Posted on 10/16/2004 2:14:28 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
I had a job interview for a contract position this past Wednesday. (It was with a Fortune 20 company.)
The department typically outsources its development work to India, to a group of eight Indian programmers. I was told they spent 10 weeks training this group of people. When deadlines get really tight they will hire a contractor here in the US to help out with the work.
The director I interviewed with told me not to expect to be offered a full time position -- it was short term temp only. He specifically told me he has to keep his shop in India busy before he can hire any American worker here in the States.
This amazes me since the company is doing extremely well and has very deep pockets.
I think the Republicans really have taken the wrong position on this issue. Not that the Dems are entirely right either.
Now, since I have no choice but to vote for Pres. Bush, due to the possibly shaping of the Supreme Court by the next President, my vote hasn't been lost.
But imagine the hoards of Information Technology people in my position who have other priorities -- Think they are gonna vote for Bush? I don't think so. The blue collars have taken up this fight and it's hurting George Bush in NJ, PA, and OH. With PA looking like a race that will hinge on less than 1% of the vote, every vote counts.
I fear that this issue, though small in nature, could very well cost Bush the Presidency -- and it's his own doing.
Denying that outsourcing is a problem is the worst thing the Republicans could have done -- and it's exactly what they did.
That and the open borders problem are not pluses...good luck with the job search.
Outsourcing was and is not a Republican invention. It started years ago with the LIBERAL enviromentalists.
factories were closed and moved overseas where they could pollute at will, rather than be fined here.
I don't see how Bush bears any responsibility for this.
Today's world market allows for this free trade. The way to combat this is to buy AMERICAN whenever possible.
OK, that's IT. I'm voting for Kerry. He doesn't like outsourcing, either! Whoops, forgot about the Heinz thingie, and phone banks in Canada calling voters in the U.S.
Not to be unsympathetic to you, and my job as a transcriptionist has the high potential to be outsourced and I could be out of a job, but I don't think this will cost President Bush the presidency.
What could possibly make anyone think that Kerry would
actually DO anything about this, except make it worse.
The problem isn't that companies are at liberty to outsource,
it's the tax/regulatory/liability factors on-shore that
motivate them to do so. Democrats caused almost all of
the problems, and will just add to it.
Out-sourcing has been going on since about 1950, when
it began in earnest with the merchant marine. To the
extent that there is an actual problem that needs to
be solved, it's making the US a more attractive place
to locate and hire, not more complicated and expensive.
I don't think anyone's denied it's a problem...they've said it often gets exaggerated. Kerry is just disingenuous enough to claim he can do something to stop it.
A very large oil company in Texas has outsourced some jobs lately to India and Canada. Everyone I've talked to is voting for Kerry because they blame Bush for losing their jobs. They think one of the richest companies in the world sold us out for a few dollars an hour. I'm not altogether unhappy, I've been thinking about a career change for a while now. And I still believe "W" is for Women!
I'm in the high tech sector and your assertion is false. I've used India programmers for bulk work, but to get detailed systems done, US programmers are still the call. To bad so many US programmers are still living in the fantasy world of the 90's when the ridiculous inflated salaries and hourly wages ruled. Programmers brought it on themselves by refusing to work for $50 per hour ($100k per year rate). I had idiots doing Visual Basic turning me down, insisting on $125 per hour ($250k per year rate)!!! I own the company and I don't make that kind of money. It's called capitalism and there are thousands of programming jobs out there in every city. Go get one.....
And the Dems will help this by raising taxes and increasing health care costs? Or will they do it by blocking tort reform? Ah...maybe they'll do it via increased regulation.
Seriously, the outsourcing began in the 90s and then Dems couldn't care less. the supposed "tax loophole" is not a loophole at all and is so insignificant it won't make a dent in the outsourcing situation.
The only solution is to foster a favorable business environment (ie lower taxes, less regulation) here.
So what do you propose to stop outsourcing?
If outsourcing is such a problem, why is the local ClientLogic call center holding job fairs every other weekend? I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but I'm not surprised. Outsourcing is happening. No argument there. Still, there are tons of IT jobs open here in the states, it's just a matter of where to look and how far you're willing to go to get them.
My $0.02, anyway...
bump
Good idea on the surface but since fewer and fewer American goods are available, it doesn't translate into reality unless a person is willing to go barefoot and naked.
??? Explain. And I cannot stomach Lou Dobbs.
Here is just one of 50 pages from Monster.com, Big boys don't cry, they go get a job!
Oct 16 Programmer Analyst / Application Developer
Cairo Corporation US-VA-Fairfax
Oct 16 Sr. Programmer Analyst
MR/Ovid US-MA-Norwood
Oct 16 GUI Programmer using Java and Eclipse
Modis, Inc. US-TX-Houston
Oct 16 MVS Systems Performance Programmer
Keane, Inc. US-NJ-Central
Oct 16 Programmer Analyst - Business Applications
Precision Response US-FL-Miami
Oct 16 Java Software Programmer
Austin International, Inc. US-NC-York, SC
Oct 16 Programmer Analyst - Business Applications
Precision Response US-FL-Miami
Oct 16 Programmer/Analyst
Tempur-Pedic US-KY-Lexington
Oct 16 Progress Database Programmer
Volt Services US-NM-Albuquerque
Oct 16 Programmer Analyst
Volt Services US-MA-Chicopee
Oct 16 Programmer/Analyst-Business
Volt Services US-PA-Philadelphia
Oct 16 Programmer/Analyst-Business
Volt Services US-PA-Philadelphia
Oct 16 VB/VB.net programmer
Kforce, Professional Staffing US-CA-Los Angeles
Oct 16 VB/VB.net programmer
Kforce, Professional Staffing US-NM-Albuquerque
Oct 15 MVS Systems Programmer
CIBER, Inc. US-WA-Seattle
Oct 15 Lead Programmer/Analyst - Seibel
Manpower Professional US-AL-Birmingham
Oct 15 Programmer/Analyst
Volt Services US-CA-Sacramento
Oct 15 PC PROGRAMMER
Manpower Professional US-IN-Columbus
Oct 15 Programmer
Manpower Professional US-NC-Research Triangle Park
Oct 15 Programmer
Manpower Professional US-AR-Little Rock
Oct 15 Programmer Writer
Volt Services US-WA-Redmond
Oct 15 Sybase Programmer - Fixed Income
Manpower Professional US-NY-New York
Oct 15 Programmer Analyst
Futuredontics, Inc. US-CA-Los Angeles
Oct 15 AS/400 Programmer Analyst - Exciting Florida Opportunity!
AS/400 Personnel Agency, Inc. US-FL-Jacksonville
Oct 15 Programmer/Analyst - Consultant Needed In San Diego!
AS/400 Personnel Agency, Inc. US-CA-San Diego
Oct 15 C++ Programmer
Manpower Professional US-AR-Little Rock
Oct 15 Sr. Systems Programmer
Kenexa US-ID-Boise
Oct 15 Sr. Programmer
Sony Online Entertainment US-CA-San Diego
Oct 15 C# / .Net Programmer
CreditSights US-NY-New York
Oct 15 Senior Programmer - Fox Pro
Manpower Professional US-WI-Whitewater
Oct 15 Programmer- Mid Level
General Employment US-TX-Houston
Oct 15 AS/400 Computer Programmer
Uline US-IL-Chicago
Oct 15 AS/400 Computer Programmer
Uline US-IL-Chicago North
Oct 15 AS/400 Computer Programmer
Uline US-IL-Chicago Northwest
Oct 15 Senior Programmer Analyst
The Computer Merchant US-NJ-Jersey City
Oct 15 Lotus Notes 6.5 Programmer/System Administrator
Strategic Staffing Solutions US-PA-Philadelphia
Oct 15 Sr. Programmer Analyst - WMS
KELLOGG COMPANY US-IL-Elmhurst
Oct 15 Programmer Analyst - Financial Planning and Reporting
KELLOGG COMPANY US-IL-Elmhurst
Oct 15 PROGRAMMER
Spherion US-TX-San Antonio
Oct 15 Programmer Analyst
RCM Technologies US-CA-Sacramento
Oct 15 Web Designer/Programmer
Modern Process Equipment US-IL-Chicago
Oct 15 Pro-Engineering Programmer/Design Engineer
Continental/Midland, LLC US-IL-Chicago South
Oct 15 PLC Programmer
Management Recruiters Intntl US-IL-Statewide
Oct 15 RPG Programmer Analyst
Management Recruiters Intntl US-IL-Statewide
Oct 15 Database Programmer
Hudson Legal US-NY-New York City
Oct 15 Database Programmer
Hudson Legal US-NY-New York City
Oct 15 IVR Programmer
Hudson IT & Telecommunications US-NC-Raleigh/Durham-RTP
Oct 15 Programmer
FAIR FINANCE US-OH-Akron
Oct 15 Senior Programmer Analyst- Mercator Integrations
Yoh IT US-PA-Allentown
Let me speak as an employer, and someone who is considering doing exactly what your future employer is doing right now.
Outsourcing is not the problem, it's a painful symptom of a much more serious ailment.
In America, today, employers are afraid.
They should be.
We've developed a climate where hiring an employee is a major risk. All it takes is for one dishonest employee to cry harassment, or injury, and your entire business is at risk.
We're afraid to hire, but we're even more afraid to fire. At the point you terminate someone, you've made yourself vulnerable to a litany of litigation.
This is an extremely hostile climate.
The liberal politicians created it, supposedly to protect the American worker.
Unfortunately, the opposite effect has occurred.
Rather than risk their businesses, sane American businesses have shipped jobs overseas to friendlier locales.
If we address the fundamental problems of the American workplace, outsourcing will quickly become a non-issue.
Griz
Like you I have no doubt many Republicans are on the wrong side of this issue. However, the ones most concerned with this problem are Republicans like Tom Tancredo. I will continue to send money to Tom and anyone else I hear that is trying to do something about outsourcing.
There is no way I'll vote for Hanoi John. All he does is lie anyway. His wife's company outsources and he has no intention of helping.
I don't trust Kerry on defense and believe that the President's primary duty is to defend this country against her enemies. 70% of the military supports President Bush and I do not want to see Kerry in charge of the military.
Also we will have better judges under President Bush.
I intend to stay involved in the issue of outsourcing.
The economy is getting better and some of my friends in the tech industry are finally starting jobs again. I have had two jobs since my layoff, one a contract and one direct. They paid better than I was making before the layoff three years ago, but I had to leave my family and move out of town both times.
I get the feeling that some companies are starting to rethink this whole idea of outsourcing their technical jobs. The product quality is not what they had promised their shareholders.
By the way, I took the last contract home with me. It probably won't last a whole lot longer, but it is nice to work from home.
And what makes you think Bush will appoint a conservative to the court?
The problem with "outsourcing" is really the problem of the newly emerging global corporatism. The only way to stop this would be for the US government to impose draconian laws on corporate America to prevent them from ferreting out work to foreign citizens. Problem is, if these laws were adopted most global corporations would just move their HQ's abroad and cease pretending they are US companies.
It is a fact that Indian programmers and developers cost around 20 bucks an hour and US employees cost upwards of 100 an hour. It is the duty of corporate officers to deliver the best service at the lowest cost in order to produce the largest revenues to its employees and shareholders. This is why most of the products at KMART are Chinese and a lot of the IT and call center personnel are located in India.
That said, take heart. I do not see this problem being around too long. Why? Because the perceived gains of outsourcing are readily being negated by outsourcing. Dell computers recently fired its' Indian call center, BECAUSE THEIR CUSTOMERS COULD NOT STAND TALKING TO THESE FOREIGN BORN PEOPLE. Also, my experience with using Indian developers has led me to believe that the perceived "cheapness" disappears after you take into account the hidden costs. These are 1) Indian developers do not produce quality code (it requires many cycles of rework and often, needs US high priced programmers to get it working 2) The time difference and the distance between the team and the US manager produces variance with regards to meeting the customer requirements (this means that the final code does not meet all the customer requirements because it was produced in a vacuum without the daily oversight of the US based project manager.
Also, take into account that every quarter the cost of foreign workers is going up. Within a few years the cost will not be much of a draw for US companies given the higher failure rate that foreign teams create.
This outsourcing scheme is being adopted so furiously precisely because corporate America has refused to acknowledge that our economy is no longer an industrial one. They still behave and plan as if it were an industrial economy. So, the only way to continue to make profits using their current corporate culture is to find cheaper workers. But this is a short term strategy. Their time is running out. Ultimately they will have nowhere left to find cheap workers as foreign workers become more like American workers. I give them 5 years.
I recommend you politely thank the interviewer and tell him you are not interested in the job.
You'll find a job elsewhere. My guess is they'll have an opening available for quite a while, considering his remarks.
Good luck,
Papa Joe
That's a little hard to believe that Visual Basic programmers were insisting on $125 an hour.
I've done embedded programming and application programming, Linux, Windows, OS/2, and other operating systems. I'm mostly a C++ programmer, but can adopt to other languages when necessary. I've been in the business many years and have worked in the Northeast, West, South and and Southeast and I've never seen anything like thay type of salary for a Visual Basic programmer.
There were some specialized programmers that were making some very high rates, but as soon as there were more programmers entering those particular areas the rates dropped.
The key difference is that despite the fact he won't and can't actually do anything significantly different about it, John F'n Kerry talks a good talk about reducing outsourcing and that has major populist appeal to folks who don't know any better.
Bush's campaign made a major mistake letting the Dims have this issue without some of the same sort of empty feel good words about reducing the bleeding coming from our side. The only reason this isn't killing us is because the Dim platform is insane in enough other ways for us to change the subject.
That's part of it. Also a big part of it is health care costs. The custom in America is for employers to pay for their employee's health insurance. This puts American businesses at a disadvantage because the costs have zoomed upwards. I think the solution is to have a system that allows workers to buy their own insurance (right now, individuals with any pre-existing conditions can pretty much forget about finding coverage).
Other industrial countries have some sort of state run health system. Businesses can be competitive because taxpayers (workers) pay the high taxes such systems require. But the downside is state-run systems tend to suck (they ration things, so you have to wait for months or even years for proceedures such as bypasses or cataracts).
Company A makes widgets in the USA. With high wages, environmental regs, EEO requirements, and trial lawyers picking it apart, it can sell its widgets for $1 each. Company B, also located here, makes equal-quality widgets in China and can sell them for 50 cents each. Nobody buys Company A's widgets, everyone is fired, and it goes out-of-business. Company A could still be in business if it had been smart enough to make its widgets somewhere else.
Now, since I have no choice but to vote for Pres. Bush, due to the possibly shaping of the Supreme Court by the next President, my vote hasn't been lost.
And what makes you think Bush will appoint a conservative to the court?
Still here beating the wacko Hard Right drum I see Wille.
I would have hoped this guy would have told the guy to stuff it, try China to fill your temporary India labor pool.
At some point these CEO's will figure out they the more technology jobs they fill by foreign companies, the more they lose control of their companies.
At some point in time, the microsoft's and Oracles and others will see their software being copyied and stolen by these very same Indian companies. Also, other industries, Drugs etc will suffer the same type loss and control of their companies.
Once these guys see the writting on the wall they will scurry around trying to fill their technical positions from a non existant work pool.
Just hang in for a little longer and you will see a great demand to refill those positions that were lost by foreign labor.
So what do you propose to stop outsourcing?>>>>>>
Outsourcing began in a gradual manner. First we outsourced our tv and electronics industry. Then 50% of our auto industry. ETC.
The only way to stop "outsourcing" is to have tariffs.
We use the revenue gained from the tariffs to reduce internal taxes.
Yes, the cost of some goods will go up initially, but people will be making so much more money they will be able to easily afford the additional cost.
I'm glad the issue got brought up, no reason Bush couldn't address it at some point in the future...
This site talks about such things: http://www.techsunite.org/
>>>We're afraid to hire, but we're even more afraid to fire. At the point you terminate someone, you've made yourself vulnerable to a litany of litigation.
It's really quite easy to fire someone, and not get sued. The key is documentation.
Outsourcing (or at least replacing people with technology)has been going on for a long, long time, and it's part of the American way of life.
Now knowledge work is being outsourced. Especially if it can be codified and standardized.
It's called a GLOBAL MARKET ECONOMY.
Become an expert in more valued-added stuff--especially creating wealth. That cannot be oursourced.
I know it's a challenge. I'm in a similar boat.
It´s such an easy question,
Why can´t I get an answer?~ E. Presley, March 18, 1962
Outsourcing does not bother me very much... am I the only one? It is incumbent on you as an applicant in the job market to develop a skill set that makes you valuable to an employer. I have never heard of an employer who desires to lose money by choosing between the most expensive of two employees.
What DOES scare me is the subconscious undertone of many Americans who think it is President Bush's job, or the government's job, to provide them with employment. This lie is being constantly perpetuated by the MSM and nearly and my fear is that the American public will begin to buy more and more into it.
This is not Bush's fault! In case you forgot, this has been going on since NAFTA and very heavily during the Clinton era. It is from both sides of the aisle and it is something new that this country is going to have to figure out a way to deal with.
Greedy corporations do not like this country. Pat Buchanan wrote about it in his book. They like global because they can escape regulations and hire for minimal wage. The country has just not caught up yet in how to deal with this matter. It is not fair of you, because of your personal situation, to lay this at the feet of the President. Temping is awful. They have been doing this to the factory and lower skilled folks for years. Now they are hitting the high tech. Something needs to be done but it is going to take both sides of the aisle to fix it.
"That said, take heart. I do not see this problem being around too long. Why? Because the perceived gains of outsourcing are readily being negated by outsourcing. Dell computers recently fired its' Indian call center, BECAUSE THEIR CUSTOMERS COULD NOT STAND TALKING TO THESE FOREIGN BORN PEOPLE. Also, my experience with using Indian developers has led me to believe that the perceived "cheapness" disappears after you take into account the hidden costs. These are 1) Indian developers do not produce quality code (it requires many cycles of rework and often, needs US high priced programmers to get it working 2) The time difference and the distance between the team and the US manager produces variance with regards to meeting the customer requirements (this means that the final code does not meet all the customer requirements because it was produced in a vacuum without the daily oversight of the US based project manager."
I've observed the same thing. Times are getting better. I've actually know of a case where a Pakistani company didn't bother to remove the copyright notice on one American company before sending the same code to another American company.
Another company's trade secrets were stolen. That one made the news. Companies are having to pay the Americans to come back to debug the work from outsourcing. It's taking a lot longer to develop the code and the quality is not as good.
The whole outsourcing fairytale is starting to fall on it's face.
I thought Dell only fired the call center for their business clients. Don't they still outsource their home computer support? I do not plan to buy another Dell until they change their policy. We've had to go through the outsourced customer support and it is pure hell to get support. Of course Dell hasn't been worried about the little guy. They are much more concerned with their new storage products for business. This has turned out to be very lucrative for Dell and the little guy is not important to them anymore.
Now with Access and spreadsheets you can train the girls in the typing pool to do these functions. It was much different when I started, programing in assembly languages and C, fortran etc. where it would take a programmer a month or two to develop a program that now would take a few days, wrote in Visual Basic.
"If we address the fundamental problems of the American workplace, outsourcing will quickly become a non-issue."
The chance of this happening is about the same as Dan Rather telling the truth. Part of the problem you describe is visible where I work in people with six months on the job earning the same as those with twenty years in and someone who only loads trucks with a lift truck earning the same as those who have a list of duties that would fill a couple of pages of legal paper. Apparently the employer is afraid to pay people based on performance. So-called "supervisors" are really managers with zero knowledge of the job and apparently are hired for their knowledge of labor law. There are no "first line supervisors" who know every detail of the job and can train people to do it as in the old days, training is left to those who are called trainers and the result is people have to pick up what they can by bits and pieces until they can finally learn in two years what they should have learned in six months or less.
Secondly, worship at the alter of Atlas Shrugged is not the only kind of conservatism. Ranting that anything less is sickening socialist slavery will give you a new kind of Conservatism - the divided kind that loses 80-20 and will have to call John F'n Kerry "President".
>>I'm in the high tech sector and your assertion is false.
Ok, either you are calling me a liar, or you don't have an idea of the big picture here.
I was on a different job interview on Monday and I got to read the source code of the web application -- it was in Spanish (where applicable -- variables etc). Not all outsourcing goes to India.
One other job I interviewed for in the past year was for another web company with, guess what, outsourced developement in India. My role would have been to help manage the developers in India as well as to contribute to the project.
I'm not saying ALL companies have outsourced to this degree, but I was actually relaying my experience -- and for some reason you call my integrity into question.
Now, these aren't isolated situations. And quite often a bulk of the work is shipped over there, and the US programmers "pinch hit" for the companies. You may have a difference experience, but that only means the clients you deal with haven't outsourced to this degree. You don't know the ones who have since they probably don't utilize your services to begin with. (You don't know what you don't know.)
>>To bad so many US programmers are still living in the fantasy world of the 90's when the ridiculous inflated
I agree. I myself made six figures in 1999 -- it was insane.
>>salaries and hourly wages ruled. Programmers brought it on themselves by refusing to work for $50 per hour
Those kind of people will sit on the bench and not work.
It sounds like you do consulting/contract work. While you may have success, you only see the tip of the iceberg in terms of "available" jobs. Many shops do indeed outsource a bulk of their work and bring in US programmers to fill in the gaps.
>>I had idiots doing Visual Basic turning me down, insisting on $125 per hour ($250k per year rate)!!! I own the company and I don't make that kind of money.
>>It's called capitalism and there are thousands of programming jobs out there in every city. Go get one.....
Sir, what do you think I've been doing? Did you get the idea that I in fact was ACTUALLY looking for one and simply shared my experience? I mean, re-read the post and you'll see that in fact I am looking.
He must be nominating conservatives, the liberals in the Senate go nuts filibustering them.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuude, it's like, algore invented the internet - blame it on him. Both parties are to blame for outsourcing's evil twin - h1-b's, not to mention illegal immigration. No one person or party can be blamed for outsourcing - high taxes, over-regulation, lawsuits, stupid trade agreements, all contribute to the problems.
It takes great skill to fire someone so that you will never hear from them again. Very few small employers have the skills, or the money for a lawyer to watch their every move, to avoid a potential disaster when they fire someone. I've lived it and as a result I try to never hire anyone, even though I have a small business.
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