Posted on 08/16/2004 3:15:24 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
The Preamble:
"We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
No mention of "promoting the goals of Christianity" there.
Article I: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free excercise thereof;..."
Seems pretty clear on the subject, actually.
No offense, Long Cut, but your "analysis" is weak. Jefferson's quote, 'Separation of Church...", has been distorted by leftists, even though it is clear Jefferson did not mean his quote the way the leftist courts interpreted it. In general, Jefferson declared original intent to be the only valid interpretation, as follows:
"On every question of construction [of the constitution], carry ourselves back to the time when the constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." -- Thomas Jefferson, June 12, 1823
Another point: Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution, was clear in his belief that this was a Christian nation. The same was expressed in the opinions of all Supreme Court rulings on religious matters prior to 1900 (maybe even as late as 1946). I trust them far more than the new-fangled interpretations of godless leftists inflenced by the vile ACLU. You should, too.
I highly doubt that those of that ilk do much good for attracting others to Christianity.
Who wants to be hit with a cement bible? These types have forced my family out of lots of churches, since I don't want to walk, talk and think just like them.
Ah, so the guide should be what a judge BELIEVES,instead of what the document actually SAYS (as long as we agree). I get it now...
Inasmuch as its majority religion is Christianity, yes.
Legally and Constitutionally, no.
"The goal of the U.S. Constitution is to recognize God-given rights, not to advance the goals of Christianity."
Good summation.
-Long Cut-
___________________________________
I always shudder a bit when I see people seriously claim that our rights are "God given".
I foresee that an insistence upon a 'Creator' that gave us our rights presupposes a scenario where 'He' could take them away.
[Assisted by his earthly disciples, of course.]
There are far too many sects & cults that firmly believe that they can enforce 'God given rights', -- as they see fit to interpret them.
My favorite site for topics like these:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/
>> Which does not, of course, mean they weren't wrong.
Do you really expect us to believe that for more than 150 years the people did not understand the Constitution? That an accurate interpretation required a communist-front organization, the ACLU, helping Hugo Black and the 1947 Supreme Court interpret the Constitution?
That is the stupid thing I have heard since John Kerry's last speech. And it doesn't get much 'stupider' than that.
LOL! Excellent one!
"These types have forced my family out of lots of churches, since I don't want to walk, talk and think just like them."
They are likewise one of the reasons I no longer follow any organized religion, and do not wish to.
BTW, as the actual wording shows, the 1947 court wasn't the first time anyone thought of this. The FF's could have written it specifically into the Constitution, or the people could have passed an amendment at any time after that. They didn't.
"Stupidest". And personal attack noted, along with the obligatory Kerry slur.
I wholeheartedly agree. Not having a state religion protects the church. The church needs protection from the state, not the state from the church. Check out the stats on countries that have an "official" religion, such as the UK. The percentage of those who attend church and even believe in God is much lower than the U.S. Putting church and state, or religion and state, together can also hurt the state, which is evidenced in much of earlier European history, and you can see it today in a place like Saudi Arabia. I don't like theocracies. I think the founding fathers struck the right balance: Have a secular government run by people who believe in God.
I've seen a number of incidents...most notably the Texas Republican Party, who in their recent convention declared America a "Christian nation". Also, that is the unstated (but obvious) purpose of the posting of articles like this.
"A "state religion" is what the establishment clause is all about. The founders wanted no part of a Church of the United States."
Completely agree. However, there ARE some out there who want to push the idea.
The Founding Fathers use of 'Creator' is more or less a set of 'code words' which means 'not subject to the whims of government'.
Your religion, or in your case non-religion is of no concern to me. As long as you have no problem with my free exercise, I have no problem with yours.
Compulsion either way is offensive to me.
There's a difference between a non-sectarian State and a secularist State. You speak of "becoming" a State that has an official religion... there never has been any danger of that since the founding. I'm talking about a State "becoming" actively anti-religious anti-Christian and secularist to the point of exclusion of Christians. That's a danger. Historically we were what we were, not as the libertarians or liberals or whoever (even some Christians) would choose to rewrite who we were in order to bolster their ideology. Those who rewrite history have an agenda. If they want to point to Thomas Jefferson and say "Hey he believed what we do" then they better be prepared to accept the whole man, contradictions and all, not a shallow rewritten caricature of the man. The same goes for any other figure or event in American history.
I should, rather, ask you to prove this is a secular nation. But it is just as easy to quote Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, who wrote in his 1833 'Commentaries on the Constitution':
"Now, there will probably be found few persons in this, or any other Christian country, who would deliberately contend, that it was unreasonable, or unjust to foster and encourage the Christian religion generally, as a matter of sound policy, as well as of revealed truth. In fact, every American colony, from its foundation down to the revolution, . . . did openly, by the whole course of its laws and institutions, support and sustain, in some form, the Christian religion; and almost invariably gave a peculiar sanction to some of its fundamental doctrines. And this has continued to be the case in some of the states down to the present period, without the slightest suspicion, that it was against the principles of public law, or republican liberty."
So it boils down to who to believe. Do you believe the communist-inspired A.C.L.U. psychopaths, whose 'interpretations' have been used only in recent years for precedent'; or do you believe one of the earliest supreme court justices, who served distinguishedly for 34 years on the bench, and whose writings have been used through most of our nation's history as precedent for constitutional interpretation?
Not a thing you have posted proves that there was a compulsion to be Christian. There may have been a social expectation of Christianity as normal, but we never had religious police in this country as in an Islamic nation.
Did we ever have a Christian Taliban, which made sure you went to Church every Sunday, or you were stoned to death. NO, I thought not.
Do our FF Christian ethics make the fabric of the nation and its direction Christian. It is a broad subject. I do not think the nation was meant to be a nation of Christians but, I think our laws were based on the ethics of our belief system and traditions. Christian nation can have many meanings to many people. There are probably some on FR who are reporting this thread for abuse as I type. You can not even question without getting flamed. I do think this this is a Christian nation, just not one that needs to flaunt it to feel secure.
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