After Decades, Renewed War on Old Conflict

WashPost ^ | 8/28/04 | Michael Dobbs

[Timeout]

This is a long article, but it's full of news I never thought I'd see printed in the Washington Post. It's devastating. It depicts Kerry as duplicitous and calculating.

Snip:

According to FBI records first released to Nicosia, Kerry sometimes expressed fairly radical points of view. For example, he described North Vietnamese Communist leader Ho Chi Minh as "the George Washington of Vietnam." He also noted with some bitterness that out "of 234 congressmen's sons eligible for service in Vietnam, only 24 went there, and only one of them was wounded."

The FBI kept careful tabs on the protesters through a network of informers, who tracked Kerry's movements. The FBI records help to disprove a long-standing claim by Kerry that he resigned from the VVAW leadership in the summer of 1971, before the organization began to flirt with proposals for radical civil disobedience and even violence.

The FBI records show that Kerry was present for a particularly contentious meeting in Kansas City, Mo., in November 1971, at which plans were discussed for the assassination or kidnapping of government officials or the takeover of the Statue of Liberty....

It goes on to quote two vets who say it's not credible that Kerry wouldn't remember that day. Then comes Kerry boot licker Hurley to say it's totally understandable that he forgot about it (LOL!).

All in all, an amazing article to see on the front page of the WaPO....even if it IS the slowest news day of the week. :(

[Timeout]

Read the whole thing. I could've been written by a Freeper!

[Timeout]

Well, darn.

I...IT could've been written by a Freeper.

[VOA]

bump

[Keith in Iowa]

The WaCommiePost printed that?

Yikes! We need to be on the lookout for wing-ed swine! And they must be getting ready for hockey exhabition in Hades!

[68skylark]

he described North Vietnamese Communist leader Ho Chi Minh as "the George Washington of Vietnam."

Does the Washington Post reporter think there is anything wrong with this opinion? Lots of people on the left think our enemies are as good (or much better) than our founding fathers.

[Semper Paratus]

the George Washington of Vietnam

That would make John Kerry the Ho Chi Minh of the United States.

[Boundless]

> Read the whole thing. I could've been written by a Freeper!

Read it. I disagree about the "could have".
But it's not very complementary to Kerry.

I just finished reading UFC, and there are
errors and omissions in the article.

Nonethless, the WP is (as usual) sending a message to
the Dem core.

The message is: "uh oh, our boy has a problem"

[Cboldt]

The debate ended without a decisive victory for either side. O'Neill accused Kerry of "the big lie," arguing that he had "murdered" the reputations of 2 1/2 million service members by accusing them of war crimes. Dressed in a well-cut blue suit, Kerry told the audience he had personally participated in "search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground" and asked O'Neill if he had ever "burned a village."

*bump*

Thanks for posting the link, timeout. Good article. The heat is still on, and slowing increasing.

[Steel Wolf]

"Hi, I'm John Kerry, the 'Ho Chi Minh' of the United States. My friends call me 'Che'."

[tuesday afternoon]

bump

[what's up]

Dobbs was very milquetoast in his last news-breaking article. I and many Freepers I am sure emailed him about his failure to interview the Swiftvets before his column.

Very happy to see an article from him slamming Kerry harder.

[sonofatpatcher2]

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[Timeout]

The "could have" was tongue-on-cheek. But this article leads me to think the WaPo is bulldogging this story. Who knows what else Dobbs is on to...he may just have Woodward/Bernstein visions dancing in his head.

Given the scrutiny, Kerry's cooked. His records won't sustain a thorough airing. Though the MediaCrats still haven't cried out for him to release everything, they certainly seem to be building up to it.

[MACVSOG68]

Did read the article, but you left out a very important piece related to the most significant snip you did. While I think the article was somewhat disparaging of Kerry, it was not anything the your "snips" showed, unfortunately.

The FBI records show that Kerry was present for a particularly contentious meeting in Kansas City, Mo., in November 1971, at which plans were discussed for the assassination or kidnapping of government officials or the takeover of the Statue of Liberty. The proposal was overwhelmingly voted down, and the files record that Kerry wanted VVAW "to stay strictly non-violent." According to the FBI files, he resigned from the organization in Kansas City after an angry showdown with radicals led by a firebrand named Al Hubbard.

[Timeout]

I don't get what you're saying.

The point isn't that the proposal was voted down. It's that Kerry lied for years when he said he'd resigned before the KC meeting and didn't attend it. His campaign only changed their story after the FBI reports came out.

[Zman516]

As stated in "Unfit For Command", pages 141-2: "...Close inspection of the FBI reports indicates that Kerry was present at the Kansas City meeting as a member of the VVAW executive committee. The FBI reported that Kerry told the steering committee that he planned to resign from the executive committee, but that he would continue to speak for the VVAW and that his resignation from the executive committee would not take effect until a replacement for him had been selected. The FBI file was clear that Kerry was resigning only from the executive comittee, not from the VVAW itself." Kerry has used the old Hellary trick of "not recalling" his being at the KC meeting.

[MACVSOG68]

I don't get what you're saying. The point isn't that the proposal was voted down. It's that Kerry lied for years when he said he'd resigned before the KC meeting and didn't attend it. His campaign only changed their story after the FBI reports came out

The point is that the wording you showed would give a reader the impression that the Washington Post was showing that Kerry was part of the planning for violence, but the rest of the sentence shows that the WP seems to be clearing him of any part of that.

If only the part you printed is the end of that statement, then your point about Kerry's forgetfulness is significant. If the part left out is included, then it makes Kerry look like some kind of principled, non-violent dissident who resigned rather than continue. Unfortunately it works in Kerry's favor, and his forgetfulness is not that important.

It's more in keeping with the Washington Post and its traditional sympathies.

[AaronInCarolina]

The proposal was overwhelmingly voted down, and the files record that Kerry wanted VVAW "to stay strictly non-violent." According to the FBI files, he resigned from the organization in Kansas City after an angry showdown with radicals led by a firebrand named Al Hubbard.

I truly don't know where this information comes from, because I read the VVAW surveillance document, a de-classified FBI document available at WinterSoldier.com. In that document, it describes the November 1971 meeting in Kansas City, and nowhere in it does it say "The proposal was overwhelmingly voted down" nor does it say anything about an "angry showdown with radicals". In fact, in both cases it says just the opposite. The document says that the proposal to create "Phoenix type" groups (political assassination groups) was "favorably received". And instead of any mention of Kerry having a showdown with radicals, it says nothing, except it goes on to describe subsequent VVAW meetings where Kerry continued to attend, including one where a huge block of marijuana was consumed by attendees. Here is a transcript of this section from the FBI document:

Page 191
November 1971 Meeting in Kansas City, Missouri (Kerry attended)
November 12 party at one of the member’s house

(transcript begins)
At the party, SCOT CAMIL, VVAW Regional Coordinator for (blacked out) and (blacked out) from Gainesville, Florida, bragged that he had a training range in either Florida or Georgia but would not divulge the location. CAMIL proposed the establishment of “readiness groups” of the “Phoenix type”. This proposal was made in the presence of (blacked out) VVAW Arkansas organizer (blacked out), all from Arkansas, (blacked out) the VVAW Regional Coordinator for Missouri and Kansas, and a delegate from Montana, and three delegates from St. Louis, names unknown. When asked if CAMIL meant “Phoenix type” in the same context as understood by military personnel, CAMIL answered in the affirmative and outlined a plan for “political elimination” of the “government chain of command”. The “Phoenix type” is a military term given to groups with specific assassination assignments and the delegates knew that CAMIL meant political assassinations rather than political eliminations. CAMIL said the activities would depend upon the men being devoted enough to carry out their assignments. CAMIL said that even talking and planning such activities was against the law and therefore the “Phoenix type” groups should carry out their assignments. CAMIL said he had training ranges for rifle, pistol and mortar practice. He claimed he had rifles, pistols and rifle grenades, but no mortars. CAMIL’s proposal for the “readiness squads” and the training was favorably received by many of the persons present and was thereafter quietly disseminated to those at the party. CAMIL indicated he was already conducting his own training program.
(transcript ends)

[MACVSOG68]

I truly don't know where this information comes from, because I read the VVAW surveillance document, a de-classified FBI document available at WinterSoldier.com. In that document, it describes the November 1971 meeting in Kansas City, and nowhere in it does it say "The proposal was overwhelmingly voted down" nor does it say anything about an "angry showdown with radicals".

I'm not arguing that at all. I merely pointed out that the Washington Post article from which the post you reference was taken, was used to paint a favorable picture of Kerry. When I first read this thread, I thought, as did others, that the Washington Post was, for once, showing a bit of balance. After reading the full article however, it looks more like their traditional spin than anything resembling balance.

Having said that, it does appear that Kerry's post Vietnam activities are now coming to light even in the MSM, and that is good, balance or no balance.

[AaronInCarolina]

I'm not arguing that at all. I merely pointed out that the Washington Post article from which the post you reference was taken, was used to paint a favorable picture of Kerry. When I first read this thread, I thought, as did others, that the Washington Post was, for once, showing a bit of balance. After reading the full article however, it looks more like their traditional spin than anything resembling balance.

Having said that, it does appear that Kerry's post Vietnam activities are now coming to light even in the MSM, and that is good, balance or no balance.

I'm sorry if my post came off sounding like I was disputing anything you had posted. My whole point was to challenge the apparent reference in the WaPo article to the proposal being "overwhelmingly voted down", when the parts of the document I read don't indicate that. In the past few minutes, I have gone back and began scouring the document again to see if there was something in it that I missed. It is a rather large document, and is a compilation of a lot of reports that are not always in chronological order. I did find a page that talked about how in December of 1971, Scott Camil (who was the main proponent of the assassination plot) was basically told to not associate with national VVAW group anymore, although apparently he then planned on continuing with his own splinter VVAW local group. I still have not found where the proposal was overwhelmingly voted down or where Kerry had "an angry showdown" with radicals (presumably Scott Camil. I'll keep looking.

[MACVSOG68]

No problem. Keep looking, and let's hope the MSM gets the smell of blood, because as partisan as they are, they just can't keep away from red meat! It works something like this: Freepers find something good, or authors like O'Neill put out a book. Then Hannity, Rush, and Laura Ingraham get a hold of it. After a couple of days, FoxNews starts putting it out for discussion on the morning shows and ultimately Brit Hume. At that point the rest of the MSM either ignores it and loses audience or grabs a piece of the meat. Now at this point, Kerry is in full defensive posture.

The media keeps saying that the President needs to get away from Vietnam and talk about today's issues, and then you look at a typical Kerry campaign stop (like today) and you see Rassman talking about how Kerry is the right man to protect his back. Then Kerry or someone else wonders out loud where Bush was during Vietnam. Then they wrap it up by again complaining that this campaign is not about Vietnam, but jobs, etc. But the pressure must be kept on Kerry.

One or two a week is all it takes!

[AaronInCarolina]

On page 194 of the PDF document: Section 11.pdf it does say that the Agenda Committee met again for one hour where Scot Camil proposed his "readiness squads". The Agenda Committee would not allow Scot Camil to propose it to the general meeting later that day, but did decide to place his proposal on the agenda for the Spring meeting in February 1972.

[MACVSOG68]

On page 194 of the PDF document: Section 11.pdf it does say that the Agenda Committee met again for one hour where Scot Camil proposed his "readiness squads". The Agenda Committee would not allow Scot Camil to propose it to the general meeting later that day, but did decide to place his proposal on the agenda for the Spring meeting in February 1972

That's important that it wasn't tabled, just postponed. Hope Hannity's reading FR!

[AaronInCarolina]

There's some really damning stuff in that document that may be as potentially embarassing as the political assassination stuff. At that same November steering committee meeting, the Wisconsin delegation proposed a plan to encourage 2000 American GI's in South Vietnam to engage in "mutinous acts" of rebellion by refusing to take up arms. The spectre that this creates is one of a national leader of a quasi-terrorist group seeking 3 decades later to be commander-in-chief of the very military services within which his organization advocated mutiny in the ranks. This was on PDF page 193 of the section 11 FBI document.

FBI Document Section 11

(transcript begins)
The Wisconsin delegation proposed a plan to contact 2,000 active-duty GI’s in South Vietnam and in effect ask them for a mutinous action by refusing to take up arms when ordered to do so. This proposal was favorably accepted by the committee.
(transcript ends)

[AmericanVictory]

If the Washington Post has decided to commit truth on Kerry, he has a serious problem. His entire strategy is blown up. He counted on the Dimsymp press never to do any such thing.

[MACVSOG68]

The Wisconsin delegation proposed a plan to contact 2,000 active-duty GI’s in South Vietnam and in effect ask them for a mutinous action by refusing to take up arms when ordered to do so. This proposal was favorably accepted by the committee.

Boy, am I glad you are on our side! This is excellent stuff.

Hannity....Head's up!

Seems we have the making of Swift Boat video no. 4...

O'Neill, Head's up!

Wasn't Kerry still in the military as a reserve officer during this time? And was he not still under oath to protect and defend the Consitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic? And did he not approve of this effort to solicit mutiny? If so,

FBI...Wake up!

[AaronInCarolina]

Wasn't Kerry still in the military as a reserve officer during this time?

Without question.

And was he not still under oath to protect and defend the Consitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic?

Without question.

And did he not approve of this effort to solicit mutiny?

Implicitly, if not explicitly. There is some ambiguity here, because it was at this meeting that Kerry announced that he was resigning from his position in the Executive Committee of VVAW for "personal reasons". Now, he will probably claim that as such, he was not involved in these decisions, but the FBI documents reveal that he continued to attend meetings and remained a high-profile member of the VVAW group for some time after that meeting in Kansas City, November 1971.

There is also one other damning thing that I found in browsing through these documents. Rather than re-type some things, I will link to a previous thread that I originated concerning using POW's a pawns or tokens in VVAW's attempt to establish themselves as an organization with "real power". It will sicken anyone who has ever felt compassion for a Prisoner Of War.

Kerry's VVAW Group Used POW's as clout tokens!

[AaronInCarolina]

There is a great new thread that has in in-depth article about the assassination plot:

HOW KERRY QUIT VETERANS GROUP AMID DARK PLOT

[MACVSOG68]

Thanks for the links. Maybe this week some of this will hit the airwaves.