Taking Back the City Park, One Small Step at a Time (Benicia, Calif)

myself ^ | July 23, 2004 | myself

[Michael.SF.]

Actually, the redhead lady, pictured above removing her signs, spent a few minutes studying the one below. Later I approached her, in a polite manner, to try and engage in a discussion. She refused to talk and said that I was 'offensive.' The other woman also said that I was 'horning in' on their 'space'.

[Michael.SF.]

Grampa Dave,

Would love to have you join us. I try to be there by 3:00 PM to stake out the turf. The AWC shows up around 4:30.

[Michael.SF.]

Your response and words of encouragement are appreciated.

[Michael.SF.]

Just was looking into this a bit more and found what we are up against:

Solano County Peace and Justice Group

Looks like they are well organized. There are two articles about the Thursday protests.

[bgcountry187]

well done!! hope you can stay in touch with us protest warriors and come to more events. we can use all the bodies we can get. great job!!

[Aldous]

Regarding Michaels' comment that Ms. Kneisler’s Iraq death toll site "... makes no attempt to predict how many thousands of Iraqi’s would have been killed under Saddam, had he been allowed to continue in power..." Please do put a site together with that information. I would like to see those stats. I'm afraid those numbers would be far lower than the number of Iraqi civilians killed in the US-led war. If you include the number of Iraqi civilians who've been victims of suicide car bombs and kidnappings (which did not occur before the liberation), the number of casualties and the amount of human suffering triggered by the US presence is even greater.

Saddam was actually pretty well contained during the months leading up to war. The weapons inspections were working- if not finding any WMD they were preventing new projects from being launched. Sometimes constructive change takes time, and forcing it too quickly does more harm than good. Regime change occurred in Russia and South Africa without military intervention.

The massacre of the Kurds in '91 is often presented out of context. Those people, encouraged by the US during the Gulf war, rose up and fought Saddam. We were not there to help them when Saddam retaliated. Yes it was a terrible thing, but please put it in the proper perspective - in the context of war.

Iraq is in chaos - the new government is in jeopardy. The infrastructure is in shambles. Skilled professionals are leaving the country in droves because of the kidnapping threat, leaving the only unskilled to rebuild. Our actions have inspired more hate than love in the Arab world, actually worsening the threat of terrorism. The action in Iraq was botched and was not at all in line with the true principals of Conservatism.

Yes, I'll probably get kicked off the forum for saying these things. I only wish that we could have a rational dialog instead of all the name calling that is the standard these days.

[Michael.SF.]

I had not noticed your comments until now and would like to add a few comments to yours:

The weapons inspections were working-

This is a common misnomer, one made by the use of the word "inspectors". Actually the UN representatives were not sent to "find" WMD's, they were sent to verify that alll WMD's had been destroyed. There is a huge difference, one which is not understood by most people.

if not finding any WMD they were preventing new projects from being launched.

Upon what first hand info is that based? We only would have the word of Saddam and his followers to confirm that.

Sometimes constructive change takes time, and forcing it too quickly does more harm than good.

What is the time frame that you are defining here. Ten years? That was how long we waited. A lot of people were killed, raped and tortured during that interim. All the while, key people within th UN and others were receiving enormous kick backs from Sadaam's people.

Regime change occurred in Russia and South Africa without military intervention.

Your kidding? Russia? You are forgetting the roadblocks we put in front of Soviet expansion. Do you not think the threat of NATO was not a factor in the ultimate collapse of the USSR?

South Africa? Only a total world boycott, one w/o massive kickbacks allowed SA to become what it is today. Also, the new government of SA wanted to be rid of their WMD's and cooperated. This is in complete contradiction to the response in Iraq.

Yes, I'll probably get kicked off

I hope not. I for one would welcome this kind of exchange.

[Michael.SF.]

The massacre of the Kurds in '91 is often presented out of context... please put it in the proper perspective - in the context of war.

So you are willing to put the death of the Kurds into the 'context of war', but are unwilling to put the death of Iraqi civilians today into the same context?

One of the beauties of allowing the leftist ideology to express itself is that it usually is unable to withstand direct questions based on statements that have been made by those who espouse a leftist and Anti-American attitude.

This is a perfect example. You are willing to forgive Saddam for the direct use of chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of civilians, but you stand in the park in Benicia each Thursday to condemn Bush and US soldiers for the collateral damage which is inevitable in all wars.

[Michael.SF.]

how many thousands of Iraqi’s would have been killed under Saddam. I would like to see those stats. I'm afraid those numbers would be far lower than the number of Iraqi civilians killed in the US-led war.

Well, again, it seems that you and your friends choose to only look at one aspect of the situation today. I did a quick search and found this website which claims over 400,000 Iraqi's killed during Saddam's reign. I am sure if I had more time I could find any number of sources to confirm those numbers. Even if those numbers are wrong by a large factor, the number which would remain is far larger then the civilian deaths that have occurred during this war.