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[California AG] Lockyer wants handgun ammo branded [only tagged ammo could be possessed by public]
San Diego Union Tribune ^ | October 6, 2004

Posted on 10/06/2004 3:12:01 PM PDT by John Jorsett

SACRAMENTO – For years, manufacturers have branded computer chips and airline parts with microscopic codes that identify each piece and protect against counterfeiting and theft.

The figures, etched with a laser and as small as the width of two human hairs, are nearly invisible to the naked eye but easily read with an electronic magnifying glass.

After a promising internal study, California Attorney General Bill Lockyer has concluded the same high-tech tracking system could be a powerful new weapon against crime, particularly gun violence.

Lockyer wants to brand all handgun ammunition sold in the state. The ammunition and information about people who buy it would be electronically recorded with the same system now used for gun sales and stored in a database available to law enforcement.

Lockyer and his top firearms expert have briefed law enforcement leaders on the system and the Democratic attorney general is expected to introduce it at an anti-crime summit this week in Los Angeles.

The move figures to touch off the next big fight over gun-control in California, which already has some of the most stringent gun laws in the nation.

"Most of the guns used in crime – 80 percent – are handguns," said Randy Rossi, director of the firearms division at the state Department of Justice. "We want to see how well this works and give it a sunset. If it doesn't work, abandon it. But there is no reason in the world to believe it won't work."

The plan would require putting serial numbers on all handgun ammunition possessed in public, sold or imported into the state. To accommodate law-abiding sport shooters and those who reload their own cartridges, anyone on their way to or from a shooting range or hunting trip would be exempt. It's unclear how this provision would work, with supporters acknowledging that details on many aspects of the system need to be worked out.

The microstamping system under study was developed by a Washington state company, Ravensforge. The company engraves shell casings and bullets with a matching serial number. All of the cartridges in a box packaged for retail sale would have the same serial number, which could be scanned and linked to a purchaser's driver license number, Rossi said.

The state's more than 1,600 licensed firearms dealers already have the electronic equipment to record the information – scanning the code on the ammunition box and electronically swiping the driver license – in the same way they collect required personal information for gun transactions.

Rossi initially was skeptical that a bullet's number would be legible after it was fired.

A test of 200 rounds fired from close range into walls, car doors, bulletproof vests, rubber matting and a gel designed to simulate a human target convinced him the technology is sound.

Of 181 slugs recovered – including soft lead bullets that largely flattened out – the tiny code could be read on 180 of them with a simple electronic magnifying scope.

"We tried to prove this doesn't work," he said. "To have it work virtually every time, I was very surprised."

Lockyer seized on the system as an alternative to ballistics fingerprinting, which relies on unique, microscopic imperfections in shell casings and slugs. The attorney general angered gun-control advocates last year when his office concluded that ballistics imaging required a massive database and would prove ineffective unless launched as part of national system.

By tracking ammunition, which Rossi said has a relatively short shelf life, the state could develop a much broader database than an alternative that applies only to new handguns.

The attorney general's aides concede the microstamping proposal faces daunting political and financial obstacles. Manufacturers, gun-control and gun-rights activists – none of whom were involved in the initial study – are raising questions.

Gary Mehalik of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade association for manufacturers of ammunition and firearms, said the caliber of guns used in any test could have been a critical factor in the results.

The state tested 9 millimeter, .38, .40 and .45 caliber handguns. No .22 caliber weapons were used and microstamping has not yet been applied to .22 caliber ammunition, the most common used by sport shooters.

Rossi and Paul Curry, a lobbyist for Ravensforge, said the serial numbers could be applied for a penny or less per cartridge. But Mehalik predicted it would be expensive to add a manufacturing process that matches casings and bullets, and then packages them in a box with the same code number.

"We'd have to analyze the costs, but I can tell you that it would create a logistical nightmare inside the current production systems," Mehalik said.

A leading gun-rights group dismissed the proposal as an ill-conceived, high-tech version of gun registration.

"The technology is certainly there, but all of the technology can be defeated by anyone who wants to defeat it," said Sam Paredes of the 30,000-member Gun Owners of California.

Many gun owners make their own ammunition and reuse lead and shell casings, Paredes said.

"Gang members in South Central or East Los Angeles, they're going to know this ammunition is tainted," Paredes said. "So they're going to pay somebody a little bit of money to load some ammunition for them and they're clean."

But they won't be legal if caught with unmarked ammo in public, Rossi said.

"We could get some gang bangers who all of a sudden take an interest and study reloading . . . but I hardly think so," Rossi said. "These are the same people that won't even bother to put a glove on when they're committing a crime or put some mud on their license plate.

"This won't solve every crime, but it will solve a lot of crimes."


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist
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1 posted on 10/06/2004 3:12:01 PM PDT by John Jorsett
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To: John Jorsett

Yeah, riiiight... Why is my leg wet, is it raining?


2 posted on 10/06/2004 3:14:10 PM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: John Jorsett

Lockyer is an idiot.


3 posted on 10/06/2004 3:14:32 PM PDT by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON)
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To: John Jorsett

Lockyear sounds like a guy who does not have enough to worry about. Considering what is going on in CA, he is bordering on dereliction of duty already.


4 posted on 10/06/2004 3:15:13 PM PDT by NetValue (They're not Americans, they're democrats. They hate the US Constitution.)
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To: John Jorsett

Perhaps they could microstamp the money so the corruption in CA government could be traced.


5 posted on 10/06/2004 3:16:31 PM PDT by WildTurkey
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To: TheDon

He must be running for Gov. Total politician. How do they match up the bullet with the buyer? Arnold the RINO just vetoed the ammo registration bill.


6 posted on 10/06/2004 3:17:09 PM PDT by Ironclad (O Tempora! O Mores!)
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To: John Jorsett

Wasn't he the guy who publicly endorsed prison rape?


7 posted on 10/06/2004 3:17:41 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: John Jorsett
But they won't be legal if caught with unmarked ammo in public, Rossi said.

How's that scenario go? Hmmm, nice handgun you've got there under your shirt. Pearl handles? Sweet. Go ahead and ... wait a minute. IS THAT UNMARKED AMMO? UP AGAINST THE WALL, PUNK!

8 posted on 10/06/2004 3:17:58 PM PDT by John Jorsett (Kerry-Edwards: FORGING AHEAD)
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To: John Jorsett

branding the bullet itself? What if the bullet comes apart?

Seriously - do they expect ammo buyers to have EACH AND EVERY bullet REGISTERED to the purchaser? Otherwise, how would this really help solve anything? Each bullet and case must have matching numbers? And this will cost no more than a penny per round? I just don't believe it.

Just another effort at making it more difficult for law abiding citizens from owning and using firearms. This is a lot like the "Per-bullet" tax that was being pushed a few years ago...

But it's California - not enough 2nd Amendment supporters there with the balls to stand against this stupidity.


9 posted on 10/06/2004 3:18:37 PM PDT by TheBattman (Islam - the cult of Satan - The DemocRAT Party= Acolytes of SATAN)
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To: John Jorsett

I want all lib AGs branded on their forehead for identification.........


10 posted on 10/06/2004 3:18:57 PM PDT by litehaus
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To: TheDon; All
ABSOLUTLY AN IDIOT...

Ammo is already tagged...just spend the $$ to correctly identify, lot#, area of distribution and sale...DUH...just what the 'leftcoast' needs...more stupidity legislation

11 posted on 10/06/2004 3:19:03 PM PDT by kemosabe (Sheesh...'Opus' has it down pat,,,)
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To: John Jorsett
To accommodate law-abiding sport shooters and those who reload their own cartridges, anyone on their way to or from a shooting range or hunting trip would be exempt.

??? I reload my own self-defense ammunition. What in the world am I supposed to do?

Oh, and suppose I'm out target shooting with this stuff and somebody else picks up my brass (like just about every weekend) and reloads it and commits a crime with it. What then?

This is just another means to demonize and intimidate firearms owners. They're not even trying to hide it anymore.

12 posted on 10/06/2004 3:19:12 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: John Jorsett
So this brilliant politian thinks the criminals are going to legally purchase marked ammunition in the State of CA? The are the same criminals that purchased their guns illegally.
13 posted on 10/06/2004 3:20:29 PM PDT by martinidon ("who would Saddam and Osama vote for in this years election...")
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To: Ironclad
How do they match up the bullet with the buyer? Arnold the RINO just vetoed the ammo registration bill.

Apparently the plan is to revisit that. They'd swipe your driver's license, scan the bar code on the ammo box, marry the two pieces of info, and you'd be registered in their database as having purchased that ammo.

And yes, Lockyear is going to run for governor next year. He's already softening up potential rival Kevin Shelley, Secretary of State, by starting up an investigation on some questionable stuff he's been doing.

14 posted on 10/06/2004 3:21:59 PM PDT by John Jorsett (Kerry-Edwards: FORGING AHEAD)
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To: John Jorsett

Would anyone (such as non-law-abiding citizens, for instance) consider smuggling in un-tagged ammo from other states and selling it in CA? Naaah. That would never happen!


15 posted on 10/06/2004 3:24:01 PM PDT by Disambiguator (Assertion is not truth.)
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To: Billthedrill
Not that the whole idea isn't asinine, because it is, but if this comes to pass all you have to do is take out your pocket knife, if you can legally own one, and make both numbers go away.
16 posted on 10/06/2004 3:24:59 PM PDT by Tweaker
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To: martinidon
So this brilliant politian thinks the criminals are going to legally purchase marked ammunition in the State of CA?

Unbelievable isn't it. This guy is a frickin idiot. Second thought, he probably believes my ammo manufacturer in Georgia will figure the hell with Ca, it's not worth the trouble and the state can disarm me that way.

17 posted on 10/06/2004 3:25:58 PM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: John Jorsett

LOL! So, which ammo mfgs are going to make product just for CA? IF (a big if) they do it'll certainly be much more expensive. Maybe this is just a way to stop the flow of certain calibers into the state. I just love the part about CA itself being exempt. Hmmmm...

"Gang members in South Central or East Los Angeles, they're going to know this ammunition is tainted," Paredes said. "So they're going to pay somebody a little bit of money to load some ammunition for them and they're clean."
LOL! What can you say? Why would felons be apt to obey this law when they violate all the others???

This law would also effectively outlaw reloading as well. I'm sure that'll go over well.

WHY would anyone in their right mind continue to live in such a regressive place? Esp. when there are so many other parts of the country that are just as nice and free. Although Im sure if they do go w/ this one it'll be called a success whether it is or not. Then other commie administrations will try to foist it on their populace too. Whats wrong w/ us as a nation?


18 posted on 10/06/2004 3:28:30 PM PDT by 556x45
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To: Billthedrill
This is just another means to demonize and intimidate firearms owners. They're not even trying to hide it anymore.

They're certainly afraid of private citizens being armed.

All the more reason to remain so.

19 posted on 10/06/2004 3:29:18 PM PDT by Freebird Forever
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To: TheDon; John Jorsett
Lockyer is an idiot.

Yes he is, but he will find a willing participant to introduce such legislation in State Senator Jack Scott (D-Altadena, 51st Dist.) who wants to fingerprint ammo buyers.

BTW, Senator Scott, formerly of Sweatwater, Texas, is running unopposed by any Republican candidate in this years election. Scott will return to the California Senate to take out his gun hating policies on the citizens of California by the default of the California Republican Party.

In five years, lawful guns will be oulawed in California

20 posted on 10/06/2004 3:30:28 PM PDT by elbucko ( Feral Republican)
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