Posted on 05/30/2004 12:16:34 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis
Moreover, the Koran is a beautiful document. Claiming that the Islamofascists are the true bearers of Islam is like claiming that David Koresh or Jim Jones represented true Christianity.
The problem is Islamic civilization's failure to adjust to modernity, which is the product of historical and cultural processes, not its theology as such. If you mis-diagnose a disease, you will not know the appropriate cure. And this war is too important to base strategy on silly stereotypes.
Saying they had ties to hitler is like saying a Palestinian Christian has ties to hitler because he is selling cucumbers and paying taxes to the PLO.
I dont think FDR would have suffered a Bush family with ties to Hitler during the war. I think these were cutoff once it was officialy known that hitler was a scumbags.
The Bush never rooted for Hitler against America or freedom, let alone begged to them in any way.
But of course scumbags like to mess and to claim they beg less than the Bushs would do.
The same argument can be made for the Apostles and the New Testament. Likewise, the books of the Old Testament are not written by God Himself.
In the old testament, there are multiple prophets, messengers, and historical/mythological authority figures. In the New Testament, there is Jesus, the four cannonic Gospels of four separate disciples, various epistles from various authors, etc... In the Koran and Sunnah, there is ONLY Mohammed. HUGE difference, bud.
Moreover, while both the Old and New Testaments contain unpleasant stuff, they contain NOT ONE equivalent to the ongoing present-tense commandments from On High to temporally fight, slaughter, murder, subjugate, deceive, subvert, and enslave non-believers to be found in the hundredfold throughout all Islamic Writ.
Islam and Judeo-Christianity are NOT equatable.
DEAL WITH IT.
Moreover, the Koran is a beautiful document.
Irrelevant. The denotation is ugly, vicious, violent, implacable, and immutable. That the poetry in which it is couched is pleasing to the aesthetics of some people is utterly irrelevant to the survival of civilization from the cancer that poetry bears.
DEAL WITH IT.
Claiming that the Islamofascists are the true bearers of Islam is like claiming that David Koresh or Jim Jones represented true Christianity.
You miss the point. MOHAMMED HIMSELF sets himself up as both the original islamofascist AND sole true torchbearer of Islam. The central credo of Islam is as follows:
"There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed IS his prophet."
Present tense, ongoing, eternal, infallible, EXCLUSIVE, and ABSOLUTE.
Throughout the Koran and Sunnah are requirements for all who call themselves Muslim to submit to EVERYTHING Mohammed says, to emulate him in ALL ways.
Islamofascists ARE the only "true" Muslims. DEAL WITH IT.
The problem is Islamic civilization's failure to adjust to modernity, which is the product of historical and cultural processes, not its theology as such.
See above: the single greatest factor which has stymied their civilization's advancement out of the seventh century is the THEOLOGICAL PRECEPT that Mohammed is INFALLIBLE IN ALL THINGS, including his many societal pronouncements.
DEAL WITH IT.
And this war is too important to base strategy on silly stereotypes
And what if the "stereotypes" bear a significant resemblance to reality, hrmn?
They DO.
DEAL WITH IT.
Once you deal with all of the above, you might be able to see what is going on with eyes that have shed the scales leftist uberegalitarian nonsense have placed upon them.
At the moment, however, you are blind.
DEAL WITH IT.
Rest assured, if you do not, Islam's true sons WILL ASSUREDLY DEAL WITH YOU.
Yikes. Muhammad was not a holy man. Just read the Haddiths yourself and you will get sick to your stomach if you are a decent human being.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/
Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”
Tabari VIII:179 “Abdallah bin Sa’d fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, ‘By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!’ One of the Ansar said, ‘Why didn’t you give me a sign?’ Allah’s Apostle replied, ‘A prophet does not kill by pointing.’”
Tabari VII:101 “The Khazraj asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam Huqayq, who was in Khaybar. He granted this.”
Tabari VII:112/Ishaq:372 “When a blind Jew became aware of the presence of the Messenger and the Muslims he rose and threw dust in their faces, saying, ‘Even if you are a prophet, I will not allow you into my garden!’ I was told that he took a handful of dirt and said, ‘If only I knew that I would not hit anyone else, Muhammad, I would throw it in your face.’ Sa’d rushed in and hit him on the head with his bow and split the Jew’s head open
It goes on and on and on ad nauseum.
Here are more spiritually inspirational verses:
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Tabari VII:133/Ishaq:387 “When Muhammad saw Hamzah he said, ‘If Allah gives me victory over the Quraysh at any time, I shall mutilate thirty of their men!’ When the Muslims saw the rage of the Prophet they said, ‘By Allah, if we are victorious over them, we shall mutilate them in a way which no Arab has ever mutilated anybody.”
Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”
ad nauseam et ad infinitum.
Thank you. I was going to post that, but you beat me to it. You are 100% right. I do not see a whole lot of difference between naziism, communism, and islamism.
The Bible is full of this stuff, and plenty of Crusades, Inquisitions and pogroms remind us that brutality and murder in the name of Christianity is in no short supply. Only willful ignorance could hold otherwise. Yet, Christianity is not a bloodthirsty religion. Allow me to suggest that the same is true of Islam. Selective quote picking from the Koran is pretty unconvincing in light of this reality.
1). Mohammed is bad and the Apostles are good because the Apostles out-number Mohammed. Ergo, if two or more people claim to be describing divine revelation, it must be true.
2). A document which contains exhortations to kill is bad, unless it is the Bible.
3). Mohammed is bad because he is Allah's prophet. Jesus is also considered to be a prophet to Islam, but one must ignore that fact and blame everything on Mohammed.
4). The failure of Islamic civilization comes from Mohammed's pronouncements in the 7th Century, A.D., even though Islamic civilization was one of the world's most progressive and modern until the 16th Century, A.D. It just took 900 years for the Muslims to actually obey Mohammed.
5). Stereotypes of Muslims are just fine, especially in the context of formulating national security policy (thinking takes effort, after all, so why waste energy?). Does your rule of stereotypes also apply to Jews and African-Americans?
6). Mohammed claiming infallibility is bad. The infallibility of the Pope is good.
7). People who have views somewhat different than yours are "blind".
Gee, I'm convinced.
You are changing the subject from Muhammad's character to a criticism of Christianity. Islam is Muhammad; without him and what he was, there is no Islam.
Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus and other holy men preached love and tolerance. Those who profess to believe in them have no excuse for killing and plunder. However:
Ishaq:510 “We ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
There are plenty of juicy bits on plunder in the Old Testament. Mohammed also frequently spoke of the need for love. Moreover, your argument is moot because Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam. The Muslims simply do not consider Jesus to have been the son of God.
Again you are changing the subject to Christianity. It should be obvious from reading the life of person that religion is named after that he would not condone such things.
From Apostates of Islam:
"One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their “right hand possessions” (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified."
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/main.htm
One of those nations fought a loosing insurgency(even equipped with Nazi Aircraft) with Nazi backing during WWII with the Brits. Care to guess which country it was?
It was Iraq.
Sure, the ones who designed the spectacles would have continued, but when the moment of the mesmerizing 3-hour speech came, it would have been lame. Besides that, after 50 years the Reich would have lost its sparkle and gleam anyway when economic reality bit them just like it bit the USSR. The Reich had everything, provided all answers, but it lacked the one thing: God. It was doomed.
You are also ignoring the obvious fact that Christianity went through some bloody and repressive phases, but reformed itself. Why can't Islam do the same?
You are correct that the German special forces (Brandenburgers) incited a revolt against the British. However, there were no German combat aircraft anywhere near Iraq. It was Britain's total air superiority that made their victory possible ( see F. Kurowski's "The Brandenburgers" for more on the operation).
There are still those, (not just Nazis) , who believe this. Some of them are right here on FR in fact.
The Nazi's and Islam have a common hatred for the Jews that is for sure.
Islam can't reform itself because Muhammad was not a holy man, whereas Jesus was. It is like trying to reform Charles Manson's cult.
Since I am not Christian, I can only speculate on your thesis. My understanding is that Jesus brought a new covenant of love and compassion to replace the old covenant of an eye for an eye etc.
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