Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Details Sketchy On How Tank Was Breached
The Columbus Dispatch | June 3, 2004 | By Tim Doulin

Posted on 06/07/2004 9:36:51 AM PDT by mark502inf

The M1A1 Abrams tank to which Pfc. Nicholaus E. Zimmer was assigned was designed with the purpose of preserving the lives of crew members.

But Zimmer was killed when the tank came under attack Sunday from rocket-propelled grenades, which should not have been able to penetrate the tank's armor.

Details of the attack and how Zimmer, of southern Delaware County, died were sketchy yesterday.

"We know it was RPGs and he was assigned to a tank, and the tank came under attack," said Cathy Gramling, a Defense Department spokeswoman.

"But we don't know the circumstances."

Zimmer could have been struck if his body had been exposed, Gramling said. He also could have been inside the tank and died from a "percussion" injury when the grenade round hit the tank.

Zimmer's family said they were told by the Army that Zimmer likely was inside the tank when it was struck and that two others were injured.

"The No. 1 goal in designing that tank in the 1970s was survivability of the crew," said George F. Hofmann, military historian at the University of Cincinnati.

Hofmann wouldn't speculate on what caused Zimmer's death. He said an RPG7, which is typically used by Iraqi insurgents, is unlikely to penetrate an Abrams.

"If there was a penetration, then the terrorists we are dealing with have introduced a much more powerful RPG," Hofmann said. "But I am just speculating."

The tank's armor is composed of depleted uranium, which has a density 2 1/2 times greater than steel.

"It is supposed to even be able to repel any type of round that comes from another tank," said Hofmann, who served as an Army instructor and cadre in the Special Training Regiment at the U.S. Armor Training Center in Fort Knox, Ky.

He said the tank is "compartmentalized."

"If a round by chance penetrates, you have compartments that protect other crew members."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: armor; army; iraq; m1; m1a1abrams; oif; tank
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-86 next last
To: Jeff Head
Hyperveocity can also be achieved through the use of rocket propellant...and we have them, along with the kinetic penetrator warhead at the sword end.

Now you're back to minimum-range issues. It takes much more to accelerate a rocket projectile to Vmax. In essence, you're trading minimum range against recoil forces.

Depending on the location of the tank, and whether it was sitting or moving...you can certinly obtain 100m LOS. ie. park one at an intersection.

LOS, of and by itself, isn't difficult.

LOS from a position of concealment (which is kind of necessary to survive firing): rather more difficult.

61 posted on 06/07/2004 12:44:03 PM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah

Our enemy doesn't care about survival after firing.

One tanker dead? Good enough.

They'ed would have preferred to get a news camera in place ahead of time to catch the firing on tape though.


62 posted on 06/07/2004 12:47:46 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (I can only donate monthly ... But Kerry's ABBCNNBCBS press corpse lies every day.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Our enemy doesn't care about survival after firing.

At one point, they didn't.

Now, they do.

They're learning that there are fewer and fewer shaheen and fedayeen waiting in the wings after they martyr themselves.

63 posted on 06/07/2004 1:00:17 PM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head; Cannoneer No. 4
"Outside of that...perhaps the RPG-7 made a good hit, particularly if the shot came down from above."

Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan routinely fire RPG's at high elevation angles so that they come down and explode like mortar rounds. By luck or by design, the 4.5 second timer on the RPG round kicks off just as gravity has pulled the round back down to Earth when fired thusly.

64 posted on 06/07/2004 1:02:35 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
HV through rocket propellant is completely dependant on the propellant and its efficiency...we have some very efficient propellant...can't say what the Ruskies or others may have come up with. Having said that, I have already conceded that the likelihood of these Jihadists having it is very low.

As to your last point, when you are deling with these Islamofascict Jihadists...that point is not as relevant. Their concern about surviving the engagement is not a given at all, therefore they only need to get the shot off.

65 posted on 06/07/2004 1:03:49 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head
HV through rocket propellant is completely dependant on the propellant and its efficiency...we have some very efficient propellant...can't say what the Ruskies or others may have come up with. Having said that, I have already conceded that the likelihood of these Jihadists having it is very low.

Exactly.

The propellant's specific impulse and the projectile mass determine the MINIMUM range. Inside that range, the projectile will not penetrate--it's still traveling too slowly.

Rocket-boosted KE rounds have min-ranges more suited to fighting in open terrain than in urban warfare.

As to your last point, when you are deling with these Islamofascict Jihadists...that point is not as relevant. Their concern about surviving the engagement is not a given at all, therefore they only need to get the shot off.

Last month: true. This month: not-so-true.

66 posted on 06/07/2004 1:06:59 PM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Southack
From post 44:

It could be a variant of the RPG-7/14 with one of the new tandem top attack warheads. I believe this is why they created the armored vents for the M-1s engine last year as they were vulnerable to top attack warheads. This is the new trend for the rest of the world(we've been using TA warheads for awhile), so hopefully the U.S. Army will come up with a countermeasure.

If indeed and RPG-7 did it, it was probably something like this and I doubt they were being lobbed like a mortar round...probably direct fire from a location on a roof or some structure.

67 posted on 06/07/2004 1:18:29 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
My point is that we have propellant that gets it up to speed amazingly fast.

As to Jihadists being willing to commit suicide by Abrams...in Iraq, amongst Iraqis, the number has never been too high...it's the outsiders I believe, and we are reducing their numbers. conaiderably..but until we pacify the entire Mid East, including Palestine...they will keep finding those who will do so...ergo, there will be those for whom cover is not critial except to conceal them until they pop out and shoot.

68 posted on 06/07/2004 1:24:34 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Last Dakotan

Nope...that's an add-on. I do hear they offer the neat wrist watches as a free incentive though.


69 posted on 06/07/2004 1:30:31 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head
My point is that we have propellant that gets it up to speed amazingly fast.

Which is a relative term to a main gun round, which is at Vmax when it leaves the muzzle.

Again, the ranges I've seen quoted on rocket-propelled KE rounds relegates them to the vanishing open battlefield.

70 posted on 06/07/2004 1:34:04 PM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
Poohbah, the point is, there are HV rounds that are rocket propelled that get it up to speed fast enough to be lethal to an Abrams, and they can do it on the battlefield...close enough in to make them effective.

If we have them opertional (and we do) then it is a safe bet with this type of technology that our adversaries are close...although probably not giving it to the Islamos yet. For most of the discussion you were focused on the wrong munition (30mm DU), and arguing, proving, foot-in-mouthing, regarding that as opposed to speaking to the technology I was discussing.

In addition, contrary to what you said earlier, the Kornet has plenty of minimum range capability to be a threat in the urban environment...100M. It has been reported that the Iraqis had some of these missiles and we have lost some tanks. They are a possibility.

The RPG-7, as you stated, is also a good possibility...and I have not discounted that or denied it. Particularly with the TA rounds.

'nuff said...time to stop beating a dead horse...at this point I'll just wait for the official report. Just refer back to this clause/paragraph for any further discussion on these points.

71 posted on 06/07/2004 1:52:13 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head
Poohbah, the point is, there are HV rounds that are rocket propelled that get it up to speed fast enough to be lethal to an Abrams, and they can do it on the battlefield...close enough in to make them effective.

Try again. The figures I've seen on LOSAT (which is the best-of-breed in RPHVKEAP) are in the 500m+ range.

72 posted on 06/07/2004 1:59:31 PM PDT by Poohbah ("Mister Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" -- President Ronald Reagan, Berlin, 1987)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: steplock
Articles like this are shameful. Provide the family with a perpetual state of wondering 'what' really happened and WHY? Laying a premise for the family to blame the military and the Military Industrial Complex for providing sub-standart equipment to our boys.

I say to the parents and loved ones of our WARRIORS TODAY, if you think you or THEY have it bad, think OMAHA BEACH on D-Day 1944.

73 posted on 06/07/2004 2:01:37 PM PDT by PISANO (NEVER FORGET 911 !!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
See the last paragraph of post 71.

As to...

500m+ range

IRMC for MER.

74 posted on 06/07/2004 2:19:06 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: Lion Den Dan

The Special Training Regiment is for special needs 1812's who used to ride the short bus to school.


75 posted on 06/07/2004 2:44:31 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: All
The RPG-7V1 Threat
76 posted on 06/07/2004 3:01:12 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: archy; Gringo1; Matthew James; Fred Mertz; Squantos; colorado tanker; The Shrew; SLB; Darksheare; ..

ping


77 posted on 06/07/2004 3:02:35 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

Read it, still not sure myself what to make of it.
Might have been a Kornet missile, or a newer RPG, or maybe someone is testing weaponry on our boys out there.
Railguns can be built, and the 'something' that breached the other tank might have been one of those deals, but this one is different, sounds like a missile of one type or another.


78 posted on 06/07/2004 3:05:47 PM PDT by Darksheare (I categorically deny that my tagline is making a categorical denial.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head

The guy in the photo looks more likely to be commanding a bar stool rather than an advanced weapon.


79 posted on 06/07/2004 3:18:46 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: Last Dakotan

Perhaps so...but if he knows how to operate that weapon and fire it at the right moment...he can sure enough kill you. Best not to underestimate them.


80 posted on 06/07/2004 4:27:10 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com - The next World War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-86 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson