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Gun Control: For the Children?
ChronWatch ^ | March 04, 2004 | Howard Nemerov

Posted on 08/17/2004 11:04:55 AM PDT by neverdem

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Welcome to ChronWatch -- Striving for Balance in the News


Gun Control: For the Children?

Written by Howard Nemerov
Thursday, March 04, 2004

                                                        ~~o~~

       I am constantly amazed at the emotional highjacking and moral posturing of gun controllers.  Gun controllers are lying when they say they have children’s interests at heart; they are merely using children to promote their own goal of civilian disarmament.

       Senator Barbara Boxer sent out an e-mail that I received entitled ''Protecting Our Children.''  I have included the text, one paragraph at a time, to better understand the insanity and bigotry of a gun controller’s mind.

       ''An estimated 3.3 million children in the United States live in houses with guns. In most cases, those guns have so little trigger resistance they could be fired by a 3-year-old.  The potential for tragedy is overwhelming, and we need to act to diminish this threat to children.  Child safety locks are an easy and inexpensive way to make our children safer.  I recently introduced the 'Child Safety Device Act of 2004' to make these locks mandatory on manufacturer and dealer sales of handguns.''

       Notice the fear-mongering, followed by the standard rant of ''we need to act.'' Let’s not take time to think, let’s just do something to make us feel better about ourselves.  Let’s use children to bolster our failed self-esteem.

       ''Potential for tragedy'' means that there has not yet been tragedy.  Should we get rid of cars because they have a potential to mow down 50 farmers market customers at a time?  (1) Should we illegalize bath tubs and buckets because they kill more children each year than guns? (2)

       Over 70 million additional civilian firearms have been sold since 1990 (3), yet the firearm death rate for children under 15 has dropped 60%.  (4) With all those children living in homes containing firearms, if Boxer assumed correctly, the death rate should be much higher for children.

       More questions for Barbara: Why do you want to make firearms more expensive and less affordable to poorer folks who live in inner cities?  How are they to defend their children against violent predators?  A gun lock may be ''inexpensive'' to you, but that is not the case for the little people you profess to care so much for.

       “My legislation would require gun retailers to provide locking devices with any handgun they sell, and direct the Consumer Product Safety Commission to create a consumer product safety standard for the locking devices which ensures they are sufficiently protective and prevent discharge of the handgun unless the device has been removed.”

       Another one of Boxer’s ''reasonable gun control'' steps towards confiscation, this bill would begin to put gun regulation into the hands of three politically-appointed bureaucrats who could regulate civilian firearms out of existence.(5)  Their product safety standards could make it impossible for civilians to own firearms.  Ignoring the legal precedent of innocent until proven guilty, Boxer seeks to circumvent due process and legislative representation, and uses children to promote gun confiscation.

       “In 2000, more than nine young people aged 19 and under were killed each day in gun homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings in the United States.  1,776 children and teenagers were murdered with guns, 1,007 committed suicide with guns, and 193 died in unintentional shootings.  A recent Johns Hopkins study found that 44 percent of deaths could have been prevented with the use of safety devices.”

       Let’s take square aim at the crown jewel of gun control.  You will often hear the manta ''nine (up to 13) kids a day'' as if it is sacred truth.  It creates a vision of plaid-shirted goon squads mowing school children down like some sort of absurd horror story come to life.

       Notice how she fudges and uses the phrase ''children and teenagers.'' Guy Smith does an excellent job of debunking this myth about children and guns in his research paper entitled ''Gun Facts.'' (6)  When you subtract adults, criminals, and suicides, you end up with less than one child per day dying from guns. Contrast this with 13 children a day dying in cars, or four from parental abuse and neglect. These are all horrible tragedies, but Barbara, if you truly cared about children’s lives more than your own chances for reelection, wouldn’t your energies be better spent banning cars and parents?

       The vast majority of these ''young people'' are criminals shot while engaged in illegal activity.  They illegally own guns, and any new regulation would make it more likely that they would own illegal, unsafe firearms, while law-abiding citizens would own fewer.  This will drive up crime, as we won’t be able to defend ourselves from predators like the ones Boxer weeps over.

       Unlike Boxer’s contrived concern aimed at pandering to her anti-gun constituency, armed citizens show incredible self-discipline when attacked by teenage predators.  The vast majority of armed confrontations during commission of a crime result in the armed citizen holding criminals until the police arrive. (7)

       This gets to another part of the equation ignored by gun controllers: the cost of not owning a gun for self-defense.  Citizens who avoid becoming crime victims often save not only their lives, but their businesses which represent significant contribution to our economy.  By virtue of their age and ''occupation,'' teenage criminals have contributed nothing.  Armed citizens have saved our country billions of dollars in health care, insurance claims, and business infrastructure. (8)

       While gun ownership has risen, the suicide rate for children has dropped slightly. (9)  It is fascinating to note that the child suicide rate was lowest prior to the 1968 Gun Control Act, which banned children from purchasing guns.

       ''As a U.S. Senator, I have worked hard to keep guns out of the hands of our children, out of our schools, and off the streets.  This legislation ensures that guns that are purchased in the future can be safely secured.''

       Meaning, taken away from you, thereby giving the government absolute power over your sorry lives.  You are incompetent and stupid, and I don’t trust you.  ''Safely secured'' means owned exclusively by the government.

       Between 1.2 and 1.5 million children died during the Holocaust, most of them Jews. (10,11)  In 1938, Hitler, one of the world’s foremost experts on gun control, enacted gun laws that forbade Jews from owning firearms. (12)  When the Nazis came to round them up, parents had no way to protect their children.

       It took Hitler about six years to murder an average of 550 kids per day. (We haven’t even included all the children murdered by other world-famous gun control experts like Stalin and Mao.)  Compare this with less than one per day in our free society, or even Boxer’s 9 per day, as if gang-bangers won’t kill each other without guns.  At today’s death rates for the entire country, it would take over 60 years equal what Hitler did to only one segment of society, according to Boxer’s estimate. If compared to the accidental death rate for children, it would take over 1,000 years. This does not factor in the nearly tripled world population since 1940, so it may be closer to 3,000 years.

       Barbara, how can you possibly consider doing again to your people what history has shown to be the road to Hitler’s Final Solution?

Action Items for Those Who Are Interested

       Call your Congressional representatives and tell them to vote NO on S. 2129, the Child Safety Device Act of 2004.

Footnotes

(1)   Infant Dies After Santa Monica Farmers’ Market Crash. NBC4 TV News, July 17, 2003. http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2337407/detail.html

(2)   Gun Facts, Version 3.3. Guy Smith, 2003, page 188. Go to http://www.gunfacts.info/ and select the format you prefer. Quoted here: statistics from CDC, 1999.

(3)   Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/firearmscommerce/firearmscommerce.pdf

(4)   Table 47 (page 1 of 3). Death rates for firearm-related injuries, according to sex, race, Hispanic origin, and age: United States, selected years 1970–2001. Centers for Disease Control, 2003.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/tables/2003/03hus047.pdf  

(5)   Consumer Product Safety Commission settlement against Daisy Manufacturing.
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml04/04033stratton.pdf.  This paper shows the chilling potential if Boxer’s dream comes true.

(6)   Gun Facts, Version 3.3, page 14, Guy Smith, 2003. Go to http://www.gunfacts.info/ and select the format you prefer.

(7)   NRA Armed Citizen Archives
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx
Stories of armed citizens who halted or prevented crime.

(8)   Victim Costs and Consequences: A New Look, Miller, Cohen, Wiersema. National Institute of Justice Research Report, US Department of Justice, January, 1996. http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/victcost.pdf

(9)   Death rates for suicide, according to sex, race, Hispanic origin, and age: United States, selected years 1950–2001. Centers for Disease Control, 2003.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/tables/2003/03hus046.pdf

(10)_______Butterflies, a memorial to children who died in Holocaust. Tim Bullard, The New Catholic Miscellany, Copyright 1997-98.
http://www.catholic-doc.org/miscellany/1998/0498-hol.html

(11)_______Reunion of the One Thousand Children. Veronica Gonzalez, Chicago Tribune, Copyright 2002.
http://www.onethousandchildren.org/pages/629543/index.htm

(12)_______Regulations Against Jews Possession of Weapons
http://www.jpfo.org/NaziLawEnglish.htm

                                                               ***

Howard Nemerov is a Bay Area freelance writer who receives e-mail at: hnemerov@netvista.net.

Copyright © 2004 ChronWatch. All rights reserved.
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TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California; US: District of Columbia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: banglist; boxer; children; guncontrol
This is an updated version here.

This is its URL:

http://michnews.com/artman/publish/article_4734.shtml

It was very slow to link, linking once after multiples left clicks. For some reason, I can't copy and paste with the updated version. Does anyone understand why?

1 posted on 08/17/2004 11:04:58 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

I put it to soccer moms like this: "If it is okay for bank guards to carry guns to protect someone's money, why is it wrong for me to carry a gun to protect my children's lives?"


I own guns. It's for the children.


2 posted on 08/17/2004 11:11:48 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn't be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: neverdem

Why do liberals like Boxer want to talk about protecting children when gun control is the topic, but not when it's abortion?


3 posted on 08/17/2004 11:13:05 AM PDT by Spok
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To: neverdem

Yes boxer breath, We need to teach the Children- proper firearm safety, use and that gun control means hitting the proper target with the first shot to avoid ammo waste.


4 posted on 08/17/2004 11:19:32 AM PDT by ChefKeith (Life is GREAT with CoCo..........NASCAR...everything else is just a game!(Except War & Love))
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To: kjenerette; Van Jenerette

...issue files.


5 posted on 08/17/2004 11:20:17 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (U.S. Army 1967-1991 - Infantry OCS Hall of Fame)
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To: basil; PistolPaknMama; dbwz

6 posted on 08/17/2004 11:26:59 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama (Can The Ban - let the AWB sunset www.2asisters.org www.cantheban.net)
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To: Spok

Excellent point!


7 posted on 08/17/2004 11:31:55 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Eaker; TexasCowboy; Squantos

Interesting ping.


8 posted on 08/17/2004 11:37:58 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: neverdem

He has one of those javascript no-right-click scripts on the page. That's why you couldn't right-click and copy it. What you can do is Edit, Select All, then Edit, Copy, then paste it into Notepad and copy the applicable text, like this:

Gun Control For the Children?
By Howard Nemerov
Aug 16, 2004

I am constantly amazed at the emotional highjacking and moral posturing of gun controllers. Gun controllers are lying when they say they have children’s interests at heart; they are merely using children to promote their goal of civilian disarmament.

As I live in California, we will examine the behavior of Senator Barbara Boxer, though you may find similar examples in your state as well. Senator Boxer sent me an email entitled “Protecting Our Children.” I have included the text, one paragraph at a time, to better understand the insanity and bigotry of a gun controller’s mind.

“An estimated 3.3 million children in the United States live in houses with guns. In most cases, those guns have so little trigger resistance they could be fired by a 3-year-old. The potential for tragedy is overwhelming, and we need to act to diminish this threat to children. Child safety locks are an easy and inexpensive way to make our children safer. I recently introduced the “Child Safety Device Act of 2004” to make these locks mandatory on manufacturer and dealer sales of handguns.”

Notice the fear-mongering, followed by the standard rant of “we need to act.” Let’s not take time to think, let’s just do something to make us feel better about ourselves as caring individuals.

“Potential for tragedy” means that there has not yet been tragedy. Should we get rid of cars because they have a potential to mow down 50 farmers market customers at a time? (1) Should we illegalize bath tubs and buckets because they kill more children each year than guns? (2)

Over 70 million additional civilian firearms have been sold since 1990 (3), yet the firearm death rate for children under 15 has dropped 60%. (4) With all those children living in homes containing firearms, if Boxer assumed correctly, the death rate should be much higher for children.

“My legislation would require gun retailers to provide locking devices with any handgun they sell, and direct the Consumer Product Safety Commission to create a consumer product safety standard for the locking devices which ensures they are sufficiently protective and prevent discharge of the handgun unless the device has been removed.”

Barbara, why do you want to make firearms more expensive and less affordable to poorer folks who live in inner cities, where there are generally higher crime rates? How are they to defend their children against violent predators? A gun lock may be “inexpensive” to you, but that is not the case for the little people you profess to care so much for.

Another one of Boxer’s “reasonable gun control” steps towards confiscation, this bill would begin to put gun regulation into the hands of three politically-appointed bureaucrats who could regulate civilian firearms out of existence.(5) Their product safety standards could make it impossible for civilians to own firearms. Ignoring the legal precedent of innocent until proven guilty, Boxer seeks to circumvent due process and legislative representation, and uses children to promote gun confiscation.

“In 2000, more than nine young people aged 19 and under were killed each day in gun homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings in the United States. 1,776 children and teenagers were murdered with guns, 1,007 committed suicide with guns, and 193 died in unintentional shootings. A recent Johns Hopkins study found that 44 percent of deaths could have been prevented with the use of safety devices.”

Let’s take square aim at the crown jewel of gun control. You will often hear the mantra “nine (up to 13) kids a day” as if it is sacred truth. It creates a vision of plaid-shirted goon squads mowing school children down like some sort of absurd horror story come to life.

Notice how she fudges and uses the phrase “children and teenagers.” Guy Smith does an excellent job debunking this myth about children and guns in his research paper entitled Gun Facts. (6) When you subtract adults, criminals, and suicides, you end up with less than one child per day dying from guns. Contrast this with 13 children a day dying in cars, or four from parental abuse and neglect. These are all horrible tragedies, but Barbara, if you truly cared about children’s lives more than your own chances for reelection, wouldn’t your energies be better spent banning cars and parents?

The vast majority of these “young people” are criminals shot while engaged in illegal activity. They illegally own guns, and any new regulation would not impact this fact, while law-abiding citizens would own fewer for personal protection. This will drive up crime, as we won’t be able to defend ourselves from predators like the ones Boxer weeps over.

Unlike Boxer’s contrived concern aimed at pandering to her anti-gun constituency, armed citizens show incredible self-discipline when attacked by teenage predators. The vast majority of armed confrontations during commission of a crime result in the armed citizen holding criminals until the police arrive. (7)

This gets to another part of the equation ignored by gun controllers: the cost of not owning a gun for self-defense. Citizens who avoid becoming crime victims often save not only their lives, but their businesses which represent significant contribution to our economy. By virtue of their age and “occupation,” teenage criminals have contributed nothing. Armed citizens have saved our country billions of dollars in health care, insurance claims, and business infrastructure. (8)

While gun ownership has risen, the suicide rate for children has dropped. (9) It is fascinating to note that the child suicide rate was lowest prior to the 1968 Gun Control Act, which banned children from purchasing guns.

“As a U.S. Senator, I have worked hard to keep guns out of the hands of our children, out of our schools, and off the streets. This legislation ensures that guns that are purchased in the future can be safely secured.”

Meaning, taken away from you, thereby giving the government absolute power over your sorry lives. You are incompetent and stupid, and I don’t trust you. “Safely secured” means owned exclusively by the government.

Let us contrast this with another, extremely successful example of gun control. Between 1.2 and 1.5 million children died during the Holocaust, most of them Jews. (10,11) In 1938, Hitler, one of the world’s foremost experts on gun control, enacted gun laws that forbade Jews from owning firearms. (12) When the Nazis came to round them up, parents had no way to protect their children.

It took Hitler about six years to murder an average of 550 kids per day. (We haven’t even included all the children murdered by other world-famous gun control experts like Stalin and Mao.) Compare this with less than one per day in our free society, or even Boxer’s 9 per day, as if gang-bangers won’t kill each other without guns. At today’s death rates for the entire country, it would take over 60 years equal what Hitler did to only one segment of society, according to Boxer’s estimate. If compared to the accidental death rate for children, it would take over 1,000 years. This does not factor in the nearly tripled world population since 1940, so it may be closer to 3,000 years.

Barbara, how can you possibly consider doing again to your people what history has shown to be the road to Hitler’s Final Solution?

Footnotes

(1) Infant Dies After Santa Monica Farmers’ Market Crash. NBC4 TV News, July 17, 2003. http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2337407/detail.html

(2) Gun Facts, Version 3.3. Guy Smith, 2003, page 188. Go to http://www.gunfacts.info/ and select the format you prefer. Quoted here: statistics from CDC, 1999.

(3) Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/
firearmscommerce/firearmscommerce.pdf

(4) Table 47 (page 1 of 3). Death rates for firearm-related injuries, according to sex, race, Hispanic origin, and age: United States, selected years 1970–2001. Centers for Disease Control, 2003.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/tables/2003/03hus047.pdf

(5) Consumer Product Safety Commission settlement against Daisy Manufacturing.
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/
prhtml04/04033stratton.pdf. This paper shows the chilling potential if Boxer’s dream comes true.

(6) Gun Facts, Version 3.3, page 14, Guy Smith, 2003. Go to http://www.gunfacts.info/ and select the format you prefer.

(7) NRA Armed Citizen Archives
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx
Stories of armed citizens who halted or prevented crime.

(8) Victim Costs and Consequences: A New Look, Miller, Cohen, Wiersema. National Institute of Justice Research Report, US Department of Justice, January, 1996. http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/victcost.pdf

(9) Death rates for suicide, according to sex, race, Hispanic origin, and age: United States, selected years 1950–2001. Centers for Disease Control, 2003.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/tables/2003/03hus046.pdf

(10) Butterflies a memorial to children who died in Holocaust. Tim Bullard, The New Catholic Miscellany, Copyright 1997-98.
http://www.catholic-doc.org/miscellany/1998/0498-hol.html

(11) Reunion of the One Thousand Children. Veronica Gonzalez, Chicago Tribune, Copyright 2002.
http://www.onethousandchildren.org/pages/629543/index.htm

(12) Regulations Against Jews Possession of Weapons
http://www.jpfo.org/NaziLawEnglish.htm

------
Former gun control proponent Howard Nemerov does his own research. He is now an ardent Second Amendment supporter, who wonders why gun control groups consistently lie in order to advance their agenda. He appears regularly on ChronWatch and is a frequent contributor to NRA News.


9 posted on 08/17/2004 11:41:30 AM PDT by Tarantulas
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To: neverdem
My 14 year daughter has better gun control than I do.

Especially in .22 cal.

10 posted on 08/17/2004 11:44:53 AM PDT by freedomlover
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To: neverdem
The problem is that the whole issue of gun control is centered on the wrong issues. Guns and their proliferation are not the issue, and never have been. IIRC the gun crime rate was far lower, back in the days when you could order firearms through the mail, than it is now, when you can't order them through the mail.

Something else is going on, as we well know.

The real issue is the proliferation of the sorts of people who will use guns to commit crimes. IOW, it is a cultural issue, not a legal one. We have a culture that celebrates bad manners and provides excuses for bad, even criminal, behavior. In many ways our culture actually feeds the production of gun criminals.

We cannot win a legalistic debate with the gun grabbers until we shift the focus to the people who commit crimes. Not only will it bring sanity to the issue of guns, but it will carry over into the broader political/cultural debate as well.

11 posted on 08/17/2004 11:45:34 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Blood of Tyrants
''An estimated 3.3 million children in the United States live in houses with guns. In most cases, those guns have so little trigger resistance they could be fired by a 3-year-old.

Then why aren't THOUSANDS dying everyday?

You have greater worries with the family car. Why not ban everything that might hurt someone/something SOME DAY?

This scare tactic brought to you by the same people who won't let Eddie Eagle gun safety in our schools. So, tell me....what are these banners REALLY concerned with?

12 posted on 08/17/2004 11:52:49 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: neverdem
Note that the Daisy case cited is not for injury from a bb gun that fired when it should not (or should) have -- but for failure to fire.

Since when was anyone ever injured by a bb gun that did not shoot?

Talk about a "nuisance suit"!

13 posted on 08/17/2004 11:55:32 AM PDT by TXnMA
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To: neverdem

A gun lock can easily be the most expensive purchase in anyone's life. All you need is a home invader, like Richard Speck going after the nurses, and a gun lock that can't be removed in time to use the gun. My guns are either loaded and readily available or locked in a gun safe.


14 posted on 08/17/2004 12:02:58 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: Tarantulas; fourdeuce82d; Travis McGee; Joe Brower; El Gato; DMZFrank; ALOHA RONNIE; Squantos; ...

Thanks a lot as I never could figure out what was happening when those "notepads" appeared. Bookmarked. Thanks again!


15 posted on 08/17/2004 12:14:57 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: r9etb

I guess that's why gun control is a major part of the "culture war".


16 posted on 08/17/2004 12:22:50 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
An estimated 3.3 million children in the United States live in houses with guns.

I think that Boxer lost a decimal point somewhere. Given the lack of regard that the anti-gunners have for actual facts, this is not surprising.

Let's take a closer look: If 70 million guns were sold - just since 1990, mind you - and if only every third person that bought guns had kids in the house, then they would each had to have purchased about 7.1 guns per kid if only 3.3 million kids lived in homes with guns. I have a bunch of guns, and I'm even a bit of a collector, but I still don't have 7 guns per kid (though, thinking about it, that's a worthy goal to shoot for - pun intended).

Nope, I think that we're talking about 33 million kids, minimum. Remember that there weren't 0 guns in existence before 1990 (I know this for certain, as I had 2 before then, and I know a bunch of people who had a bunch more than I did at the time), so there are considerably more than 70 million guns out there. Actually, the better figure to use is the number of gun owners, which is now probably at least 80 million, and perhaps as much as 90 million. If only 1 in 3 of them had children in the home (i.e. those between 0 and 18 years of age), then there would be 30 million households with guns. Since people tend to have an average of 2.1 kids each (or something of that magnitude), then somewhere north of 60 million kids live in homes with guns...which makes the very small numbers of deaths among children a far more remarkable fact (though, to be sure, no less of a tragedy for each family involved).

Of course, it wouldn't be convenient for Babbling Barbara to stick to the facts, because the facts show that American gun owners are quite safe and quite non-violent on average, a fact which flies in the face of the stereotype that the anti-gun scumbags like to spread around.

I'll say it YET again: Eff them, eff them all!

17 posted on 08/17/2004 12:29:55 PM PDT by Ancesthntr
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To: neverdem
I guess that's why gun control is a major part of the "culture war".

It is for them, but the sad truth is that it's really not a part of the battle for us. We're still focused on keeping guns for ourselves (not a bad thing, of course).

The problem is, we leave ourselves with no good way to address the occasional mass shooting, because our focus on "having guns" plays right into their claims that "not having guns" will prevent such crimes. (Yeah, we know it's a bogus claim, but it resonates with a lot of folks.)

We're not addressing the fact that there are a lot of bad guys out there who shouldn't have guns. If we don't want gun control, then we've got to focus on bad guy control. We need to shift the grounds of the debate to the bad guys vs. "law abiding citizens." Once you've done that, chunks of machined metal are a far less viable target for them.

18 posted on 08/17/2004 12:36:16 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: neverdem

19 posted on 08/17/2004 12:46:35 PM PDT by JoJo Gunn (Help control the Leftist population - have them spayed or neutered.)
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To: neverdem

I go along with keeping guns off the street, I wouldn't want any of mine bouncing off of asphalt or concrete.

I love it when they include suicide firearm deaths, like a sick teen couldn't find some other way to kill himself like a toaster oven hot tub, etc. In Japan teen suicide rates are higher with no access to guns.


20 posted on 08/17/2004 12:59:38 PM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: r9etb
I don't know how you change the culture when the hard left has effective control of the main stream media, the entertainment industry and most of education.

From a legal angle, we have, or had at least until recently, mandatory mininmum sentencing guidelines, three strikes you're out laws, and the war on drugs. However, if you read Joel Miller, the war on drugs is a big reason for the war on guns. I'm inclined to agree.

21 posted on 08/17/2004 1:18:32 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: JoJo Gunn; r9etb

LOL, the sign on the right says it all about the culture war. What dimwits!


22 posted on 08/17/2004 1:23:10 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
I don't know how you change the culture when the hard left has effective control of the main stream media, the entertainment industry and most of education.

For one thing, you've got to do it patiently -- like the left did. We keep expecting that THIS tactic, or THAT tactic, will suddenly make the left collapse. That's unrealistic.

You don't change the culture overnight. You have to build up to it over decades. The only way to do it is to be honest and clear, and to be dedicated to a long-term program to change the culture (like the left is).

Know and understand what we believe, and don't equivocate on what is true.

Be honest about the merits of the other side's arguments, and be honest about the weaknesses of our own arguments. People may not have thought about your position much at all -- but they tend to have uncomfortably good BS sensors.

Finally, be diplomatic and above reproach. The truth presented with a bad attitude is far less attractive than a lie presented by a golden tongue.

23 posted on 08/17/2004 1:33:54 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: TC Rider
TC Rider said: "I love it when they include suicide firearm deaths, like a sick teen couldn't find some other way to kill himself like a toaster oven hot tub, etc."

And there is great reason to believe that many elderly men off themselves with firearms but this is typically reported as an accident, while cleaning the firearm.

24 posted on 08/17/2004 1:36:13 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: neverdem

It certainly does speak volumes, doesn't it?


25 posted on 08/17/2004 1:47:51 PM PDT by JoJo Gunn (Help control the Leftist population - have them spayed or neutered.)
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To: neverdem

it's too bad Bush agrees with Feinstein and has promised to sign this if it passes. Oh, but i suppose we aren't supposed to 'mention' that 'pesky fact. lol. pathetic.


26 posted on 08/17/2004 2:38:44 PM PDT by MindFire
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To: neverdem
This is a good article, but the facts listed therein will never trump the emotionalism of the gun-grabber's argument.

No...in order to beat the Liberals at their game, we have to push their tactics back in their own faces.

For instance, the Leftists always insist that sex education is vital so that children can make "informed decisions" about sexual relations with their fellow child classmates. Well, with that sort of rationale, then surely the Liberals won't object to mandatory firearms training so that these same children can make "informed decisions" about firearms, right?

It's time we beat the Leftists at their own game. And to do that, we're going to have to make them either concede or backtrack. Either way is a win for our side.


27 posted on 08/17/2004 2:53:46 PM PDT by Prime Choice (I remember when John Kerry last lied to us. It is seared into my mind.)
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To: neverdem

"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson


28 posted on 08/17/2004 4:15:10 PM PDT by take
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To: neverdem

Bookmarked, thank you very much.

And I own guns "for my Children" as well.


29 posted on 08/17/2004 4:47:52 PM PDT by Jaguar1942
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To: neverdem
My feelings are hurt because I didn't get copied on this message from Boxer. She must be pissed because of some of my messages to her re her positions on gun rights. Check out this message I got from Frist the other day.

Thank you for contacting me to express your thoughts on the semi-automatic assault weapon ban. It is an honor to serve you in the Senate and a privilege to respond to your concerns. Gun control is a controversial issue. People acting in good faith will very often disagree on the most effective way to address violent crime while recognizing the rights of law abiding gun owners, and I respect the diversity of views on this important matter. I have long believed that further federal regulation of gun ownership is not the best answer to preventing violent crime, and I am a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. Our enemy is the criminal, not the weapon. A person intent on committing a violent crime will not be stopped by more gun control laws. Instead, Congress and the States should work to ensure that violent crimes are vigorously prosecuted, to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and to better enforce our existing laws. Through this common sense approach, we can continue to reduce violent crime across the nation and protect the rights of law abiding gun owners. Again, thank you for contacting me. As the Senate continues to face many complex and challenging issues, I hope you will continue to give me the benefit of your thoughts and advice.

Sincerely, William H. Frist, M.D. Majority Leader United States Senate

I like his position a lot more

30 posted on 08/17/2004 5:00:10 PM PDT by paul51
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