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Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Washington Post ^ | 8/19/04 | Michael Dobbs

Posted on 08/18/2004 8:24:34 PM PDT by Callahan

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: foia; kerry; larrythurlow; michaeldobbs; militaryrecord; swiftboatveterans; swiftboatvets; thurlow; wp
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Damn. This is definitely the biggest hit the Swifties have taken so far. More than enough to get the rest of the MSM to continue to ignore the story. Interesting that the WP went to lengths to get Thurlow's records, but fail to mention that Kerry won't release the rest of his.
1 posted on 08/18/2004 8:24:36 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: Callahan

Of course, this only concerns one allegation. When they do bother to cover this stuff, the media has a habit of conflating everything the Swifties say instead of taking their charges one by one.


2 posted on 08/18/2004 8:26:04 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: Callahan

How can they Thurlow's records and not be able to get Kerry's?


3 posted on 08/18/2004 8:26:35 PM PDT by motherof 3
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To: Callahan

The Kerry campaign just got a new talking point.


4 posted on 08/18/2004 8:26:44 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: Callahan

Or gave.


5 posted on 08/18/2004 8:28:21 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Callahan

Not good, and the mainstream press will leap all over this. Even though it's not fair and we know the bulk of the story is accruate, they're going to pound away at this forever. It's likely everyone will eventually have to move on to other issues related to Kerry.


6 posted on 08/18/2004 8:28:32 PM PDT by Numbers Guy
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To: Callahan

I thought Kerry's own after-action report did not mention enemy fire?


7 posted on 08/18/2004 8:29:30 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Callahan
Interesting that the WP went to lengths to get Thurlow's records, but fail to mention that Kerry won't release the rest of his.

More proof of the media bias. Its a chink in the armor, but not fatal to the point of the UFC book in my opinion.

8 posted on 08/18/2004 8:29:31 PM PDT by Lawgvr1955 (Kerry: Gruber from McHale's Navy TV - Always after a Purple Heart)
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To: Numbers Guy

Why would Thurlow lie about something that denigrates his own medal. There has to be more to this.


9 posted on 08/18/2004 8:30:34 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: Callahan
Most of these guys never even saw the after action report which Kerry wrote.

From the article:

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

10 posted on 08/18/2004 8:31:04 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Proud to be a Reagan Republican)
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To: Callahan

Read article at Yahoo, no registration:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20040819/pl_washpost/a13267_2004aug18

It shows the hypocrisy of the media, they are going after the records of others, instead of demanding that Kerry release his records.

"Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act"

Why doesn't the FOIA apply to Kerry's records?


11 posted on 08/18/2004 8:31:27 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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To: Lawgvr1955

THis isn't so bad, Kerry's lies went everywhere. See the hurt that he has caused again>


12 posted on 08/18/2004 8:32:12 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: Callahan
This actually supports the case against Kerry

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting." Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation."

13 posted on 08/18/2004 8:32:32 PM PDT by spycatcher
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To: Callahan

This is actually very minor, the WP is just blowing it totally out of proportion and obfuscating the events.


14 posted on 08/18/2004 8:32:36 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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To: NavySEAL F-16

Military people fill me in. Would he see the citation before hand? Who writes it?


15 posted on 08/18/2004 8:32:44 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: Callahan

Kerry suggests that the word of Vietnam Vet is, by that fact alone, is something special.OK, I'll accept that, to some degree. But doesn't that make all Vietnam veterans and their claims of equal dignity? I would think so.


16 posted on 08/18/2004 8:32:52 PM PDT by Wally_Kalbacken
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To: Callahan
YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

17 posted on 08/18/2004 8:32:56 PM PDT by Steven W.
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To: Callahan
Why would Thurlow lie about something that denigrates his own medal. There has to be more to this.

I agree completely, but the problem is that how we react to it will be far different from how the mainstream press reacts to it. Now that they have a talking point to discredit the story, they'll ram it down everyone's throats for the next few days.

18 posted on 08/18/2004 8:33:00 PM PDT by Numbers Guy
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To: Callahan
Gee, Kerry has to revise his Apocalypse Now tale of travelling into Cambodia and we can still trust him to tell the truth. Someone else is contradicted by a citation he didn't write so I guess everything they are saying is lies, right? No, no bias in the press.
19 posted on 08/18/2004 8:33:14 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Numbers Guy

No, this is good.
Instead of the MSM hiding it, they will go on the attack. The SBVTs are organized. They have pulled all the FOI documents they could before going after Kerry. They will have also put all their records together.
Several of these guys went to Annapolis. They think deeper than the MSM. They were getting ignored, so now the WaPo is talking about them.
Sort of like a trap for Charlie.


20 posted on 08/18/2004 8:33:26 PM PDT by ProudVet77 (So many questions for Kerry - so few answers from Kerry)
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To: Callahan

How do you know he lied. Unless he wrote the after action report, nothing he has said about the events that day is contridicted here. If Kerry wrote the after action report, and said they were fired on, but no one else remembers them being fired at, than either Kerry remembers something they don't, or Kerry lied.


21 posted on 08/18/2004 8:33:36 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Lawgvr1955
I haven't followed the MSM coverage closely. Is this the biggest headline the Washington Post has come out with? Because I think it is definitely proof of bias when an unfavorable expose is decidedly framed by mitigating information.
22 posted on 08/18/2004 8:33:39 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Callahan
Well, it didn't take long to get this military record out, but greater than a year into the presidential campaign Kerry still won't release his.

Oh, and I question the timing of this.

23 posted on 08/18/2004 8:34:07 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: Numbers Guy

Has Kerry's after action report been released? If not why not?


24 posted on 08/18/2004 8:34:08 PM PDT by Texasforever (God can send you to hell but he can't sue you. He can't find a lawyer.)
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To: Steven W.

The military susally reads the citation to you when they present the medal to you.


25 posted on 08/18/2004 8:34:20 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: Callahan

Paragraph after paragraph from the Wash ComPost in the effort to denigrate Thurlow but nary an objective comment about sKerry nor mention of the many other Swifties and their allegations.

The attack on the messengers continue while the bad guy gets to keep riding on his horse.

Prairie


26 posted on 08/18/2004 8:34:44 PM PDT by prairiebreeze (John Kerry's new theme song: "Ohh-ho, yes! I'm the Great Pretender...ooh,ooh")
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To: Callahan

Worst case, for the record, let's throw out that one allegation against Kerry.

How are they going to disprove the other several dozen?


27 posted on 08/18/2004 8:35:09 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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To: Callahan
"Would he see the citation before hand? Who writes it?"

No, and it depends.

28 posted on 08/18/2004 8:35:39 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Callahan

The record is of Thurlow's Silver Star citation. Unlike Kerry, Thurlow did not author his own document. He still contends that the reference to small arms fire originated from Kerry.


29 posted on 08/18/2004 8:35:43 PM PDT by the_Watchman
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To: spycatcher

Who wrote the citation??? I have a feeling that the WaPo ever decides to go after Kerry's records and not just his critics, we'll find that he was acting as his own hagiographer. I'll hang on for more. The last time the Swifties took a hit from the Boston Globe, there was more to it.


30 posted on 08/18/2004 8:35:52 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: ImaTexan

ping


31 posted on 08/18/2004 8:35:57 PM PDT by bjcintennessee (Don't Sweat the Small Stuff)
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To: Viet-Boat-Rider

These poor military guys are getting beat up, just because they want to do the right thing.


32 posted on 08/18/2004 8:36:12 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: Callahan
Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969

I thought the Swifties were mainly disputing the first Purple Heart, from Dec. 2, 1968, which Kerry got for supposedly getting a shard of his own M-79 casing in his arm.

Until I read the fricking Unfit for Command book, I will continue to be confused.

WHERE can I buy a book? The local stores don't have it, and I'm not sure how long it will take Amazon to ship via mail.

33 posted on 08/18/2004 8:36:43 PM PDT by Edit35
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To: Rokke
So I guess the Washington Post supports this then:

Judicial Watch Calls For Investigation Into Kerry’s Medals, Anti-War Actions

34 posted on 08/18/2004 8:37:03 PM PDT by spycatcher
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To: Callahan

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first story the Post has done about this whole affair? Speaks rather ill of them, it seems to me...


35 posted on 08/18/2004 8:37:05 PM PDT by ArcLight
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To: NutCrackerBoy

The MSM's whole response seems to attack the word of the Swiftees for Truth and give Kerry a pass. Business as usual.


36 posted on 08/18/2004 8:37:16 PM PDT by Lawgvr1955 (Kerry: Gruber from McHale's Navy TV - Always after a Purple Heart)
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To: FairOpinion

Kerry is protected from FOIA by FFIA.


37 posted on 08/18/2004 8:37:29 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but have recently come to my senses.)
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To: Interesting Times

ping


38 posted on 08/18/2004 8:37:32 PM PDT by prairiebreeze (John Kerry's new theme song: "Ohh-ho, yes! I'm the Great Pretender...ooh,ooh")
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To: Callahan
Yeah...but you know what...

The media just confirmed that these guys served with Kerry. Shot down one of the Kerry campaign's objections, and they didn't even realize it!!!

39 posted on 08/18/2004 8:37:59 PM PDT by Fredgoblu
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To: Callahan
Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Ok, if they can get this guys records without his permission, why can't they get Kerry's? And I wouldn't be too surprised if Kerry was involved in getting the 'under small arms fire' added to the report.

40 posted on 08/18/2004 8:38:02 PM PDT by yhwhsman ("Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small..." -Sir Winston Churchill)
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To: Viet-Boat-Rider

All news is good because it keeps talkin about the swift boat vets do you know how much these ads would of cost otherwise.People can read and they no know something smells fishy W2004


41 posted on 08/18/2004 8:38:09 PM PDT by italianquaker
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To: MojoWire

I got notified by Amizon that my book shipped today.


42 posted on 08/18/2004 8:38:09 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: Steven W.

Has not seen the citation before? How do you get a medal and not know what it's for. He had to know this existed?


43 posted on 08/18/2004 8:38:14 PM PDT by Callahan
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To: Callahan; Numbers Guy

No, I think the language in Thurlow's military records is consistent with all prior statements from the Swift Vets. One of John O'Neill's strongest accusations against Kerry is that he lied to get his medals: he deliberately provided false after-action reports to his commanding officers on a number of occasions. This story by the Post will probably get Kerry into even more trouble, because it will focus attention on the false reports he provided to his superior officers. Not to worry about this. What a tangled web we weave....


44 posted on 08/18/2004 8:38:52 PM PDT by carl in alaska (Suddenly the raven on Scalia's shoulder stirred and spoke. Quoth the raven..."NeverGore")
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To: the_Watchman
NONE OF THE BOATS HAD ANY BULLET HOLES!
45 posted on 08/18/2004 8:39:00 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Proud to be a Reagan Republican)
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To: FairOpinion

It also keeps the story alive...


46 posted on 08/18/2004 8:39:07 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: Viet-Boat-Rider
yes this is a hit from the Kerry campaign - they gave reporter the doc they wanted him to find (and which Kerry had written the officer up for, behind his back & unbeknownst to him)

Listen here - half way down the page on the right

Gardner came back from DC with a situation report (SITREP) from the Navy archives for the incident with the sampan. Kerry declared there were 4 enemy who "jumped off the boat and ran ashore" in addition to those KIA. He also declared the small boat (30' long canoe like) had 5500 LBS of contraband (meaning the weight of a good size automobile).

Some enterprising blogger might follow the Compost example and file for other relevant docs via FOIA:

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

47 posted on 08/18/2004 8:39:22 PM PDT by Steven W.
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To: Callahan

Further proof of the media bias is the great silence about Kerry's own diary stating that he had yet to have faced hostile fire written after his first supposed Purple Heart.


48 posted on 08/18/2004 8:39:41 PM PDT by Lawgvr1955 (Kerry: Gruber from McHale's Navy TV - Always after a Purple Heart)
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To: Callahan
This isn't a hit - it's a score: Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

The confusion was when the PCF3 hit the mine, SOP called for the other boats to open fire to the banks - which they did... there was no enemy return fire. It probably sounded like they were under attack. John Kerry, meanwhile, was running away.

Thurlow admitted the fraud - will JFK? What will be the Kerry campaign response to this? I can't wait!

49 posted on 08/18/2004 8:40:19 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (When you think LIAR, TRAITOR, FRAUD or COWARD... think JOHN KERRY!)
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To: Callahan

The more I read it, the more it appears to be misdirection by the MSM.

There could be a very logical explanation, consistent with the story of the SwiftVets:

A mine hits one boat, the flotilla is fired upon, KERRY RUNS, then the firs stops, KERRY RETURNS and fishes the guy out of water, who fell in, precisely, because Kerry was running away so fast.


50 posted on 08/18/2004 8:40:38 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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