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Lutherans ordain gay pastor
Star Tribine ^ | 7-26-04 | Chao Xiong

Posted on 07/26/2004 4:51:56 PM PDT by Rakkasan1

Swathed in a white robe with a rope cinched about his waist, Jay Wiesner stood in silence Sunday afternoon as parishioners clustered around, laying their hands on his shoulders while scores more stretched out their hands in his direction.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: elca; gaylutheran; homosexualagenda; lutherans; religiousleft; sin
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"...all ye like sheep have gone astray." this is one reason my church left the ELCA 2 years ago to become independent... We also don't post those no guns allowed signs.
1 posted on 07/26/2004 4:51:56 PM PDT by Rakkasan1
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To: Rakkasan1

Jay Wiesner? What's a nice Jewish boy doing becoming a gay Lutheran pastor?


2 posted on 07/26/2004 4:53:34 PM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: Rakkasan1

I bet Luther would not be amused.


3 posted on 07/26/2004 4:54:01 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: Hodar

bump


4 posted on 07/26/2004 4:54:47 PM PDT by zlala
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To: Rakkasan1

God is watching.....


5 posted on 07/26/2004 4:55:34 PM PDT by Integrityrocks
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Rakkasan1
EEKS! I might add that the ELCA is the most liberal branch of the Lutheran church. The Missouri Synod would never allow this. It's like two completely different churches really.
7 posted on 07/26/2004 4:55:55 PM PDT by Indie (Ignorance of the truth is no excuse for stupidity.)
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To: Rakkasan1

I don't blame you for leaving ELCA. I would gently recommend the WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) for a truly Lutheran faith.


8 posted on 07/26/2004 4:56:00 PM PDT by YankeeDoodleBoy
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To: governsleastgovernsbest; Rakkasan1; rmlew
Jay Wiesner? What's a nice Jewish boy doing becoming a gay Lutheran pastor?

I bet his parents were shocked whey they found out their son was goy.

9 posted on 07/26/2004 4:56:09 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: Indie

Extremely Liberal Church of America


10 posted on 07/26/2004 4:59:53 PM PDT by Rakkasan1 (Justice of the Piece-(carry daily;apply sparingly))
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To: Rakkasan1

God is not amused by these so called churches picking and choosing which portions of His Word they will teach and obey. There are qualifications for being a pastor or teacher. He does not meet them and they have no right to ordain him.


11 posted on 07/26/2004 4:59:59 PM PDT by Knute (I may not agree with what you have on your bumper sticker, but I will defend your right to stick it)
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To: Paleo Conservative

he'd probably nail this priest to the door.


12 posted on 07/26/2004 5:03:14 PM PDT by Rakkasan1 (Justice of the Piece-(carry daily;apply sparingly))
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To: Indie

....The Missouri Synod would never allow this...

How right you are! I'm so glad my daughter attends one of the Concordia Universities, a very strict Missouri Synod school.


13 posted on 07/26/2004 5:15:05 PM PDT by Softballmom
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To: Rakkasan1; TonyRo76

Well, TonyRo, it's time for the Lutheran Ping list!

For all of you posting about the "liberal ELCA"--here's a brief version of the REAL story: the ELCA is really a largely conservative church that has been hijacked by liberal, revisionist mis-leaders, like several other "mainline" churches. (There are several different varieties of Lutheran conservatives, which complicates the issue.)

In summer 2005, the ELCA Churchwide Assembly is mandated to vote on whether to officially ordain non-celebate gays and to "bless" gay "unions". This vote is very likley to spit the ELCA into several pieces, and to send many individual members and families scurrying out of it, especially in liberal synods where they have few or no Lutheran alternatives.

Nearly all Western (i.e., non-Eastern Orthodox) mainline churches are in trouble in North America and in Europe. Look at the Roman Catholics (sex scandal, lawsuits, churches closing, etc.) and the Episcopal church (gay bishop, churches leaving and forming a conservative "province") for the biggest examples. Churches in trouble include BOTH the ELCA and the Missouri Synod, for different reasons.

It's time to pray, to ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and to get togehter with other conservative Christians. Joining the FR Lutheran ping list may be part of doing that, especially for FR Lutherans who have not already done so.


14 posted on 07/26/2004 5:19:11 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Michael Reagan is pro-Serbian, too!!)
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To: Honorary Serb
Churches in trouble include BOTH the ELCA and the Missouri Synod, for different reasons.

OK you've caught my attention....what is troubling the Missouri Synod?

15 posted on 07/26/2004 5:23:39 PM PDT by Tactical
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To: Indie

I'd be careful with the "would never" bit. I'll bet whoever first dedicated money for the pews in this ELCA church years and years ago (if it's more than a couple generations old) would have been horrified by this action, too.


16 posted on 07/26/2004 5:47:40 PM PDT by jwalburg (Hatriots for Kerry)
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To: Honorary Serb
You are absolutely right about the ELCA being hijacked by a group of leftwing activists who are now trying to ram their gay agenda down out throats. Unfortunately, only a few of us (out of thousands of traditional Lutherans) have been willing to stand up and fight against this apostacy.

Put me on that Lutheran ping list, PLEASE!!

17 posted on 07/26/2004 5:52:01 PM PDT by Russ
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To: Honorary Serb; Tactical

Yes, I second the question: What is troubling the Missouri Synod?


18 posted on 07/26/2004 5:54:12 PM PDT by OKSooner
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: OKSooner

The Missouri Synod Lutheran church in Broken Arrow is a wonderful church...the only other church I allow my jedis to go to VBS (we're Southern Baptist). The pastor's wife is one of my very dearest friends!

My in-laws go to an ELCA up north, and just had a relative and her girlfriend post their "family" picture together in the church directory!

They are just like night and day, these two churches!


20 posted on 07/26/2004 6:13:19 PM PDT by 2Jedismom (Expect me when you see me!)
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To: Paleo Conservative

LOL


21 posted on 07/26/2004 6:19:08 PM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: William Creel

I stand corrected. I think it was the "Jay" that pushed it over the top for me.


22 posted on 07/26/2004 6:19:56 PM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: The Pastor
Some must stand to "redeem the time." Russell Kirk popularized that phrase from T. S. Elliot. You might have use for the original quote, so here it is:
The world is trying the experiment of attempting to form a civilized but non-Christian mentality. The experiment will fail; but we must be very patient in awaiting its collapse; meanwhile redeeming the time; so that the Faith may be preserved alive through the dark ages before us; to renew and rebuild civilization, and to save the world from suicide."
T.S. Eliot, Christianity and Culture

23 posted on 07/26/2004 6:29:47 PM PDT by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free....)
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To: Russ; Tactical; OKSooner; TonyRo76; The Pastor

TonyRo76 is in charge of the Lutheran ping list--send a message to him if you want to be on it (if he doesn't do it automatically anyway because of this message of mine).

The Missouri Synod is troubled in part because it fights over much smaller differences than those we fight over in the ELCA, which I do not fully understand--LCMS Freepers, please help me out! They just had a very divisive presidential election, for example. The LCMS also is in trouble because of its large anti-liturgical "church growth movement" faction that dilutes and de-empasizes the sacramental life that is central to most orthodox Lutherans, especially an evangelical catholic/Evangelical Orthodox Lutheran like me. (There are "growthers" in the ELCA, too. And there are evanglical catholics in the LCMS--it's all very complicated for an outsider--and many insiders--to understand. There are even "ELCA wanabe" liberals in the LCMS, although I can't understand why.)

To The Pastor--thank you for continuing the good fight. I hope that you are a member of the Society of the Holy Trinity, or are at least familiar with the Evangelical Lutheran Confessing Fellowship, so that you do not have to fight alone. For your information, I am a layman who subscribes to "Lutheran Forum", and attend a Serbian Orthodox congregation in addition to my ELCA congregation. God bless you!


24 posted on 07/26/2004 8:32:44 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Michael Reagan is pro-Serbian, too!!)
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To: jwalburg

Good point. Never say never!


25 posted on 07/26/2004 9:11:21 PM PDT by Indie (Ignorance of the truth is no excuse for stupidity.)
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To: Honorary Serb; OKSooner; Tactical; Charles Henrickson

I think Pr. Henrickson can shed some light on the LCMS's troubles.


26 posted on 07/26/2004 9:14:13 PM PDT by ItsBacon (I smell bacon! Where's the bacon? baconbaconbaconbaconbaconbaconbaconbacon)
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To: Honorary Serb
Nearly all Western (i.e., non-Eastern Orthodox) mainline churches are in trouble in North America and in Europe. Look at the Roman Catholics (sex scandal, lawsuits, churches closing, etc.) and the Episcopal church (gay bishop, churches leaving and forming a conservative "province") for the biggest examples. Churches in trouble include BOTH the ELCA and the Missouri Synod, for different reasons.

It's time to pray, to ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and to get togehter with other conservative Christians. Joining the FR Lutheran ping list may be part of doing that, especially for FR Lutherans who have not already done so.


I agree with you there, I'm planning on going back to church once I get my career ducks in a row, long story there, but the Lutheran Church I was bapitized in and attended long ago is a member of the ELCA. I guess I will have to fish around to see if the Church follows the Conservative or Liberal wing of the ELCA. Are there any pointers in going about this or should I just ask the pastor and make up my own mind?

BTW, I'm German and Swedish on Mom's side and Serbian, Russian, and Russian Jew on Dad's side and my last name is Serbian although it is more of an English corruption of the original Serbian name. I consider myself pro-Serb too, I think in Kosovo, we put our money on the wrong dog in that fight.

If there is a Lutheran ping list, count me in too.
27 posted on 07/26/2004 9:21:17 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("Laws are the spider webs through which the big bugs fly past and the little ones get caught.")
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To: Rakkasan1
It was the third calling of an openly gay pastor by a Twin Cities congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

Wonder if Bishop Hansen will continue to look the other way....

28 posted on 07/26/2004 9:28:46 PM PDT by aberaussie
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To: TonyRo76

Yes, thank you. I was raised in a different church, and recently married into the Lutheran church. There's so much that I just don't understand. Lutherans comport themselves much differently than I'm accustomed to...


34 posted on 07/27/2004 5:26:40 AM PDT by OKSooner
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76

Please put me on the ping list....


36 posted on 07/27/2004 7:24:19 AM PDT by Softballmom
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To: TonyRo76

Please send this thread to the entire Lutheran Ping list, so that other Lutheran Freepers can see the latest assault of the revisionists upon us.

I am convinced that the revsionist/gay strategy is to wear us down with acts such as this one, so that no matter what the vote is in 2005 (or whether there is a vote at all), they win. And it will make it that much harder for us to decide what to do in 2005 and beyond, i.e., whether to stay in the ELCA or to leave.


37 posted on 07/27/2004 9:24:59 AM PDT by Honorary Serb (Michael Reagan is pro-Serbian, too!!)
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Paleo Conservative

LOL


39 posted on 07/27/2004 10:00:58 AM PDT by msdrby (Great things come at great cost. - John Nash)
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To: The Pastor

Pastor,

I am a member of an ELCA-affiliated church just a few miles south of the Lutheran Seminary in Gettysburg. There are not less than six ELCA-affiliated churches within a couple of miles of my home, but no other Lutheran churches. I am not sure exactly what my church will do if the ELCA decides to embrace an abomination that is clearly condemned by Scripture. However, I do know that my family as well as a number of our friends will not attend a church that has turned its back on the Word in such a manner.

Perhaps at least one of the Lutheran churches in town will continue to follow the teachings of Christ, even if it means leaving the ELCA.


40 posted on 07/27/2004 10:36:27 AM PDT by RebelBanker (Now I understand! "Allah" is Arabic for "Satan.")
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To: Rakkasan1; TonyRo76; All
Bishop Craig Johnson of the ELCA Minneapolis Synod did not attend Sunday's service and in the past has not officially recognized a local lesbian pastor.

Question: If the local bishop does not recognize this, then is he really ordained? I thought the bishop had to be involved in sanctioning an official "ordination"?

Just curious. There may be more to the story down the road....

41 posted on 07/27/2004 10:39:43 AM PDT by rightwingreligiousfanatic (We will not tire, we will not falter, we will not fail. -- W)
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To: TonyRo76
Thanks for putting me on the ping list. The church I attend is a member of the ELCA but we have also joined the ELCF (Evangelical Lutheran Confessing Fellowship) a group fighting the ELCA's leftward tilt from within.

For those who are interested in joining the fight go to: www.ELCF.net

42 posted on 07/27/2004 10:43:39 AM PDT by Russ
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To: TonyRo76; Tactical; OKSooner
Some churches have already left the LCMS, with more to follow. Basically, the reelected president is trying to move the LCMS to a more "mainstream" position on some things non liturgical worship and inter denominational fellowship.

I have problems with both. The ECUSA/ECLA mess has shown that you had better be careful about the friends you keep, and part of the BOC and Ausburg Confessions is dedicated to keeping worship liturgical.

However, I am not one of those who think if your service is more "contemporary" you are in danger of hell. Yes, it can lead to less reverence to the Word and Sacrament, but some people are reached in different ways.

There are good and orthodox Christians on both sides, as well as those who are acting in a very unchristian manner. My problem is that this whole thing has gotten so ugly so fast that the whole synod my very well destroy itself.
43 posted on 07/27/2004 10:52:45 AM PDT by redgolum
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To: TonyRo76

Please add me to the Lutheran ping list.


44 posted on 07/27/2004 10:53:22 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76

My reply here concerns the LCMS,

I was a voting lay delegate at the St. Louis convention we had two weeks ago. My take is the LCMS has very few problems. I am as conservative as a man can be. There are times the GOP is to moderate for me. Also my theology and strong belief in the Holy Word and Lutheran confessions is strong. My take on the LCMS, and I was there all week at the convention. Is we are all conservative in our theological stances, a Church true to the Word of God and the Lutheran Confessions. Our take is that the holy word is literal true word of God, against Woman pastors, against abortion, against homosexuality, evolution, etc.

The issue is what do we focus on the most; Doctrine (confession) or Mission and growth. The ultra structural doctrine type want to focus almost totally on that, the reason is a fear we promote mission to much and forget doctrine we will become like the other lost Christian churches. The domino effect as I see it. As state in an earlier post, there is a fear that if a LCMS Church changes its worship service style to more contemporary then it will start a slippery slop that will lead us down a path false doctrine. Also if we talk and work with other Christian bodies that our unsound it will damage us and we fall prey also.

The other side is saying We most focus on our primary duty to be a tool the Holy Spirit uses it reaching the lost souls. That we should focus on missions and the great commission and growth the lord church, if that means changing our service some and changing our structure of worship and song for some churches and also focusing primarily on evangelism. This side says this is our first Duty, but to also keep true to the Holy Scripture and the Lutheran confessions. That is the question can we keep that. The answer I concluded was Yes. Everyone there was conservative and true to the scripture and confession. It is really a political power struggle between those who want to focus on growth the LCMS and keep true to our principles, but make the Churches more mission driven and growth the Church. Against the people who wish the LCMS to stay as we have been in our worship style and structure.

What must be remembered is the principles do not change, true to sacraments, confession and absolution, etc., what changes is the song, etc. Also is the practice of closed communion can be an issue. Must remember that as a Church Body the LCMS is still one of the most conservative and will remain that way as long as we stay true to the holy word of God. Once we change and start throwing our scripture saying it does not fit into todays society then we are in the same trouble as the ELCA of the world (i.e. Women pastors, abortion, homosexuality, all un biblical practices) Yet, certain parts of the worship service based on human authority, i.e. What creed, songs, are ushers male or female, can women read the Old Testament scripture etc. The question is a human structural question we face and we have always faced it, the worry that with a little change we will change our biblical and confessional principles. But this did not happen when we went from German services to English in the 40’s, or woman did not have to sit on one side of church and men the other, or we allowed woman to vote in the 70’s. These were human rules. From what I saw the LCMS is found on its Biblical principles and will not change that. We will never allow woman pastors, or homosexual members let alone pastors, or approve of abortion because it is unbiblical.

The reason is we have only two great seminaries that are very true to the word of God and the Confessions. The liberal seminaries are what as harmed the ELCA.


46 posted on 07/27/2004 11:43:30 AM PDT by BQ91
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76
Oh yes, please add me to the Lutheran Ping list. I am also involved on the BOD of some Lutheran organization. I know quite a few leaders in the LCMS, Pastors, members of the LCMS BOD etc.

Also please note from my post above I am a true conservative confessional Evangelical Lutheran. Yet I truly believe we as Confessing Lutherans Number one passion and command from our Lord and savior Jesus Christ is the Great Commission, so that with the Grace of God the Holy Spirit will bring faith to those who who do not yet know Jesus as there Lord and Savior. For it is not us who does this but the Holy Spirit, but we can be the Lord messenger.

In Christ,

Troy
49 posted on 07/27/2004 11:53:44 AM PDT by BQ91
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To: TonyRo76
Take a look at Lutherquest.org. Some congregations have gone indi, and by the sound of it some are considering it.

My father is calling this the great Lutheran circle firing squad.
50 posted on 07/27/2004 11:53:47 AM PDT by redgolum
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