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Putin Bears Responsibility for Terrorism (Russian Takes Putin to Task)
Newsmax ^ | September 9, 2004 | Alexandr Nemets

Posted on 10/09/2004 12:42:38 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen

Putin Bears Responsibility for Terrorism Alexandr Nemets Thursday, Sept. 9, 2004

If you believe the press reports and spin from Russia, that nation is under attack from “terrorists,” who bear full responsibility for a spate of attacks against civilians – including the recent school massacre. But the facts suggest something more.

Consider the recent chronology of terrorism in Russia:

1) On Aug. 21, around 8 p.m. local time, about 300 Chechen guerrillas entered Grozny, the capital of Chechnya. Russian experts say the operation was planned thoroughly and its organizers were certain of its success. That’s why they came into the city long before nightfall. This fact alone smashed the multiple claims of high-ranking Moscow officials – Putin, Defense Minister Ivanov, etc. – that “terrorists in Chechnya are almost beaten and peace is near.”

This operation is comparable to the guerrilla attack on Nazran, the capital of neighboring Ingushetia Republic, on June 21, but the scale of the action in Grozny was probably greater. The guerrillas attacked dozens of objectives in Grozny: police stations, voting polls (prepared for the election of a new president of Chechnya), army and police checkpoints, army barracks and the city market.

Guerrilla groups of five to seven fighters each moved freely all over the city, stopping cars and checking documents for the purpose of “revealing” army and police officers and local officials.

For the entire night the city was in guerrilla hands. Guerrillas left the city at sunrise, and Russian army and police forces made no attempt to pursue them. Guerrilla losses reportedly were no more than 15, while Russian losses amounted to about 100.

2) On Aug. 24, about 11 p.m. local time, two Russian passenger planes exploded almost simultaneously and fell on the ground. Both had departed from Moscow’s Domodedovo airport and headed south. One of them, a huge TU-155, fell in the Rostov region; the other, a TU-134, fell in the Tula region. Eighty-eight people, including 16 crewmembers, died in the two catastrophes.

It took KGB/FSB and the Russian Interior Ministry (police department) about four days to recognize that “evidently, the two aircraft were destroyed as a result of a suicide terrorist action. Women with Chechen names were among the passengers of both aircraft.”

3) On Aug. 31, a suicide terrorist action took place near the metro station “Rizhsckaya” in the northern part of Moscow. A young Chechen woman exploded herself – one more “black widow” from the North Caucasus –killing 10 persons and wounding 50. Reportedly, she intended to blow herself up inside the subway itself (i.e., to reproduce that huge terrorist action in a subway train in February 2004), but she got scared of policemen at the entrance.

These actions alone cost Russia, by the estimate of most informed Moscow journalists, more than 200 lives.

4) Finally, on Sept. 1, about 50 “Chechen fighters,” calling themselves the Islambuli Brigade, seized the school in Beslan in the North Ossetia Republic, about 100 kilometers west of Grozny. The terrorists were heavily armed with automatic rifles and grenade launchers.

The action took place on the first day of the new school year. Initially it was supposed that around 300 children and their parents were taken as hostages. Later it appeared that the number of hostages probably approached 1,200. The terrorists immediately concentrated the hostages in the school gymnasium and mined the entire school building.

Seven people were killed during the hostage taking and in skirmishes around the school building on Sept. 1. The terrorists demanded the withdrawal of Russian troops from Chechnya and the release of the fighters captured during the attack of Nazran on June 21. A very grim detail: For the first time in the nine-year history of “Chechen terrorist actions,” terrorists “deployed” the children at the school windows as a “live shield”.

Sept. 2 passed comparatively quietly; the terrorists released 26 women and babies under the age of 2.

On the afternoon of Sept. 3, Russian troops “spontaneously and accidentally” (if we are to trust the Russian officials) initiated the school storming, which was accompanied by multiple explosions inside and intensive use of artillery from outside. Hundreds died during the storming of the school.

Who Is Guilty?

During the past several days, Russian journalists independent of the Kremlin (the leftist media belonging to the “democratic opposition”) and Russian-language journalists in New York (from RTV TV channel, Forwerts weekly and other newspapers not connected with Moscow) have been asking the same, traditionally Russian question: “Who is guilty?”

Impressively, all these journalists, in both Moscow and New York, of both leftist and moderate democratic orientation – from the chief editor of the Zavtra weekly, Alexandr Prokhanov, up to the former coach of the NTV channel (earlier the twin of RTV and now a Russian-government-controlled TV channel) Viktor Shenderovich – are giving the same answer, with insignificant variations: “Kremlin, Putin, Moscow!”

A more detailed answer, cleaned of emotion, is as follows:

The recent series of terrorist actions was primarily the result of the presidential election in Chechnya. This position became vacant on the death of the previous president, Akhmad Kadyrov, on May 9, in an explosion in the Grozny stadium. The new election took place on Sunday, Aug. 29. Supported by Moscow, Chechen Interior Minister Alu Alkhanov received around 75 percent of the votes, winning the election. Moscow proclaimed this election to be “honest and legitimate,” but the independent Russian media have another point of view.

Recent events prove that the phenomenon of a “normal government fulfilling its duties” has ceased to exist in Russia. Of course there are still several million people clad in the uniforms of the Russian army, police, FSB and other security forces. They are strong in looting, taking bribes, extorting tribute, shooting and arresting innocent people, and they are ruling supreme. They are absolutely helpless, however, in dealing with a real enemy!

These security forces, including Russian army officers deployed in Chechnya and the neighboring North Caucasus republics, are mostly corrupt. They probably wouldn’t arrest even Osama bin Laden entering a Moscow subway with a nuclear device, if he paid them handsomely enough.

And the mighty network of Chechen-controlled businesses in Moscow and other major Russian cities pays handsomely to key figures in the administration and security forces. These same businesses, enjoying a substantial share of the “oil-dollars rain” over Russia, have a lot of money to finance the guerrilla struggle in Chechnya and the most sophisticated terrorist actions in the North Caucasus republics and elsewhere in Russia.

Don’t look for another explanation for what’s happening, and be ready for even more terrible – much more terrible – terrorist strikes. Perhaps even the rumors about “nine nuclear suitcases stolen from former Soviet armories in the beginning of the 1990s, purchased by terrorists and installed in key points in Moscow for X hour” are not groundless.s

The 9/11 terrorist attacks were a blessing for Putin & Co. After 9/11, he formally joined the “world crusade against terror” and enjoys the support of Western politicians. This gives Putin and his associates an excuse to behave in a very cruel manner, to torture and murder tens of thousands of innocent people, to make millions of people – not only Chechens but also other “Kavkazians” (who don’t mix with Caucasians) and even ethnic Russians as well – the objects of intensive state-run terrorism. Correction: police-military terrorism, because the normal state no longer exists in Russia.

What is happening in Chechnya and the bordering republics is actual armed military conflict, having nothing to do with the worldwide war on terrorism, despite some ties of guerrilla leaders with al-Qaida and some presence of Arabs among Chechen guerrillas. But ethnic Russians are here as well. The flame of war now embraces the entire North Caucasus, and its sparks are falling on Moscow and elsewhere.

This conflict was initiated by Boris Yeltsin in December 1994. Putin, his successor, fueled the conflict in August-September 1999 after a series of apartment house explosions in Moscow and Volgodonsk. By the way, who was to blame for these actions? Chechen terrorists? In two Chechen wars, the Russian army and police-security forces killed more than 100,000 civilians and deeply harmed millions of them. This created a fertile ground for the emergence of many thousands of ruthless young terrorists of both sexes, who know nothing except hate and death. Their ultimate goal is to bring death from Chechnya to Moscow.

The Kremlin sowed the seeds of hatred, and now Russia deals with the harvest. A multitude of Chechen “black widows,” young women eagerly becoming suicide bombers, has evolved during the last two years into an outstanding component of terrorist-guerrilla activity. Most of them lost close relatives or were deeply insulted by Russian troops.

The North Caucasian war (not the “Chechen war” that is already going on) could continue indefinitely, because this war and related terrorist actions are extremely profitable for the Russian “ruling elite.” This group of people includes (a) corrupt “civilian” officials of all kinds who misuse money for the war itself as well as a huge financial flow for the “postwar reconstruction of Chechnya”; (b) oligarchs of all sizes, sharing the income with these officials; and (c) several thousand generals, the actual rulers of Russia now, who belong to the FSB, police, other security forces and army. The last group uses the war/terror environment for “black business” purposes and for expansion of its power as well. What to Do?

While discussing all these facts and trends, Moscow journalists and their New York colleagues could not miss the problem of “media freedom” in Russia or, more correctly, its absence.

Anna Politkovskaya, a Russian journalist famous for her truthful description of the Chechnyan war, tried to reach Beslan. Her trip ended on Sept. 2 in a hospital in Rostov-on-Don, halfway between Moscow and Beslan. According to reliable data, Anna was poisoned and remains in very grave condition. Other “Putin unfriendly” journalists trying to reach Beslan by air were involved in fighting with the police at an airdrome and had been arrested.

Russian journalists in Moscow and New York, while admitting the unacceptability of the present situation in Chechnya, cannot find a comprehensive answer to one more famous Russian question: “What to do?” However, even if they find the answer, the Kremlin won’t change its policy. That’s because the independent media’s influence on and general public opinion of the present rulers of Russia are negligible.

More important, what should America do?

First of all, to recognize the truth, which no doubt is very close to the conclusions of the Russian independent media presented above. Our administration should make the right choice based on this truth.

Dr. Alexandr V. Nemets is co-author of "Chinese-Russian Military Relations, Fate of Taiwan and New Geopolitics" and "Russian-Chinese Alliance."


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: caucasus; chechnya; conspiracy; fsb; kgb; putin; russia; waronterror
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The body of evidence that suggests that V. Putin is an enemy of freedom (and the US) continues to grow. The following passage from Nemets really jumped out at me:

"The 9/11 terrorist attacks were a blessing for Putin & Co. After 9/11, he formally joined the “world crusade against terror” and enjoys the support of Western politicians. This gives Putin and his associates an excuse to behave in a very cruel manner, to torture and murder tens of thousands of innocent people, to make millions of people – not only Chechens but also other “Kavkazians” (who don’t mix with Caucasians) and even ethnic Russians as well – the objects of intensive state-run terrorism. Correction: police-military terrorism, because the normal state no longer exists in Russia."

Russia is not our friend people, nor are they genuine partners in the War on Terror. Putin is using his newfound respectability among the Western nations to undermine US interests all over the world.

1 posted on 10/09/2004 12:42:38 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...

pings


2 posted on 10/09/2004 12:43:44 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen

I think you are wrong about that.

This is just what the pro-terror elements wants us to think. Have you forgotten about the "divide and conquer" strategy.

Russia is a valued and important ally in the War on Terror. Their interests are not 100% aligned with ours, and they haven't fully joined the Democratic Nations, but they are on the way.

Putin has done very well in taking his country towards democracy. You have to remember that Russia had 70 years of communism. Change doesn't happen overnight. They have come a long ways.

Putin wants to squash terror and I hope he succeeds.
Trying to blame Putin for the acts of the terrorists is preposterous.


3 posted on 10/09/2004 12:54:01 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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To: FearGodNotMen
Nothing Putin has done or will do, can ever justify an attack on a school on the first day of school.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse105.xml

Don't blame the victims.

4 posted on 10/09/2004 12:57:58 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FearGodNotMen

Spin happens on both sides of an issue - sadly -

Considering what has happened to the "media" in the US - one can't help but wonder if the same exact thing has happened to media outlets in other countries as well -


just my thoughts -


5 posted on 10/09/2004 12:58:28 PM PDT by Pastnowfuturealpha
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To: FairOpinion
Russia is a valued and important ally in the War on Terror.

That's exactly right. "Uncle Joe" Stalin was our ally when we needed him to fight a bigger threat. Without him, we would have lost WWII. We don't intend to lose the war on terror.

"The enemy hopes they can hide until we tire. But we're going to prove them wrong. We will never tire, and we will hunt them down. We will fight these evil ones, and we will win."
President Bush addressing the 101st Airborne, November 21, 2001

6 posted on 10/09/2004 1:04:16 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FreedomCalls

Putin was also helpful to President Bush, when he made it public ( which of course the US MSM worked hard to ignore), that Russian intelligence agents reported that Saddam was sending terrorists to the US after the 9-11 attacks. (Putin passed the info to Bush at the time).


Russia 'warned U.S. about Saddam'
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warning/

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian intelligence services warned Washington several times that Saddam Hussein's regime planned terrorist attacks against the United States, President Vladimir Putin has said.

The warnings were provided after September 11, 2001 and before the start of the Iraqi war, Putin said Friday.

The planned attacks were targeted both inside and outside the United States, said Putin, who made the remarks during a visit to Kazakhstan.

"I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received ... information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations," Putin said.


7 posted on 10/09/2004 1:08:36 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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To: FreedomCalls

ping


8 posted on 10/09/2004 1:10:19 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: FearGodNotMen

How stupid I am... I thought Moslem terrorists were responsible.


9 posted on 10/09/2004 1:10:45 PM PDT by WayneM (Remember; "Saturday people first. Sunday people next.")
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To: FearGodNotMen
WHO is Alexandr Nemets?

What are his credentials?

10 posted on 10/09/2004 1:19:13 PM PDT by iconoclast (Conservative, not partisan)
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To: WayneM; All

It would seem that there is a significant number of otherwise well-meaning conservatives who are falling in love with Putin. As I have pointed out many times before...whether Putin is building subs for the drug-running Marxist FARC terrorists, or whether Putin is providing lists of assassins for Saddam to employ against Europeans, or whether Putin provides night vision goggles, anti-tank missiles, and GPS jamming equipment to better kill our troops with, or whether Putin builds up Iran's nuclear capability in order to intimidate and threaten Israel, other Arab countries, and Europe, or whether Putin provides MIGs and flight training to the Communist dictator of Venezuela to be used against his hapless Latin American neighbors, or whether Putin has worked overtime at disrupting our long-cherished alliances in Europe, or whether he consistently opposes the US in the UN...I always find a significant number of conservatives who are willing to defend this KGB-President. Go figure.


11 posted on 10/09/2004 1:23:38 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: iconoclast

iconoclast wrote:

WHO is Alexandr Nemets?
What are his credentials?




From Newsmax...

Dr. Alexandr Nemets

Alexandr Nemets was born in Moscow in 1955. He studied at the Moscow Institute of Steel and Alloys, where he received a B.S. degree as a specialist in industry automation in 1978 and an M.S. degree as a data base developer in 1983. From 1978 to 1986, he worked as a programmer, at the same time studying Chinese and Japanese.

From 1986 to1992, he worked at the Presidium of Academy of Sciences USSR as an expert on the economic and technological development of China and Japan. During this period he published several dozen articles and booklets in the Soviet scientific media.

In 1991, Dr. Nemets defended his Ph.D. thesis, "Science-intensive sectors in the Chinese economy," at the Central Economic-Mathematical Institute, Academy of Sciences USSR and received a Ph.D. degree in 1992.

In 1989-93, Dr. Nemets undertook seven trips to the vast region between Lake Baikal and Beijing. In 1994 he emigrated to the United States, working at the University of Minnesota in 1995.

From 1996 to 2000, Dr. Nemets was a consultant to Science Applications International Corp. and published several hundred research reports related to China and Russia.

From 2000 to 2002, Dr. Nemets was a consultant to the American Foreign Policy Council and other governmental and non-governmental organizations in Washington, D.C.


12 posted on 10/09/2004 1:26:41 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: WayneM

Really, why does everyone forget it is the "TERRORIST" who are doing the killing. Blame the correct target the "TERRORIST".


13 posted on 10/09/2004 1:34:07 PM PDT by processing please hold
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To: FreedomCalls

Freedom Calls wrote: Nothing Putin has done or will do, can ever justify an attack on a school on the first day of school...Don't blame the victims.




Who said I was blaming the victims? BTW, putting the Beslan massacre aside for the moment, there is a disturbing body of evidence that suggests the FSB (formerly KGB) has itself committed terrorist acts against their own citizens. Here is one, amongst many examples that could be given.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/question_putin.htm


14 posted on 10/09/2004 1:36:30 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen

We have no alliance with Europe. They, the Europeans valued their pocketbooks more than America. Putin is former KGB. I know--but he is the lesser of two evils when it comes to terrorism. Much the way Stalin was the lesser of two evils when compared to Hitler.


15 posted on 10/09/2004 1:37:33 PM PDT by processing please hold
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To: FearGodNotMen
Thank you.

But I still (after extensive web searching) have little or no idea from where he is coming politically???

16 posted on 10/09/2004 1:39:05 PM PDT by iconoclast (Conservative, not partisan)
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To: iconoclast

Although this is no garauntee, the fact that he is writing for Newsmax should be at least some indication that he sides with conservatives. Read his other articles, and you will get a flavor of where he is coming from.


17 posted on 10/09/2004 1:43:54 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen
"BTW, putting the Beslan massacre aside for the moment, ..."

That's not possible.

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

18 posted on 10/09/2004 1:44:33 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FearGodNotMen
It would seem that there is a significant number of otherwise well-meaning conservatives who are falling in love with Putin.

I'm not in love with him. Don't exaggerate. Are you in love with Shamil Basayev?

19 posted on 10/09/2004 1:45:53 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FearGodNotMen

Putin is definitely not friendly to the US in many ways, but the only people "responsible" for Beslan - and the other terrorist attacks in Russia - were the Islamic terrorists. I have read some speculation in the European press, btw, that the objective of the Islamics in Chechnya is to drive out the Russians so it can be used as a terrorist home-base - sort of an "Al Qaeda state" - to replace their former haven in Afghanistan.

This is certainly something we don't want happening, so I think it would be advisable for us to find some way of supporting at least some aspects of Russia's fight against Muslim terrorists. There are many rival interests in Russia (such as those who were cooperating with Saddam), and Putin is certainly not the worst of them.


20 posted on 10/09/2004 1:46:18 PM PDT by livius
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: FreedomCalls
FreedomCalls wrote: "BTW, putting the Beslan massacre aside for the moment, ..."
That's not possible.

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

LOL, perhaps that didn't come out right. Touche!
22 posted on 10/09/2004 1:50:59 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: pbrown

pbrown wrote: "We have no alliance with Europe. They, the Europeans valued their pocketbooks more than America. Putin is former KGB. I know--but he is the lesser of two evils when it comes to terrorism. Much the way Stalin was the lesser of two evils when compared to Hitler."

I completely disagree. The Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse during the lead-up to WWII. He was facing massive rebellions by ethnic minorities all over the USSR. Nor was Stalin the lesser of two evils, as the bloody history of the millions he murdered attests. We should have let the Soviets and the Germans bleed each other, and then we should have followed the advice of Gen. Patton and finished-off the Soviets immediately after Germany's defeat. Roosevelts capitulation at Yalta was a national disgrace.


23 posted on 10/09/2004 1:58:03 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen
Good work, the only Aleksandr Nemets I could find was a blatnoy singer from Chelyabinsk ;-)
24 posted on 10/09/2004 1:58:33 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

Thanks. It was listed at the bottom of his list of articles, so it was easy.


25 posted on 10/09/2004 2:01:21 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: pbrown

Yeah! The 9-11 hijackers weren't Russians!


26 posted on 10/09/2004 2:12:06 PM PDT by rennatdm
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To: FreedomCalls
BTW, putting the Beslan massacre aside for the moment, ..." That's not possible. "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Thanks I needed that. Very,very good.

These people ask us to ignore all these dead and maimed children and these poor misunderstood "freedom fighters" and say, let me tell you who the real bad guys are.

I went through the cold war and I believe I'll take Russia as an enemy any day upside these Islamic butchers who have absolutely no respect for human life in any form even their own children must less ours.

Anything or anyone who stands in the way of their goal of world domination they will destroy.

Putin only has the nuclear weapons to destroy us.

These insane animals will use them, even if it means they have to die to so.

Their is only two choices here. Kill them first or die.

27 posted on 10/09/2004 2:21:56 PM PDT by mississippi red-neck ( Knowledge and truth does not come wrapped in sheepskin. It comes to those that seek it.)
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To: mississippi red-neck
I look at Putin and al-Qaeda as two components of a larger global problem.
28 posted on 10/09/2004 2:40:53 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen
I see Putin and Russia as a crippled bear with occupied with their own problems.

Yes we do need to keep an eye on them, but they have never been crazed to the point that they would destroy themselves to prove a point.

If they had there would be no planet today.

However these crazed Islamics have proved time and time again, all around the world just what they are willing to do to force their religious cult and system of law, {which is one and the same} on the rest of the world.

This is the most dangerous real and immediate threat.

29 posted on 10/09/2004 3:03:05 PM PDT by mississippi red-neck ( Knowledge and truth does not come wrapped in sheepskin. It comes to those that seek it.)
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To: mississippi red-neck

I appreciate your comment. But it can't be denied that Russia arms the countries that arm and provide safe-haven for the terrorists. Look into it for yourself, and you quickly realize what I am talking about. Moreover, they oppose just about everything we do to fight the War on Terror. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution IMHO.


30 posted on 10/09/2004 3:20:28 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen
"This conflict was initiated by Boris Yeltsin in December 1994. Putin, his successor, fueled the conflict in August-September 1999 after a series of apartment house explosions in Moscow and Volgodonsk.

Notice the AFTER..

Who are we to dismiss the AFTER?

31 posted on 10/09/2004 3:41:57 PM PDT by Unemployed Capitalist
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To: Unemployed Capitalist

Unemployed Capitalist, please see the following link re: the apartment bombings. It might alter your perspective a little. Either way, I welcome your comments.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/question_putin.htm


32 posted on 10/09/2004 3:56:33 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen

My ignorance shows... :0(

The only problem with your link is that I don't know the sources in the article. Need to do more research. Any direction?


33 posted on 10/09/2004 4:29:01 PM PDT by Unemployed Capitalist
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To: Unemployed Capitalist

Just do a simple search, such as "Putin Terror FSB." Sooner or later you are bound to run into articles that expose FSB provocations. In the meantime, I'll dig up some of my links and send them to you when I have a chance. BTW, I'd explore his entire website (I promise, it will be time well spent!). He is the brilliant author of a number of books on intel. and other topics. He is especially adept at catching the errors that the NY Times regularly makes, but never retracts.


34 posted on 10/09/2004 4:36:33 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen

BTW, my post was not an endorsement of Putin or his "government". It was in response to our ability to question a man on his response to a terrorist attack. Still, I need to do my research (engage my brain) before I post.


35 posted on 10/09/2004 4:36:39 PM PDT by Unemployed Capitalist
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To: Unemployed Capitalist

Me too. I sometimes get over-zealous and pull facts out of my head that are almost correct, but just enough to give my opponents the ammo they need to pounce. What can I say, we live and learn. Thanks for keeping an open mind.


36 posted on 10/09/2004 4:38:49 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen
Russia is a very very slow steam powered train moving slowly in the right direction. It is interesting see how this has been moving in this one direction for over 300 years with the reforms of Peter the great. Ever time I get depressed about Russia I always remember that they continue to move toward democracy. It is frustrating because we Americans want them to change over night, but this is impossible for Russia, this is a very old society. It is interesting to read the soviet constitution and understand that the Bolshevik revolution really didn't change things very much from the time of the tzars, but the train keeps slowly moving. Sometimes it seems it is going in reverse, but it isn't. It is moving forward.
37 posted on 10/09/2004 5:02:52 PM PDT by manx
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To: Unemployed Capitalist

U. Capitalist, the following website was recommended to me if you want more info. on FSB terrorism.

http://eng.terror99.ru/


38 posted on 10/09/2004 5:09:34 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: manx

Hi Manx,

I would also like to suggest that you take a look at the websites I posted above. I would love to hear your thoughts. They'll take a little while to get through, but I think you will find it worthwhile (even if you disagree). Are you in "Freezing my butt off" Russia yet???


39 posted on 10/09/2004 5:12:26 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FreedomCalls
Some of these idiots are also blaming the US policies for 9/11. Muslim terror is going to stay with us unless 1) we recognize that Muslims intend to convert the world to Islam, and STOP them, or 2) We recognize that the hate comes directly from Islam and work with the Islamic leaders to reform that religion.

If the Muslims do not reform their religion, and our people don't understand it is the religion ITSELF that is causing all the violence, them we will chase our tails for decades.

40 posted on 10/09/2004 5:22:05 PM PDT by philosofy123
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To: FearGodNotMen
FGNM

I don't disagree with you, but maybe I am becoming non-committal. I am rabidly American and patriotic which means I am quite a scandal to Russians. I hope Bush wins, otherwise when I go to Russia, probably for the new year holidays, my Russians friends will be gloating that Bush made major mistakes in Iraq. And it will be painful to have Kerry kissing up to all of Europe, including Russia.

All the facts regarding the Ryazan explosives seem to be true. The only question is whether you believe it could have been an exercise as the FSB later claimed. I find this very hard to believe. On the other hand the Chechnyans have clearly gone out of control.

I just have a hard time taking a side in this any more. It is impossible to tell Russians that their children are being killed because they killed so many people in Chechnia. I supported the chechnians in their revolution and followed it avidly, but it seems they have gone too far.

I also think there are elements in the Russian government who are butchers, have never accepted democracy and continue to use all the methods they learned during the cold war to combat it, even if it means using these methods against their own people.

This is sad, because I have personal relations with russians who are fiercely patriotic, and sit worried by their TV sets trying to determine what is happening in their government. It isn't like here where we worry if liberals will take over. They worry whether their entire system will go to hell, which is a very real possibility. They, like us, want to believe their government is always right, but are always faces with these failures and a government of indifference. I am still trying to figure Putin out. I can't tell if he is a practical reformist or a man who craves the power of the tzars. You can never tell.

41 posted on 10/09/2004 5:36:23 PM PDT by manx
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To: FearGodNotMen; Admin Moderator
Who said I was blaming the victims? BTW, putting the Beslan massacre aside for the moment, there is a disturbing body of evidence that suggests the FSB (formerly KGB) has itself committed terrorist acts against their own citizens. Here is one, amongst many examples that could be given.

I see you joined FR 10/5/04. Here we see the same disinformation from another one of the friends of Chechen terrorists who post on FR. Time after time I have seen this individual post under another name doing everything in his power to discredit the Russian government.
42 posted on 10/09/2004 6:15:54 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: manx
Hi Manx, thanks for your response. Did you check out the Terror-99 website as well? Very disturbing stuff. Personally, I think Putin is using the Moscow Patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) to dupe Russians into supporting him. If you do an extensive search on the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCA), you will see that the official ROC is subverting historic doctrine by pushing ecumenism, etc. Moreover, they are harassing the ROCA all over the world, up to and including, seizing ROCA property through the application of diplomatic pressure on various foreign governments ("We are the rightful heirs to ROCA property, etc). Very sad. It is rapidly becoming clear to me that the Moscow Patriarchate is the imitation, and the persecuted ROCA is the real deal. Any comments, corrections, or new info. would be most appreciated. I look forward to your reply.
43 posted on 10/09/2004 6:19:31 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen
Regarding whether Russia is a friend or foe, they are too weak to be our enemy. I think this fact is what is killing most Russians. Their birth rate is well below the mortality rate. Russians think people with more than one or two kids are uncivilized. They only have a population of 150 million. Their army is rusting away faster than it is built.

This is all very good for the Russian people, in my view, because it forces their government to make friend with the west, democratize and modernize. They do have growing oil production but the are somewhat dependant on the west for technology to exploit this.

For the average Russian on the street the last thing they want is to be subservient to the west. They still have this pride of being a powerful soviet power. Putin plays to this pride by announcing grand military plans, but it is mostly a facade to gain support.

The whole issue of France, Germany and Russia opposing our activities is simply a political game to drive up national pride and democratic support. There is no power behind it whatsoever.

I find Russians to be crazy, because they seem obsessed with defying the US and they cheer China's rise to power because they see this as some validation that communism may still work. They don't consider the fact that china is right on their border, and most nuclear proliferation is coming in small states along their border, and it is far more likely they will be harmed by these events rather than by anything the US does.

However, they still have the mentality that we are their primary rival so they are eager to see us fail. I have had this argument many times with Russians, but they think we are just rednecks and cowboys and know nothing. It is the European mentality all over again, but they also have this asian influence which means change comes much slower.

44 posted on 10/09/2004 6:20:11 PM PDT by manx
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To: FearGodNotMen
Moreover, they oppose just about everything we do to fight the War on Terror.

I know for a fact that is a bald-faced lie. Russia does have its own interests, but they have helped us in many areas behind the scenes.
45 posted on 10/09/2004 6:22:35 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc

"I see you joined FR 10/5/04. Here we see the same disinformation from another one of the friends of Chechen terrorists who post on FR. Time after time I have seen this individual post under another name doing everything in his power to discredit the Russian government."

It's called freedom of speech, pal. If you wish to refute my info., feel free. That's the way we do things here in America--the greatest country on God's green earth.


46 posted on 10/09/2004 6:23:01 PM PDT by FearGodNotMen
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To: FearGodNotMen

Interesting!

Seems some days the more things change the more they stay the same.

Maybe Saddam will spill the beans in his upcoming trial...

I do not envy Putin, however, I do not trust him either.


47 posted on 10/09/2004 6:29:05 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: FreedomCalls
Nothing Putin has done or will do, can ever justify an attack on a school on the first day of school. Don't blame the victims.

Your right, AND nothing that the Chechen terrorists have done could justify the killing(if true) of 100,000 Chechen civilians.

There's plenty of innocent-killing blame to go around.

48 posted on 10/09/2004 6:30:11 PM PDT by FreeReign ( Ya panimAyu kAzhdoye tvoyO slOvo)
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To: FreedomCalls

"That's exactly right. "Uncle Joe" Stalin was our ally when we needed him to fight a bigger threat. Without him, we would have lost WWII. We don't intend to lose the war on terror."


Stalin was never, never, ever our ally!


49 posted on 10/09/2004 6:36:22 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: FearGodNotMen; Admin Moderator; GarySpFc

Good posts GearGodNotMen. Keep posting.


50 posted on 10/09/2004 6:40:17 PM PDT by FreeReign ( Ya panimAyu kAzhdoye tvoyO slOvo)
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