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THE "New" CBS BUSH DOCUMENTS: Let's do some investigating
www.freerepublic.com | September 9, 2004

Posted on 09/08/2004 9:16:02 PM PDT by Howlin

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To: FastCoyote
Something I noticed which is odd is that the 'e's aren't all the same, some have the horizontal bar at a slant, some straight, some squashed, some open. I don't know how you do that on a typewriter, much less a laser printer.

Abnormal print quality isn't odd on an old typewriter -- in fact if it wasn't uneven then I would suspect a laser printer. I looked around on the docs to see if all the letters were exactly the same, and there's a few differences. That might of been caused by scanning them in for the web though.
401 posted on 09/09/2004 8:50:56 AM PDT by lelio
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To: whomever

bumpmark


402 posted on 09/09/2004 8:52:06 AM PDT by Lil'freeper (You do not have the plug-in required to view this tagline.)
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To: Howlin
Send the thread to the usual.....Rush, Fox and Drudge.....That's a start...Should at least give them something to think about.....CBS should be embarrassed as much as possible.
403 posted on 09/09/2004 8:52:28 AM PDT by hoosiermama (Bush Democrats = Zell's Angels)
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To: Wild_Bill_8881
not one of those four documents would have been kept in anyone's official Personal file

The thing I find suspicious, is that ANY AND ALL memos similar to those, are purged from a military member's 201 file, and given to the service member.

If anyone would have had those memos, it would have been President Bush. I have 40 or 50 similar memos in my personal files AT HOME, not unit personnel files, from as far back as the early 70s.

404 posted on 09/09/2004 8:57:33 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Charter member of the VRWC - and proud of it.)
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To: Law is not justice but process

That is true.
It is the property of the US Government.
Also, his suggestion/belief that Mr. Bush was speaking to higher ups suggests a paranoia that would have kept him in the mailroom. He makes a statement without any facts whatsover, but just what he thinks.
Interesting....


405 posted on 09/09/2004 8:58:50 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: mabelkitty; Howlin; Congressman Billybob
" The typing would have been light in a Xerox copy, and copied many times....

OK. Riddle me this: The PDF formatted "documents" are riddled with hundreds of "black dots" - that come ONLY from being copied dozens and dozens of times on a poorly cleaned copier, from an original that is a white sheet of paper.

OK. Fine.

But, why .... IF these "documents" were only just received (from his widow, supposedly - since CBS itself claims they were NOT among those released from the White House..... Why would they have been copied (run through a dirty copier) over and over and over and over again?

WHY make so many repeats of a private document that nobody knew about until yesterday?

406 posted on 09/09/2004 8:59:28 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Kerry's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: The G Man

"Side by side signature"

Wow, Look at the hooks on the "K"!!!! One goes the wrong direction!!!

I broke my neck many years ago, and as a result had to switch from writing right handed to left handed. Even under such a drastic switch, my writing never made such a basic change as that!!!


407 posted on 09/09/2004 9:01:04 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: An.American.Expatriate
Not certain if it means anything, but on the second memo, where the address is blacked out it says "5000 Longmont #8" UNDER the blacked out area. How is this possible that the subtle shading difference would translate across multiple copiers, and then scanning to a pdf? When was it blacked out?

I was in the military for 12 years, and never saw a memo written to someone that included the address and the city in the way it was listed. What would be the point, unless it was intended as a guard mail? The address is on the southwest side of Memorial park in Houston. Certainly outside the range of guard mail.

Very odd.
408 posted on 09/09/2004 9:01:26 AM PDT by four more in O 4 (God Bless George Bush and God Bless YOU.)
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To: four more in O 4

Jim Geraghty's Kerry Spot on NR Online has now picked up the story. I know Rush reads that particular weblog and I expect to hear something today on his show.


409 posted on 09/09/2004 9:03:23 AM PDT by BigMacGOP
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To: dila813

It has a #8 after it on the memo.
Too bad we can't do a deed search.
I love detective work!


410 posted on 09/09/2004 9:05:08 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: EdReform

bttt


411 posted on 09/09/2004 9:05:31 AM PDT by EdReform (Support Free Republic - All donations are greatly appreciated. Thank you for your support!)
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To: BigMacGOP

Yeeehaah!!! This is going to be a laugh riot!


412 posted on 09/09/2004 9:07:57 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: Congressman Billybob
The reason to think that these documents were written (or forged, it remains to be established) on a typewriter using a ribbon.

I don't have any clear recollection of IBMs from the early 70s, but I do remember that the high end typewriters used by executives had mylar ribbons that produced a page that looked printed. I'm pretty sure, based on intuition, that any typewriter capable of using a proportional font would have used such a ribbon.

The first document appears to have been scanned from the original rather than from a copy, because you can see through the magic marker and read the text that is supposed to have been blocked.

413 posted on 09/09/2004 9:12:11 AM PDT by js1138 (Speedy architect of perfect labyrinths.)
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To: TC Rider; Dog; bootless; sinkspur; Mo1; Howlin; Timeout
Putting your post over here, too:

To: bootless; sinkspur; Mo1; Howlin; Timeout
I found this over at Powerline...

UPDATE 2: Reader John Risko adds:

I was a clerk/typist for the US Navy at the Naval Underwater Systems Center (NUSC) in Newport RI for my summer job in 1971 when I was in college. I note the following with regard to the Killian memos:

1) Tom Mortensen is absolutely correct. Variable type was used only for special printing jobs, like official pamphlets. These documents are forgeries, and not even good ones. Someone could have at least found an old pre-Selectric IBM (introduced around 1962). Actually, I believe we were using IBM Model C's at the time, which was the precursor to the Selectric.

2) I also used a Variype machine in 1971. I fooled around with it in my spare time. It was incredibly difficult to set up and use. It was also extremely hard to correct mistakes on the machine. Most small letters used two spaces. Capital letters generally used three spaces. I think letters like "i" may have used one space. Anyway, you can see that this type of machine was piloted by an expert, and it would NEVER be used for a routine memo. A Lt. Colonel would not be able to identify a Varitype machine, let alone use it.

3) US Navy paper at the time was not 8 1/2 x 11. It was 8 x 10 1/2. I believe this was the same throughout the military, but someone will have to check on that. This should show up in the Xeroxing, which should have lines running along the sides of the Xerox copy.

4) I am amused by the way "147 th Ftr.Intrcp Gp." appears in the August 1, 1972 document. It may have been written that way in non-forged documents, but as somone who worked for ComCruDesLant, I know the military liked to bunch things together. I find "147 th" suspicious looking. 147th looks better to me, but the problem with Microsoft Word is that it keeps turning the "th" tiny if it is connected to a number like 147. And finally......

5) MORE DEFINITIVE PROOF OF FORGERY: I had neglected even to look at the August 18, 1973 memo to file. This forger was a fool. This fake document actually does have the tiny "th" in "187th" and there is simply no way this could have occurred in 1973. There are no keys on any typewriter in common use in 1973 which could produce a tiny "th." The forger got careless after creating the August 1, 1972 document and slipped up big-time.

In summary, the variable type reveals the Killian memos to be crude forgeries, the tiny "th" confirms it in the 8/18/73 memo, and I offer my other points as icing on the cake.

This is major news....spread the word!!! Posted by The Big Trunk at 07:51 AM | Permalink | TrackBack (26)

159 posted on 09/09/2004 12:10:02 PM EDT by Dog

414 posted on 09/09/2004 9:13:54 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Steven W.

You are incorrect.
The dem talking points are now, the Iraq war was wrong because Bush and everyone in his administration tried to avoid Vietnam and got endless deferments, and they are waging war in Iraq.
This is to take the war on terrorism off the table.
Feinswine mouthed this garbage. It's to shut us up.


415 posted on 09/09/2004 9:15:52 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: Howlin

That needs to be in a stand alone thread Howlin....do the honors....and put it breaking news.


416 posted on 09/09/2004 9:16:12 AM PDT by Dog
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To: Howlin; pabianice
Here's an interesting tidbit from yet another thread on this subject. I posted a link to this thread there, and asked the writer to post his point here, but he hasn't yet, so I will - 8-)

Posted on 09/09/2004 7:55:59 AM PDT by pabianice

On a previous thread the author makes excellent points about the anachronism error in the "memos" the Liberals have recently "discovered" regarding George Bush's alleged "desertion" and "dereliction of duty" while in the Texas ANG.

A look at these memos shows another problem. A big problem. To understand it, you have to understand a bit about the military. In official documents of any kind, proper rank abbreviations are strictly enforced, to the point that, if they are incorrect, the document has to be destroyed and rewritten. A document forwarded with incorrect acronyms is returned for resubmittal.

The "memos" the Liberal Gang has "discovered," showing Bush to have been a shirker, all carry a consistent incorrect abbreviation for his rank. The only acceptable abbreviation for a USAF or ANG first lieutenant is "1LT." I have also seen, rarely, it written "1/LT," although this is the exception. All the "recently discovered" memos about Bush say "1stLt." While I am Navy and not Air Force, to the best of my knowledge, this is not allowed, let alone a mispunctuated memo addressed to Bush as "1stLt.3244754FG."

I am willing to bet a week's pay that these memos are forgeries.

417 posted on 09/09/2004 9:16:45 AM PDT by Bush_Democrat (Now EX-Democrat!)
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To: Howlin

The only thing that bothers me about this whole "forgery" thing is that the White House has not denied that these memos are authentic. In fact, Bartlett has as much as admitted they're genuine.


418 posted on 09/09/2004 9:17:14 AM PDT by sinkspur ("Can someone tell me where to find an ordained archpriest?"--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: sinkspur

Not so to my knowledge. He has simply said he doesn't know why they were not in the official file and were in Killian's personal files.

Later on today they will probably come out stronger on this, or at least endorse the questions concerning the authenticity.


419 posted on 09/09/2004 9:21:24 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: Buckhead

No initial denial means they're authentic. But, I still don't see what's so incriminating in them. We've known about all of this.


420 posted on 09/09/2004 9:23:35 AM PDT by sinkspur ("Can someone tell me where to find an ordained archpriest?"--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Howlin
Just came over from the 1/LT thread. I'm an ex-Army officer. It's always 1LT and LTC. No exceptions, no variations. A new butter bar might screw this up, but not an LTC.

I have never seen a military memo addressed like this. Also, I never saw officers typing their own memos. I knew how to type and I never did it.

We had typewriters in the units in the late 70's. The only word processor I saw was in an actual word processing pool located in a large depot-level maintenance facility.

421 posted on 09/09/2004 9:23:40 AM PDT by colorado tanker (wanna see my happy hat?)
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To: Tamsey

That's it.
That's the Smoking Gun.
Highly unlikely that a man who typed th one space separate from the number in previous memos then waved a magin wand and created smaller keys on the typewriter and move the roller up half a click for a CYA memo.

CBS knows this was faked - that's why they pulled the "expect handwriting analysis and third party evaluator" or whatever. They could deflect blame when caught.


422 posted on 09/09/2004 9:23:59 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: Howlin

The is a discussion on msnbc now about these documents.Peter Hoff says it is strange how the documents just reappeared 20 years after a man has died.Hoff said a number of Republican files went missing during the Clinton there are those in the Pentagon, associated with the Clinton administration, who are messing with files of the President.


423 posted on 09/09/2004 9:28:21 AM PDT by tapatio (Society is always taken by surprise at any new example of common sense.)
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To: sinkspur
is that the White House has not denied that these memos are authentic.

No one has seen these memo's untill last night .. I doubt the WH would deny or confirm something they knew nothing about.

424 posted on 09/09/2004 9:28:43 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: mabelkitty

To be heard soon on DU:

"These documents are forged documents by the Bush Administration to throw us off and make us look like fools. The 'real' documents which contain much more incriminating information was removed by Rove at the Pentagon (insert photoshop picture of Rove with documents in his socks)."


425 posted on 09/09/2004 9:30:17 AM PDT by Maringa
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To: bhlewis

But no superscript.
Proportional spacing is a moot point.


426 posted on 09/09/2004 9:30:55 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: Howlin
correction

The is a discussion on msnbc now about these documents.Peter Hoff says it is strange how the documents just reappeared 20 years after a man has died.Hoff said a number of Republican files went missing during the Clinton administration and wants an investigation to see if there are those in the Pentagon, associated with the Clinton administration, who are messing with files of the President.

427 posted on 09/09/2004 9:31:52 AM PDT by tapatio (Society is always taken by surprise at any new example of common sense.)
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To: sinkspur
The only thing that bothers me about this whole "forgery" thing is that the White House has not denied that these memos are authentic. In fact, Bartlett has as much as admitted they're genuine.

The White House may not know one way or the other, and are taking a "wait-and-see" approach. Give your opponents enough rope...

There are MULTIPLE problems with these memos. Proportional fonts were only found on high-end, top-notch typewriters (which the military didn't buy); you NEVER saw superscripts on unit designators until the 1990s (it would be "111th," not "111th" prior to the widespread use of laser printers and word processors), and the usage of rank is incorrect--the "1stLt" conforms to Marine Corps, not Air Force/Air National Guard, conventions. I spent eight years pushing paper in the USMC, and these memos just ring false.

428 posted on 09/09/2004 9:32:06 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: lelio; Howlin

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet (hard to keep up with it all)

There is an enormously obvious word-processing insert on this memo: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf

Where is says "Austin is not happy today either"

The "not happy today either" drops down to the next line and is in an easily obvious different font from the entire rest of the document


429 posted on 09/09/2004 9:33:06 AM PDT by Tamzee (The NYT.... All the news that pink to print)
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To: Howlin
White House officials have said there was no reason for Bush to take the annual physical required of fighter pilots because there were no suitable planes for him to fly in Alabama, where he applied for "substitute training" to replace his required service with the Texas National Guard.

This was something I'd been wondering about quite a bit. Given what I've read about the phase-out of the planes Bush was rated on, it would suprise me if the planes had even been available for him to fly.

430 posted on 09/09/2004 9:34:27 AM PDT by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over and the Constitution is dead.)
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To: Tamsey

Zoom in on the letter I in the sentence that says I will not rate.It is different from the other I's.


431 posted on 09/09/2004 9:36:40 AM PDT by tapatio (Society is always taken by surprise at any new example of common sense.)
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To: Buckhead
MS Word goes back to the future?

Item #4 on this link is the clincher for me, that drives me crazy with Microsoft Word.

432 posted on 09/09/2004 9:37:55 AM PDT by WoodstockCat (Al Gore: I am Irrelevant, hear me Roar.)
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To: IrishRainy

I was thinking the same thing.
Remember the carbon paper and onion paper nightmares?
Remember the great smell of the mimeograph machine?
I always made sure I got those documents right because close proximity to a poison that may end up killing me one day smelled really really good ; )


433 posted on 09/09/2004 9:41:08 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: mabelkitty

"....Too bad we can't do a deed search..."

Next best thing:

http://www.hcad.org/Records/Real.asp?search=addr

enter the property address. Click each name & then follow link to ownership history.

Any recognizable names?


434 posted on 09/09/2004 9:45:16 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: MizSterious

You better believe it.
I have read that Rumsfeld's first year as head of Defense has altered the Pentagon for decades to come (and lifers are ticked off).
They also lose turf (money and power) with the base shake-up that are coming to accommodate the war on terrorism by dismantling the Cold War operation they still have.


435 posted on 09/09/2004 9:47:21 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: Howlin
And I sure do remember "rolling" the carriage for the superscript!

In a reduced size type? Just curious (I am a child of the 80s - lol!)

436 posted on 09/09/2004 9:48:02 AM PDT by Dasaji (I read it here first on FreeRepublic - Become a monthly donor!)
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To: Dasaji

Not that I remember.


437 posted on 09/09/2004 9:53:30 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: The G Man

Yikes.
Compare John Kerry's signature (his J and K) to this document's (J and K).
If they match, good chance someone close to Kerry's campaign (who may sign his signature) did this.


438 posted on 09/09/2004 9:55:13 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: Howlin

I saw that at the "Kerry Spot" on NRO (via "PowerLine"). I worked my way thru college in the mid 70's as a typist. I can tell you, those IBM Selectrics were very rare before 1980...and they certainly couldn't type that tiny "th". No way this document was created earlier than widespread appearance of word processing in the 1990's.

Good work, Freepers!


439 posted on 09/09/2004 9:57:17 AM PDT by Timeout (My name is Timeout....and I'm a blogaholic)
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To: Timeout

Exactly. I was just talking to somebody on another thread about releasing the carriage and "rolling" it up to make the "th" but the "th" was the same size as the other type!


440 posted on 09/09/2004 9:58:26 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: mabelkitty
Does it make sense that Killian would write a memo dated August 1, 1972 stating that the transfer was not allowed and then in a CYA memo dated August 18, 1972 state that he didn't have any feedback from Alabama?

"F" stands for forgery.
441 posted on 09/09/2004 10:02:03 AM PDT by Dolphy (Support swiftvets.com)
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To: Howlin

I rarely did the "roll up" thing. Maybe a math professor might care about such things, but your typical office memo just didn't bother. And especially if it were just a note to file....why would anyone go to all that trouble, not to mention having to clean the ribbon ink off one's hands?!

I haven't had any time to read this thread. I see y'all have been comparing signatures again. Please ping me to any major-development posts. I'll catch up tonight!


442 posted on 09/09/2004 10:02:16 AM PDT by Timeout (My name is Timeout....and I'm a blogaholic)
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To: Law is not justice but process
Could the source of these apparently poor fakes be someone in league with Bush? Give then some line, let the press run with it a bit, then set the hook by demonstrating it to be unequivocally a fake. It would discredit all attacks on Bush.

This may or may not be the case here.

However, as I'm sure you are aware, this wouldn't be the first time this type of scheme were used. Even if this were true in this specific case, it's very possible that it was done without the knowledge of the person or subject in question.

443 posted on 09/09/2004 10:03:38 AM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE

They didn't.
I think they were trying to convince us this was official from the Pentagon. This would, indeed, look like a copy of a copy stored like in hospitals or something like that.

Since that is not the case, this is supposedly ba first copy of an original, and Mrs. Killiam would have the original. Someone attempted to make this look exactly like the documents released by Bush ecause they weren't thinking clearly and had to rush this (I agree this October surprise was dropped early).

I am, however, curious as to why the original was not copied and notarized and kept with Mrs. Killiam and the original given to CBS? What did she have to lose? She knew they were going to run it on television.

Could it be because there are no originals? We know the answer to that.


444 posted on 09/09/2004 10:04:57 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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Comment #445 Removed by Moderator

To: Howlin; NYCVirago

Has anyone actually opened up MS Word, set the font to Times New Roman 12 pt, typed the memos verbatim and then turned them into PDFs? Compare them side by side with the ones being put out there now...


446 posted on 09/09/2004 10:07:40 AM PDT by NYC GOP Chick
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To: four more in O 4

I received a copy of my grandmother's social security number application, and her parents names were blacked out for privacy reasons (policy in case they were still alive).
I had no way at all of getting that information from under the black mark.

However.

If I type a letter, print it on paper with a laser printer and black mark out with a Sharpie, the laszer printed "rises" above the black marker ink. I've not scanned something like this, but I would assume the scan would remove the black mark from the raised laser on the page. I've also not tried faxing such a document.

These documents may have been faxed and received by CBS. The background marks are just too interesting.


447 posted on 09/09/2004 10:08:55 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: sinkspur

How can they?
They came from Killiam's widow - not the Pentagon.
They are not part of his file of record.


448 posted on 09/09/2004 10:11:10 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: tapatio

Damn!
Clintons are finally going to be nailed on that!


449 posted on 09/09/2004 10:13:12 AM PDT by mabelkitty (Zealous Troll Hunter - and you know who you are - you've been warned.)
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To: Timeout

As other Freepers have stated, the IBM Executive had both proportional spacing and superscript "th".


450 posted on 09/09/2004 10:14:26 AM PDT by mcg1969
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