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US expert sketches nightmare nuclear terrorist attack on major city
AFP ^ | Wed, Sep 22, 2004

Posted on 09/22/2004 10:06:51 AM PDT by Area Freeper

A trained nuclear engineer using material the size of an orange could build an atomic bomb to fit into a van, proliferation expert Laura Holgate said, sketching a nightmare scenario of a terrorist attack on a major city.

She recalled that terrorists had attacked the World Trade Center in New York in 1993 with a van loaded with conventional explosives.

Holgate told reporters at a meeting in Vienna of the UN nuclear watchdog International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that it was "not widely shared and understood" how risky the current situation is, especially since terrorists would not necessarily need top-level scientists to build a bomb.

The nuclear threat remains the big one, and all too real, said Holgate, a senior member of the Washington-based Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) think tank and a former US Department of Energy (news - web sites) official for disposal of plutonium.

She said the "raw material for nuclear terrorism is housed in hundreds of facilities in dozens of countries and inadequately secured."

"That's the central point of the Global Threat Reduction Initiative" which the United States and Russia have launched to repatriate highly enriched uranium (HEU) and to convert nuclear research reactors from HEU to low enriched uranium (LEU) use.

"We know nuclear theft is happening already," she said, saying that one institute in Russia has documented "23 attempts over eight years to steal nuclear bomb-making materials."

"We know these failed. We don't know how many succeeded and went undetected," Holgate said.

She also said she did not think terrorists had yet a nuclear weapon. "If terrorist organizations had been able to do this (obtain one), they would have used it by now," Holgate said.

The stakes are high.

"A nuclear device going off in any large city around the globe is going to kill millions of people," she said.

"The economic damage can be in the trillions (of dollars) and it can also be global," she said.

"This is in contrast to a dirty-bomb threat that tends to be hyped," she said about concern that terrorists could use conventional bombs with radioactive materials, contaminating areas with radiation rather than destroying them with the blast of an atomic bomb.

Holgate said a problem in making sure that nuclear materials are not lying where terrorists can get them is that there is "lack of acceptance" within the Russian government that "their material is not adequately secured and that there is a relationship between terrorism and these materials."

But she said the Russians seemed to be more aware of the threat since the Beslan school tragedy and a recognition of "weaknesses" in the Russian system, due to bribes and poor security.

The United States and Russia have produced most of the highly radioactive material now spread throughout the world.

Holgate said the United States and the then-Soviet Union gave out 20 tonnes of HEU in the 1950s and 1960s as part of the Atoms for Peace program for the peaceful uses of nuclear energy.

"Keeping track of where this HEU is now kilogram by kilogram is difficult." she said.

In addition, over 1,000 tonnes were created by the United States and the Soviet Union for their weapons programs, and there is no minute accounting for this.

William Potter, from the Monterey Institute of International Studies, a California-based think tank, said that in addition the Soviet Union and now Russia have some seven icebreaker ships which use nuclear fuel enriched to about 60 percent, Potter said.

HEU is uranium enriched to over 20 percent, but weapons grade uranium starts at 80 percent enrichment for the U-235 isotope.

Holgate said terrorists could do without the sophistication needed for small bombs. "A truck size is probably a more relevant size," since such a bomb could be made with lower levels of HEU.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: nationalsecurity; nukes; proliferation
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To: PA Engineer
According to your table, a strip of real estate about half a mile wide and twelve miles long would be contaminated with radiation levels that would be fatal in about one hour if they were standing outside. If they move to the lower levels of multi-story buildings and went to interior rooms away from the broken windows and dust they would be receiving a much lower dose.

So how many people would that affect? Figure about 35,000 people per sq mi times 7.8 sq mi. That's 273,000 thousand people that would need to be evacuated in a few days.

It could be done.

141 posted on 09/23/2004 9:50:44 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Poohbah
We may need to rethink a LOT of policies--such as the desire to stuff as many people as humanly possible into close quarters and call the result "urban planning."

I agree. With the technology we have, cities are obsolete. Dispersal of the population is a good thing that is being disparaged as "suburban sprawl" by urban politicians who see it as a shrinking tax base.

But the fires that DO start will not get put out, and will continue dumping secondary activation products downwind,

There has never been a nuclear ground burst in city before so we can only speculate. Anything shielded by a building would not catch fire and would receive a lot less blast damage. It would not be a firestorm.

142 posted on 09/23/2004 10:11:08 AM PDT by Dan Evans ("ten to twenty million tops" -- General Turgidson, "Dr Stranglove")
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To: Neocon Shavuz
Israel had never wanted and never will conquer any country

When faced with conquer or die, I think the Jews will choose conquer.
143 posted on 09/23/2004 10:15:03 AM PDT by mugs99 (Restore the Constitution)
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To: VxH
If a nuclear weapon was detonated in an American city, I think you could safely assume that the protection afforded by moral restraint would be dramatically reduced

The problem is, we can't really be certain who to nuke.

We need to rethink this global trade thing and just how connected we want to be with the world. Engaging in commerce with people is a lot like having sex with them -- it tends to spread infectious things.

144 posted on 09/23/2004 10:16:17 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
There has never been a nuclear ground burst in city before so we can only speculate. Anything shielded by a building would not catch fire and would receive a lot less blast damage. It would not be a firestorm.

Actually, the modern architectural style (glass facades that are very reflective in the SWIR and LWIR bands) would probably wind up igniting a bunch of fires--the initial thermal pulse would get reflected every which way (before those windows blew in/out) and hit just about every flammable surface available. Instant fires...the lack of a major blast wave would actually tend to keep those fires lit.

145 posted on 09/23/2004 10:16:36 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: metalurgist
Immagine the panic and lawlessness as every big city that thinks that it is a target has it's population flee for the hills. It would take months for order to be somewhat restored. Maybe a decade before we got back to where we were.

I don't think so. In WWII people didn't panic and head for the hills when they saw other cities were being bombed.

When a hurricane comes to Florida, people have to be encouraged to evacuate.

It depends a lot on the people you are talking about. Americans carry guns, anyone who acts up is liable to get shot.

146 posted on 09/23/2004 10:22:23 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans

Your problem is that you're presuming that everyone will behave rationally when they're immediately downwind of a surface burst.


147 posted on 09/23/2004 10:23:36 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: mugs99
When faced with conquer or die, I think the Jews will choose conquer.

I wish more Jews in the US thought that way. I am astounded about the attitude of so many U.S. liberals who wring their hands over the deposition of Saddam. What is it going to take for them to realize a threat?

148 posted on 09/23/2004 10:37:07 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Poohbah
Your problem is that you're presuming that everyone will behave rationally when they're immediately downwind of a surface burst.

I'm sure that some won't behave rationally. But what historical example is there to expect widespread civic chaos?

I can think of a few examples: The LA riots, Watts riots. But to put it diplomatically, some people are different. And even those people knew enough to keep the riots in their own neighborhood.

Mob psychology is difficult to predict. I would guess that fear may have a calming effect.

149 posted on 09/23/2004 10:53:54 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Poohbah
Actually, the modern architectural style (glass facades that are very reflective in the SWIR and LWIR bands)

I would expect that to have a slight diffusing effect for a block or two, but mostly the effect would be to reflect the light upwards toward the sky.

150 posted on 09/23/2004 11:00:52 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
I'm sure that some won't behave rationally. But what historical example is there to expect widespread civic chaos?

The only two data points we have for nuclear weapons employment were against a culture with a near-fatalistic sense of duty and a tradition of subordinating one's will to that of the group.

Against Americans...I would argue that our greater emphasis on individualism will tend to create a much more chaotic reaction.

If anyone in the target area knows anything about nukes, but doesn't know anything about how to shield against fallout, he will attempt to get the hell out of there immediately.

Meanwhile, a bunch of folks, ignorant of nuclear weapons effects, will try to get their injured fellows (or themselves) to medical attention. Remember, communications are going to be OUT. Passing information to the populace is also going to be difficult, because many of them will have ruptured eardrums.

You basically are betting the mortgage money on a perfectly rational response, in the absence of perfect knowledge of what the rational response is.

151 posted on 09/23/2004 11:01:37 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: Dan Evans
I would expect that to have a slight diffusing effect for a block or two, but mostly the effect would be to reflect the light upwards toward the sky.

You're wrong; thank you for playing.

152 posted on 09/23/2004 11:02:23 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: HitmanNY

Just heard from a co-worker who's husband is a policeman that their dept. recently rec'd a warning (probable) about such a possibility.


153 posted on 09/23/2004 11:06:54 AM PDT by american spirit
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To: Robe
One could trigger a nuclear event just by pushing two sub critical masses together...then boom

Not all all. Simply pushing two subcritical masses together to form a supercritical assembly results in a criticality accident, but not an explosion. You get lethal exposures in the immediate vicinity but nothing widespread. This has happened before. Try Googling "Louis Slotin" and read the articles listed there.

Not a lot of people know it, but the key to achieving a high-yield explosion is not just bringing together enough material, but effecting a density change of the material to the point of making the assembled reacting mass really, really, really supercritical, and holding it together for a sufficient time to allow enough reactions to occur to release significant amounts of energy. Since weapons-grade uranium or plutonium is usually in the metallic form, which is incompressible under normal conditions, that is not easy to do in the right way. There is a whole science that deals with the behavior of normally incompressible metals under conditions of high temperature and pressure wherein they behave as compressible fluids (radiation hydrodynamics). Not the kind of knowledge your average mujahadeen is likely to have at his fingertips.

154 posted on 09/23/2004 11:28:14 AM PDT by chimera
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To: chimera

Sorry for the typo. The first all --> at. :-(


155 posted on 09/23/2004 11:29:33 AM PDT by chimera
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To: Area Freeper
"A truck size is probably a more relevant size," since such a bomb could be made with lower levels of HEU.

I don't think so. There's no point in loading up a truck with large masses of lower-enriched materials. There is a practical upper limit to the physical size of a fission weapon. Beyond a certain size, you simply can't assemble the reacting mass fast enough to achieve a high yield explosion. You get pre-detonation, and a fizzle. The reacting mass blows itself apart before you can assemble it into a highly supercritical assembly. The bigger the assembly, the worse the problem of pre-detonation is. Oppenheimer's group struggled mightily with this problem. Parasitic neutron absorption by 238U really kills the chance of making anything useful out of stuff below about 90% enrichment.

The things that really made compact warheads possible for this and other advanced countries was the availability of plutonium in quantity and the development of reflected, levitated cores. So now you need two things that are hard to come by, plutonium and highly efficient neutron reflectors (e.g., weapons-grade beryllium), and have to know how to do something that is hard to do (build a levitated core weapon using plutonium as the fuel and beryllium reflectors). While I know how to do it in principle (most people who understand nuclear physics and engineering do), I don't think I could be successful doing it even if I had the materials, at least not the first time out.

156 posted on 09/23/2004 11:41:53 AM PDT by chimera
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To: Dan Evans
What is it going to take for them to realize a threat?

They are addicted to the MSM and Hollywood propaganda. They really believe that socialism has given them the good life here in America. They ignore that it was socialism that tried to extinct their race. They are just poor dupes, but that is changing.

The internet is making truth available to the masses. This will cause the MSM and Hollywood to change. A new generation will not be so gullible.
157 posted on 09/23/2004 11:53:50 AM PDT by mugs99 (Restore the Constitution)
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To: chimera

Thanks for enlightening me. I knew someone during the Manhatten project DID push two subcritical masses together and got some very interesting result and died shortly afterward.
You explaination made alot of sense
Thanks


158 posted on 09/23/2004 11:56:34 AM PDT by Robe (Rome did not create a great empire by talking, they did it by killing all those who opposed them)
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To: Robe
I knew someone during the Manhatten project DID push two subcritical masses together and got some very interesting result and died shortly afterward.

That was Louis Slotin. Searching on his name will bring up a memorial site, and other information. There have been other criticality accidents, most recently the one in Japan with the accidental mixing of larger-than-intended quantities of liquid solutions containing fissile materials (not good because there is moderator in there as well as fissile forms).

There was a near-miss safe geometry incident at the Portsmouth GDP in this country some time ago because of a plugged feed line which was a result of oil intrusion into the process stream. What avoided criticality in that case was the lack of a reflector. When they cut the plugged section out of the line the forklift operator set it on the floor. Bad move, because concrete (and the soil below it) can reflect neutrons. Fortunately, the assembly never attained criticality.

159 posted on 09/23/2004 12:12:45 PM PDT by chimera
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To: Poohbah
The only two data points we have for nuclear weapons employment were against a culture with a near-fatalistic sense of duty and a tradition of subordinating one's will to that of the group.

I think the next closest comparison would be the English during WWII. They not only had area bombardment but a steady rain of V1 and V2 bombs. They were fairly well behaved. Every day Israelis are subject to sudden death from suicide bombers but they take it in stride.

Again it depends on the city. Fargo ND will react differently than New York City. I think a lot will have to do with public estimation of the danger. The Soviets had the capability to kill hundreds of millions of us yet we knew they didn't have the will. We can assume that terrorists would kill us if they could, but don't have the nukes -- and if they do, they won't get many.

Other data points would be cases were populations were sufficiently threatened when the Nazis were on the march in WWII. In those cases the exodus was orderly and rational, not rampaging mobs.

You are right, how people in the other cities react depends on what they know and the more they know the better. Different personalities will react differently -- some will leave, some will dig in and stock up. But the rational person will ask, where will I go, and what will I do when I get there? If you don't have a good answer you will stay put.

So there is no evidence outside of Hollywood that chaos would ensue.

Remember, communications are going to be OUT.

Why? EMP? What is the EMP effect from a ground detonation. I thought that was only a factor from high-altitude blasts.

Transistor radios will still work and radio stations outside the area will work.

You basically are betting the mortgage money on a perfectly rational response

That's the nature of life. We are forced to bet one way or another.

What's the alternative?

160 posted on 09/23/2004 1:24:02 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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