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To: mark502inf

Well, seems that you're real man of the action. If it's not military secret, what's your rank?

Yes, I agree with your opinion on alliances, but why don't you say then "US has Albania for it's ally because that way is better to secure US interests in Balkans, and not because Albanians are/were oppressed by Serbs"? We can conclude that all lies and propaganda against my nation is product of Clinton's administration view that it's better for US to have Serbs as bad guys and Croatian neo-fascists, bosnian islamists, and albanian chauvinists as good guys. And this sounds logical. Why? Because - Yugoslavia, as it was, was first state in row to enter EU. Far infront of today's new EU members from eastern Europe. Hungary, Czech rep. Poland, they were far behind us. So, to secure peace and economic and political transition, US and EU just had to say to Slovenes and Croats - "If you wanna get out from Yugoslavia, do it legally. Otherwise, we won't protect you!" US and EU could have said to Albanians, "if you don't want to go out and help serbian opposition overthrow Milosevic, we'll do nothing to protect you." But here you're right. Albanians wanted independence all the time. They had Kosovo de facto republic equal if not dominant over Serbia during communist Yugoslavia, still they were not satisfied with it. Second, yes, they were very pleased to play the role of oppressed minority, having Milosevic and Serbs as bad guys already.

So, bottom line, Germany wanted destruction of Yugoslavia, thus history repeated. German alliance with Croats, Slovenes and Bosnian muslims. US granted that, out of fear that strategic partnership with Germany could be lost. Thus, Albanian cause was much easier to be achieved, once Serbs became bad guys, and Albanian contacts with Clinton's administration became strong and influential.

Ah, c mon, I guess you know that Bulgarians refused to obey the agreement on Russian arbitration regarding neutral zone in Macedonia. Thus, that problem had to be settled by arms. I'm speaking about 1913. balkan war.

I guess I didn't understand you right, you say that US supported the FARC/ELN communists in Colombia? You say US didn't know before Noriega's arrest that he was narko-lord? Anti-communist factions in central america were supported by US, and they were very close to narko-dealers.

The point is, if you're standing shoulder to shoulder with such people, your adversaries have to be much much worse people themselves, so you could explain why you have to cooperate with bad against the worse. But if your adversaries, let's say Serbs, are just fighting secessionism in their own country, how can you explain cooperation with such people as albanian mafia? I guess nobody sane her could deny KLA is controlled by albanian mafia. So, some other, deeper causes had to force you to work with them against us. Would it be albanian lobby? Maybe. But I guess it can't explain everything. I guess the game is far deeper, and we (serbs) were very short-sided to see it coming. I still can't believe we're the bad guys, not with the knowledge I have about what was going on here.

Hah, yeah, Albanians are maybe not so extreme islamists (unless they have to show as such in order to get money from Bin Ladin, Saudi Arabia, or Iran), but did you try to speak serbian in the streets of Pristina, or anywhere among Albanians? No muslim, croat or albanian was killed in Belgrade so far. Albanians got their Kosovo, but still they can't tolerate serbian langauge, not to mention serbs in Kosovo. Compare that with years of Serbian rule on Kosovo.

If you say you understood what Patriarch Pavle had gone trough in Kosovo, do you understand what that implies? Even during their absolute rule over Kosovo, from 1968 (maybe even 1966), up to 1988. albanians had everything theirs. Faculties, schools, religion, administration, police, yet they didn't tolerate Serbs. Their crimes after 1999 over serbs are not revenge, but continuation of former policy, interrupted by Milosevic.

You take albanian claims on their Illyric heritage like it's something proven. Like, I have arguments, and you have dreams, but since both of us claim property, we're in the same position. No can do. But ok. Just few points.

1 - Kosovo wasn't Illyrian, but Dardanian, and Dardan's were Thracians. Thracians weren't Illyrians
2 - Illyrians lived in Montenegro, Bosnia, Parts of Croatia. Are Albanians going to claim these lands also? if not, how can they use the same argument for Kosovo?
3 - There are no historical arguments about Albanians before 11th century.
4 - There are no records about Slavic, or Serbian, ethnic cleansing of pre-slavic population from territories they seized upon their arrival in the balkans. On the contrary, they were invited by Byzantinean emperor Heraclius (spel?) to settle in the region behind Thessalonica (macedonia), where there is still today locality of Srbitza, or Serbitza. But these Serbs moved back toward north and then scattered to the Adriatic's. What's more likely is that they mixed a lot with pre-slavic population, so called Vlachs. But Slavic element was stronger.
5 - Albanians started coming to Kosovo during ottoman rule, as part of ottoman (turkish) irregular units, para-militars, so called "bashibozluks". They plundered serbian villages, oppressed and killed Serbs. because of serbian alliance with austrians in the end of 17th century, and rebellion against turkish invaders, serbs had to flee Kosovo. But big part didn't leave. So, the ethnic structure was changing, from predominantly serbian to predominantly albanian. After WW1 there was about 50-50. Imagine, during serbian rule of terror after 1912, albanian population in Kosovo was growing! :-) Not to mention WW2 atrocities over Serbs and expulsion. Not to mention communist rule, especially from Rankovic's fall, when Albanians were able to do what was their will. So they did!

Now, after decades and centuries of oppression and ethnic cleansing and yes, genocide! over Serbs in Kosovo, you or anyone else, comes and has face to speak about Albanian rights on Kosovo, supported by incredible "theory" of Illyrian ancestry, created in Vienna in the end of 19th century?

It's not just, it's not right. They had all the power in, solely de jure Serbia, and they couldn't live with it. They got used during turkish rule to be masters and ruling elite, so once they were forced to be equal citizens, they started whining about oppression. It's not just, it's not right.

You can dismiss all borders in the balkans, but if you people can't live together there will be strong, the strongest borders again, just invisible. If Albanian would come to Kurshumlija to live, local Serbs would burn his house and demolish his shop. They did learn something out of destiny of their Kosovo cousins - never allow Albanian to be your neighbor. Otherwise your children will have to run away.

Yes, haha, there will be lot's of ping-pong with Kosovo, but basketball is realy a serbian game, so once we get the chance, we'll slam-dunk it for good. For good.

Jane,

greater Albania was in interest of Nazi Germany and Italy, greater Albania is factor of destabilization of Balkans. That's why if you want to have your troops in the Balkans for some other reason, you just create instability. Instability is created best by supporting albanians. Then Serbs are scared, as well as macedonians, and greeks become more sensitive. Scared macedonians bring Bulgaria in the game. If Montenegrins are in bad position, muslims from Montenegro (and Serbia) look for their Bosnian muslim brothers. That brings bosnian serbs in the game, but also Croatia (whenever there's some turbulence in Bosnia, it's imperative for croatia to watch out, ready to intervene). It's all mixed, and you need dominant foreign power to keep it calm.


33 posted on 05/29/2004 3:08:29 AM PDT by captain albala (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem!)
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To: captain albala
why don't you say then "US has Albania for it's ally because that way is better to secure US interests in Balkans, and not because Albanians are/were oppressed by Serbs"?

The US and Albania are allies based on both mutual interests and on what each country can provide for the other. The United States wants diplomatic and military support, the Albanians provide a reliable vote for the USA in the UN as well as in public diplomacy such as the 2003 Vilnius letter. They have opened up their training areas for US forces to conduct large-scale training exercises that are no longer permitted or possible in Germany and Italy and, in some cases, even in the USA. They provide troops for SFOR, Iraq, and Afghanistan as well as air, land, and sea rights of passage for US and NATO forces. In turn, the USA provides Albania with economic assistance, military aid, and serves as a guarantor of the security of their borders from neighboring states. Both countries want stability in Albania. The Albanian government for obvious reasons and the USA because failed states (think Afghanistan & Somalia) provide convenient bases or havens for both criminals and terrorists. And etc as we talked about previously. As for Serb oppression of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo prior to the 99 conflict, although Albanians are grateful for what the USA and NATO did to stop Milosevic, that episode is not and was not what defines the US-Albanian community of interests.

We can conclude that all lies and propaganda against my nation is product of Clinton's administration view that it's better for US to have Serbs as bad guys and Croatian neo-fascists, bosnian islamists, and albanian chauvinists as good guys.

It is better for the US to have all good guys in the Balkans and thus have peace and stability. American policy toward the Balkans has been consistent in that regard through the last three presidents and five Secretaries of State; think of the first President Bush's 1991 "Christmas Warning" to Milosevic on Kosovo and the current administration's continued commitments to SFOR and KFOR as well as the integration of former Yugo republics into structures such as Partnership for Peace, NATO, the EU, the Adriatic Charter, etc. You ignore the very real role that Milosevic and the policies under his regime played in making Serbs the "bad guys¨. Four wars, hundreds of thousand dead, a couple million refugees, Yugoslavia split up, Serbia's economy and reputation ruined all would have seemed impossible twenty years ago. It took a special kind of guy to screw things up that phenomenally and Slobo was that guy. Milosevic was the one constant in the problems of the former Yugoslavia; not the USA, not NATO, not Slovenes or Croats or Macedonians or Albanians or Bosniaks; not even Ruder-Finn or MPRI! Djindjic was a great step forward and Kostunica is OK, but he is hindered from making a clean break from the past by domestic Serbian politics. I suspect you are aware that when your Foreign Minister recently commented on Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo in 1999, this recognition of the obvious was so controversial in Serbia that he was put up for a "no confidence¨ measure in parliament that he survived by only one vote. As long as the culture of denial continues, Serbian leaders will have difficulty in gaining the kind of international credibility they need to get a satisfactory solution for the final status of Kosovo, for getting the ICTY out of the business of trying Serb war criminals instead of letting Belgrade take care of their own business, and gaining entrance to international structures such as NATO and the EU. Guaranteed that Colin Powell and Javier Solana and Tony Blair all know what took place in Kosovo in 1998-99. They are not about to turn Kosovo back over to direct Serbian rule if Serb leaders are still denying the crimes and atrocities that precipitated NATO intervention to remove Serb rule.

Albanians wanted independence all the time.

And they still do. Before 98, some sort of compromise involving autonomy may have been feasible, but not now. Any solution in the near future must be either independence or some type of cantonisation.

So, bottom line, Germany wanted destruction of Yugoslavia, thus history repeated. German alliance with Croats, Slovenes and Bosnian muslims. US granted that, out of fear that strategic partnership with Germany could be lost.

I think you are stretching things here. The US-German strategic relationship was in no way hinged on Germany's Yugoslavia policy. As for how "Germany wanted destruction of Yugoslavia", there was a school of thought at that time that diplomatic assistance and recognition of the constituent Yugoslav Republics that wanted independence would serve peace and stability. The idea was that those republics would fight for independence if they were not able to gain it peacefully. I think it is unfair to interpret Germany's actions now without reference to the concept to which they adhered to then.

Ah, c mon, I guess you know that Bulgarians refused to obey the agreement on Russian arbitration regarding neutral zone in Macedonia. Thus, that problem had to be settled by arms. I'm speaking about 1913. balkan war.

The point was on national interests and how that affects allies and alliances. Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria were allies in the 1912 Balkan War in order to free their territories from the old Ottoman Empire. All three had conflicting claims to Macedonia, but those claims were subsumed by the common interest in fighting the Turks. With the Turks defeated, the reason for the alliance disappeared and the competing claims in Macedonia became the dominant interest. As a result, the former allies became enemies and fought the 2d Balkan War amongst themselves only months later. It is a fact that Bulgaria started it!

you say that US supported the FARC/ELN communists in Colombia?

The opposite.

You say US didn't know before Noriega's arrest that he was narko-lord?

Sure, that is why the USA indicted Noriega almost two years before the December 1989 invasion and his arrest.

Anti-communist factions in central america were supported by US, and they were very close to narko-dealers.

The primary anti-communist fighters in Central America were the Nicaraguan Contras and the El Salvadoran government. The former had some rumors and allegations of drug-dealing that were treated as fact by the same people that believe the CIA introduced crack cocaine into the USA and that Ronald Reagan invented AIDS to kill Africans. I do not know of any involvement by the latter, but even if there were, the greatest narco-traffickers in Latin America are our enemies, the communist guerillas of Colombia.

So, some other, deeper causes had to force you to work with them against us. Would it be albanian lobby? Maybe. But I guess it can't explain everything. I guess the game is far deeper, and we (serbs) were very short-sided to see it coming.

U.S. and NATO Intervention in Kosovo was brought on by fear that the conflict and resultant humanitarian catastrophe would spread and destabilize other areas in the Balkans region. Here is a good synopsis by Ambassador A. Peter Burleigh of the United States Mission to the United Nations in a statement to the Security Council on the first day of the NATO attack:

The current situation in Kosovo is of grave concern to all of us. We and our allies have begun military action only with the greatest reluctance. But we believe that such action is necessary to respond to Belgrade's brutal persecution of Kosovar Albanians, violations of international law, excessive and indiscriminate use of force, refusal to negotiate to resolve the issue peacefully, and recent military buildup in Kosovo, all of which foreshadow a humanitarian catastrophe of immense proportions.

We have begun today's action to avert this humanitarian catastrophe and to deter further aggression and repression in Kosovo. Serb forces numbering 40,000 are now in action in and around Kosovo. 30,000 Kosovars have fled their homes just since March 19. As a result of Serb action in the last five weeks, there are more than 60,000 new refugees and displaced persons. The total number of displaced persons is approaching a quarter of a million.

The continuing offensive by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is generating refugees and creating pressure on neighboring countries, threatening the stability of the region. Repressive Serb action in Kosovo has already resulted in cross-border activity in Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Recent actions by Belgrade also constitute a threat to the safety of international observers and humanitarian workers in Kosovo.

Security Council resolutions 1199 and 1203 recognized that the situation in Kosovo constitutes a threat to peace and security in the region and invoked Chapter VII of the Charter. In Security Council resolution 1199, the Security Council demanded that Serbian forces take immediate steps to improve the humanitarian situation and avert the impending humanitarian catastrophe.

In regard to the contention that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians, the point is that the Albanians believe it and therefore they can counter Serb claims to Kosovo based on ancient historical presence. Personally, I think basing current policy on who lived where hundreds or thousands of years ago is ridiculous, but in a region where 1389 seems like last year, it still has an impact.

Yes, haha, there will be lot's of ping-pong with Kosovo, but basketball is realy a serbian game, so once we get the chance, we'll slam-dunk it for good. For good.

Well as a life-long Detroit Pistons fan, I just wish your boy Darko would start doing some slam-dunking on the real basketball court and earning those millions we are paying him!


34 posted on 05/30/2004 7:21:07 AM PDT by mark502inf
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