christmas Eve on Internet"

"ALBUQUERQUE, NM (Talon News) -- A letter to the Bush administration from an alleged representative of al Qaeda and the Islamic Jihad Brigade Black Death Squad makes reference to a document supposedly sent to the White House last week that contained a laundry list of requirements for the government. . .

Daleel Almojahid (the Jihadi's Guide") says:

"Don't ever think that your 'orange alert' system will help you although you know very well that even 'severe is less than the situation you are in.' Nothing will help you but delivering our demands and as soon as possible. Your arrogance and childish acts of dictatorship are leading you directly to the cave of darkness. We have not seen a single step that reflects any logic thinking of any sort, nor clear and wise decisions, and no fast actions. You're fooling yourself and the American people, making them believe that you can defend them, when you know very well that you're totally helpless." . . .

"Are you really still wondering if we have weapons of mass destruction? Why are you lying to your people, Bush? Tell them what you know, we bet you to tell them what you and the administration know. Tell them ... 'we have been losing all the wars with al Qaeda since they ever started.' Tell them that al Qaeda is simply unbeatable! Tell them that they have won the war before it has even started! You are leading your nations into total destruction, and time is slipping away from under our hands." . . .

"The returning of the old borders known to you and we press on the northern borders, the release of all our prisoners in your jails whom you know and we know only. The dismantle of the so called (United Nations and its council) in an international decision." . . .

"We will give you a prior few minutes notice before our blessed attack so that you will be able to watch your destruction with your own satellite, as we would be by then have passed the skies of the seventh sky to heaven and your nation to the fires of hell."

Full story: http://www.gopusa.com/news/2003/december/1229_terror_threat.shtml
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Now let me get this straight, Muslims all over the world live in abject poverty, illiteracy, ignorance and misery—yet, they have lots of money, hundreds of millions of dollars, to fund international Islamic terrorism as well as the development and deployment of WMD.

Favorite words used by critical-thinking-impaired-Islamofascists, as well as ordinary Muslims, are: "Arrogant" (which Muslims certainly are, despite the fact that they have nothing to be arrogant about). "Logic" (of which they have none) and "childish" (which they are with their 7th century paradisical fantasies.)

Well, if they do make a "blessed attack" with WMD then the whole world will suffer— not just the US. Which is, of course EXACTLY what the Islamo-anarchists want—TOTAL destruction of the world economy so they can take us all back to the fantastic paradise of 7th century Islam.

Balkan Routes for Smuggling Prostitutes Could Offer Terrorists Backdoor Into Europe http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAEG4XVSOD.html

I wonder what they will do with their laptops and cell phones not to mention all those trained kimikaze pilots? Perhaps they will go back to yodeling across valleys or sending carrier pigeons for communication? Guess you could always use donkeys and camels loaded with catapults filled with rocks and run these into your enemies' mud huts. The whole world will soon look like Bam:

"Long Live Israel, Long Live America" http://www.daneshjoo.org/smccdinews/article/publish/article_4077.shtml

BAM!!! Won't need those jihadi websites any longer once the "new age" of Islam is here. . . ;-)

Do these Islamic-morons have any idea how many people are splitting a gut laughing at them? If they keep this up Islam and ALL its adherents who don't protest against Islamic terrorism will find themselves the pariahs of the universe!

The more terror Islam threatens and commits the more the WHOLE world will recognize Islam for what it is—a misanthropic, misogynistic political, social, legal and cultural system masquerading as a religion.

Perhaps we should go to a "green alert" system? Green is the color of Islam. Green WITH a scimitar could replace "red." ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Careful what you wish for Islamic ummah, you might get it!

LiliPosted by Lilith at December 29, 2003 12:24 PM

Hank

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