Skip to comments.Lutherans ordain gay pastor
Posted on 07/26/2004 4:51:56 PM PDT by Rakkasan1
Swathed in a white robe with a rope cinched about his waist, Jay Wiesner stood in silence Sunday afternoon as parishioners clustered around, laying their hands on his shoulders while scores more stretched out their hands in his direction.
(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...
Jay Wiesner? What's a nice Jewish boy doing becoming a gay Lutheran pastor?
I bet Luther would not be amused.
God is watching.....
I don't blame you for leaving ELCA. I would gently recommend the WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) for a truly Lutheran faith.
I bet his parents were shocked whey they found out their son was goy.
Extremely Liberal Church of America
God is not amused by these so called churches picking and choosing which portions of His Word they will teach and obey. There are qualifications for being a pastor or teacher. He does not meet them and they have no right to ordain him.
he'd probably nail this priest to the door.
....The Missouri Synod would never allow this...
How right you are! I'm so glad my daughter attends one of the Concordia Universities, a very strict Missouri Synod school.
Well, TonyRo, it's time for the Lutheran Ping list!
For all of you posting about the "liberal ELCA"--here's a brief version of the REAL story: the ELCA is really a largely conservative church that has been hijacked by liberal, revisionist mis-leaders, like several other "mainline" churches. (There are several different varieties of Lutheran conservatives, which complicates the issue.)
In summer 2005, the ELCA Churchwide Assembly is mandated to vote on whether to officially ordain non-celebate gays and to "bless" gay "unions". This vote is very likley to spit the ELCA into several pieces, and to send many individual members and families scurrying out of it, especially in liberal synods where they have few or no Lutheran alternatives.
Nearly all Western (i.e., non-Eastern Orthodox) mainline churches are in trouble in North America and in Europe. Look at the Roman Catholics (sex scandal, lawsuits, churches closing, etc.) and the Episcopal church (gay bishop, churches leaving and forming a conservative "province") for the biggest examples. Churches in trouble include BOTH the ELCA and the Missouri Synod, for different reasons.
It's time to pray, to ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and to get togehter with other conservative Christians. Joining the FR Lutheran ping list may be part of doing that, especially for FR Lutherans who have not already done so.
OK you've caught my attention....what is troubling the Missouri Synod?
I'd be careful with the "would never" bit. I'll bet whoever first dedicated money for the pews in this ELCA church years and years ago (if it's more than a couple generations old) would have been horrified by this action, too.
Put me on that Lutheran ping list, PLEASE!!
Yes, I second the question: What is troubling the Missouri Synod?
The Missouri Synod Lutheran church in Broken Arrow is a wonderful church...the only other church I allow my jedis to go to VBS (we're Southern Baptist). The pastor's wife is one of my very dearest friends!
My in-laws go to an ELCA up north, and just had a relative and her girlfriend post their "family" picture together in the church directory!
They are just like night and day, these two churches!
I stand corrected. I think it was the "Jay" that pushed it over the top for me.
The world is trying the experiment of attempting to form a civilized but non-Christian mentality. The experiment will fail; but we must be very patient in awaiting its collapse; meanwhile redeeming the time; so that the Faith may be preserved alive through the dark ages before us; to renew and rebuild civilization, and to save the world from suicide."
T.S. Eliot, Christianity and Culture
TonyRo76 is in charge of the Lutheran ping list--send a message to him if you want to be on it (if he doesn't do it automatically anyway because of this message of mine).
The Missouri Synod is troubled in part because it fights over much smaller differences than those we fight over in the ELCA, which I do not fully understand--LCMS Freepers, please help me out! They just had a very divisive presidential election, for example. The LCMS also is in trouble because of its large anti-liturgical "church growth movement" faction that dilutes and de-empasizes the sacramental life that is central to most orthodox Lutherans, especially an evangelical catholic/Evangelical Orthodox Lutheran like me. (There are "growthers" in the ELCA, too. And there are evanglical catholics in the LCMS--it's all very complicated for an outsider--and many insiders--to understand. There are even "ELCA wanabe" liberals in the LCMS, although I can't understand why.)
To The Pastor--thank you for continuing the good fight. I hope that you are a member of the Society of the Holy Trinity, or are at least familiar with the Evangelical Lutheran Confessing Fellowship, so that you do not have to fight alone. For your information, I am a layman who subscribes to "Lutheran Forum", and attend a Serbian Orthodox congregation in addition to my ELCA congregation. God bless you!
Good point. Never say never!
I think Pr. Henrickson can shed some light on the LCMS's troubles.
Wonder if Bishop Hansen will continue to look the other way....
Amen, my FRiend! That is exactly what we need to do. And...
Joining the FR Lutheran ping list may be part of doing that...
Thanks for the plug! ;)
That's been very disturbing to me, the more I've learned about it. There is apparently a large "conservative" contingent within the LCMS that opposes the current president because he's perceived as too friendly with other Christianseven other conservative Christians. In some LCMS circles, worshipping and/or fellowshipping with non-LCMS folks is considered "syncretism" and strictly verboten. All I can ask is, "Why?"
My attitude is, the whole Church is under attack these days! Like you stated so well in a previous post...the thing to do now is pray, and come together to join our prayers and efforts with those of other like-minded Believers.
It's not about "gee, we're Lutheran; they're Reformed/Anglican/Baptist, so we're different"! That's a crock. The Church must stand united in mission (Jn 17:21).
The only division I see today in the Christian Church is between those who believe the Word (evangelicals) and those who don't (liberals). And even that is a false distinction in a way...because if you don't believe what the Bible says is true, then you might as well be Unitarian (i.e. non-Christian) because you've placed yourself outside the Church.
Excellent! It's good to see fellow Christians supporting individual freedom :)
See #30. There could well be other problems or aspects of this problem that I'm not aware of; but that's the general gist of it.
Yes, thank you. I was raised in a different church, and recently married into the Lutheran church. There's so much that I just don't understand. Lutherans comport themselves much differently than I'm accustomed to...
Please put me on the ping list....
Please send this thread to the entire Lutheran Ping list, so that other Lutheran Freepers can see the latest assault of the revisionists upon us.
I am convinced that the revsionist/gay strategy is to wear us down with acts such as this one, so that no matter what the vote is in 2005 (or whether there is a vote at all), they win. And it will make it that much harder for us to decide what to do in 2005 and beyond, i.e., whether to stay in the ELCA or to leave.
I am a member of an ELCA-affiliated church just a few miles south of the Lutheran Seminary in Gettysburg. There are not less than six ELCA-affiliated churches within a couple of miles of my home, but no other Lutheran churches. I am not sure exactly what my church will do if the ELCA decides to embrace an abomination that is clearly condemned by Scripture. However, I do know that my family as well as a number of our friends will not attend a church that has turned its back on the Word in such a manner.
Perhaps at least one of the Lutheran churches in town will continue to follow the teachings of Christ, even if it means leaving the ELCA.
Question: If the local bishop does not recognize this, then is he really ordained? I thought the bishop had to be involved in sanctioning an official "ordination"?
Just curious. There may be more to the story down the road....
For those who are interested in joining the fight go to: www.ELCF.net
Please add me to the Lutheran ping list.
That is a great site! I've been aware of it, but thank you for posting the URL so others can go take a look.
My reply here concerns the LCMS,
I was a voting lay delegate at the St. Louis convention we had two weeks ago. My take is the LCMS has very few problems. I am as conservative as a man can be. There are times the GOP is to moderate for me. Also my theology and strong belief in the Holy Word and Lutheran confessions is strong. My take on the LCMS, and I was there all week at the convention. Is we are all conservative in our theological stances, a Church true to the Word of God and the Lutheran Confessions. Our take is that the holy word is literal true word of God, against Woman pastors, against abortion, against homosexuality, evolution, etc.
The issue is what do we focus on the most; Doctrine (confession) or Mission and growth. The ultra structural doctrine type want to focus almost totally on that, the reason is a fear we promote mission to much and forget doctrine we will become like the other lost Christian churches. The domino effect as I see it. As state in an earlier post, there is a fear that if a LCMS Church changes its worship service style to more contemporary then it will start a slippery slop that will lead us down a path false doctrine. Also if we talk and work with other Christian bodies that our unsound it will damage us and we fall prey also.
The other side is saying We most focus on our primary duty to be a tool the Holy Spirit uses it reaching the lost souls. That we should focus on missions and the great commission and growth the lord church, if that means changing our service some and changing our structure of worship and song for some churches and also focusing primarily on evangelism. This side says this is our first Duty, but to also keep true to the Holy Scripture and the Lutheran confessions. That is the question can we keep that. The answer I concluded was Yes. Everyone there was conservative and true to the scripture and confession. It is really a political power struggle between those who want to focus on growth the LCMS and keep true to our principles, but make the Churches more mission driven and growth the Church. Against the people who wish the LCMS to stay as we have been in our worship style and structure.
What must be remembered is the principles do not change, true to sacraments, confession and absolution, etc., what changes is the song, etc. Also is the practice of closed communion can be an issue. Must remember that as a Church Body the LCMS is still one of the most conservative and will remain that way as long as we stay true to the holy word of God. Once we change and start throwing our scripture saying it does not fit into todays society then we are in the same trouble as the ELCA of the world (i.e. Women pastors, abortion, homosexuality, all un biblical practices) Yet, certain parts of the worship service based on human authority, i.e. What creed, songs, are ushers male or female, can women read the Old Testament scripture etc. The question is a human structural question we face and we have always faced it, the worry that with a little change we will change our biblical and confessional principles. But this did not happen when we went from German services to English in the 40s, or woman did not have to sit on one side of church and men the other, or we allowed woman to vote in the 70s. These were human rules. From what I saw the LCMS is found on its Biblical principles and will not change that. We will never allow woman pastors, or homosexual members let alone pastors, or approve of abortion because it is unbiblical.
The reason is we have only two great seminaries that are very true to the word of God and the Confessions. The liberal seminaries are what as harmed the ELCA.
To go where, exactly? This seems like a really odd course of action.
BTW, thanks for shedding a little more light on the LCMS situtation. I just think it's terribly hurtful and ineffective to be arguing over such minutiae, when there are much bigger battles to be waged for Christ's Church.
And especially on the liturgy stuff...Jesus plainly tells us in John 4 (to the Samaritan woman) that God desires worshipers who will worship in spirit and in truth! Do people really think God is sitting up there saying "I like A Mighty Fortress better than Open the Eyes of My Heart"???
On the subject of inter denominational fellowship, the "CCM" fiasco the ELCA has embarked upon is clearly a shaky bargain, but look who the participants are! Two "lefts" don't make a right.
On the other hand, I have no problem fellowshipping with Christians of other theological traditions as long as they are conservative and Evangelical in outlook. Indeed, joining forces with other Bible-believing Christians is IMO the only way we're gonna live the Gospel, take back our churches, and undo all the harm lieberals have done over the years.
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