Health care system (from a Canadian)

None | 11.01.04 | "George" (kept private)

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I have edited his name out. But he lives in Ontario and winters in Florida.

I wrote him this question:

"A friend of mine supports and is convinced socialized health care is better: lower costs, no waiting, more choices of doctors..... what do you guys have in Canada?"

Here is his unedited reply...............

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: @email.net
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Health care system

I always get a kick out of my American friends when they say "I wish we had free health care like you do in Canada." Here are some truths that your friend should see before she gets what she wants.

* Canadian health care is far from free. We are the most heavily taxed nation in the G-8. That's partly because the health care system is entirely Government run and controlled. Everything we buy, every service we use, every dollar we earn is taxed to pay for our health care system. And like Liberals in the United States, Liberals here cannot help themselves from increasing taxes to pay for their "entitlements".

* Canadians wait much longer for every kind of health care with the possible exception of Emergency services than do our American cousins. Here is a good example; My Mother is taking a drug to control her irregular heart beat. She had some side effects ( some serious - nausea, dizziness, confusion etc) and was told that she would have to wait up to eight weeks to see her heart specialist before these problems could be addressed. I eventually, after researching the drug she was taking on the net, decided that she was suffering from an "over dose". I made the decision to reduce her medication by 1/3 and all the side effects vanished. Six weeks later her heart specialist said that that was exactly what he would have done.

* Canadians cannot find their own general practitioners. In this area it is estimated that over 30% of people in our area are forced to take their problems to the emergency department of the local hospital in order to receive medical care because there just aren't any doctors to accept new patients.

* Canadian doctors are streaming to the United States because they are so under paid. Hell, I make more than my doctor does! The Doctor's income level is controlled by the government and they haven't seen an increase in years.

I am a kidney stone sufferer. In order to have these stones treated I must visit a machine called a lythotripter. It is the one that smashes the stones with ultra sonic waves. In order to get to see this machine I have to wait up to six months. You see there are only three of these machines in Ontario with a population of about ten million. In a little town just across the border from here in Northern New York state there are three of these machines. The town has about 30,000 people. Something just does not add up.

Although there haven't been any studies that I know of, I suspect that Canadians are paying a comparable amount for our health care as compared to Americans. The difference is that you guys are paying up front in the form of insurance while we have our payments hidden in the form of taxation. The other difference, of course is that you guys get health services when you need them while we wait and wait and wait.......

One more example - (my wifes) brother was diagnosed with cancer of the bowel ( large intestine). It took five months to get a doctor to make a decision about surgery. Sadly, by that time it was too late.

As a victim of a government run health care system I have to say that I think that your system is closer to perfection than ours ever will be. The problem, in my ever humble opinion, with your system is that it has come to be controlled by insurance interests ( and H.M.O's) and this has driven the cost of health care ever upwards. This has an effect on Canadian health care as well when the cost of a given test or procedure rises in the United States it rises here too.

Once the insurance companies have been removed from the equation the whole question of Doctor liability must be addressed too as surely this situation is helping to drive the increase in health care costs too.

You asked! George

[TexasGreg]

Sadly, the unwashed masses won't read about the down-side of socialized medicine.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

thats why i pasted it into email and sent it out to my address book, including my liberal relatives/friends.

[Hat-Trick]

When our own government has not yet been able to successfully demonstrate it's ability to even distribute free cheese, why would we put them in charge of our nation's health care?

The list of problems that government has successfully addressed is woefully short.

[shhrubbery!]

Great post.

Btw, Kerry is out there proclaiming that his health care "plan" isn't a government run system.

Kerry promises that we'll all have a "choice," and that that choice will be one of many private insurers, such as the Cadillac of insurance policies that members of Congress get.

Question for Kerry: Won't everybody want the Cadillac instead of the Ford? And if that happens, HOW ARE WE GOING TO PAY FOR IT? (Of course the answer is, we can't.)

The truth is, Kerry's "plan" may start out as a private insurer system, but it is so unworkable it will lead to plans to scrap it all and go to "single-payer," government health care -- just what Hillary wants.

[captcanada]

I'm Canadian and if I ever get sick, I'm off to the Mayo Clinic sooooo fast!

[shhrubbery!]

The largest consumers of health care in the USA are the elderly. The largest voting bloc in the USA are the elderly. If a Canadian-style single-payer system were in place in the states, you can be sure that enough money would be lavished on it so that Canadian-style shortages and delays would not occur

You think the largest block of health consumers/voters in Canada are NOT elderly?

[doc30]

I'm a Canadian in the process of immigrating to the U.S. and I can tell you that health care in Canada is abysmal. With respect to the elderly as a voting block, tell your senior friends that my grandmother had a stroke in Canada. She waited in a hospital bed for 2 years for therapy. She died before any happened. That's the price for socialized medicine. No direct out of pocket expenses, but no professional care is provided in a timely manner.

Secondly, Canadians are so brainwashed by the mantra of universal health care that the mere mention of any form of user fees (co-pays, deductibles, etc.) creates a public outrage. The many Canadian philosophy, even believed by many conservatives, is that health care is a fundamental right and should not be a profit making enterprise. No one should get more benefits because they have more money. The Canadian system is the great, human equalizer where everyone gets the exact same care with no special provisions for the wealthy. THey need to suffer like the working poor. ANything else would be blatantly unfair.

I don't believe that cr@p, but it is the cornerstone of Canadian thinking. Don't ever let it happen here!

[RedBloodedAmerican]

If there are so many inefficiencies in the Canadian system, why has there not been an outcry for reform?

Have you ever lived in Canada?

Secondly, do you really think Canada would reform their healthcare system even if there were "inefficiencies" (which there are).

Welcome to FR.

Do you feel terrorists are a nuisance?

[Alberta's Child]

The problem, in my ever humble opinion, with your system is that it has come to be controlled by insurance interests ( and H.M.O's) and this has driven the cost of health care ever upwards.

Mr. Canadian is absolutely wrong about this. The primary factor in the dramatic escalation in health care costs has been the dramatic escalation in the quality of care and the development of new technology and treatments on an ongoing basis.

In other words, we are paying a lot more for our health care mainly because we are getting a lot more. That's why you never hear about someone buying a $45,000 SUV and then complaining that it is about eight times more expensive than the Yugo he bought 20 years ago.

[SedVictaCatoni]

2. Canada is not a dictatorship. If there are so many inefficiencies in the Canadian system, why has there not been an outcry for reform?

My guess is that the health care system has become a "taboo" political topic like Social Security in America - the so-called "third rail". So anyone who advocates radical reform is instantly branded as a fruitcake reactionary.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I knew a girl whose father developed the very first helicopter "life flight" medical evac program in North America. This was in Toronto. in the 70's

He had hoped he could have capitalized on it. But as soon as he had it operational, the Canadian Government took it over. He was penniless.

Just another example of Socialism at work. Doctors and patients will not be the only medical area affected by Kerry's health plan.

[balk]

This article is on-the-money. In addition, you can't get an MRI without waiting six months, so we have to go to Buffalo or Cleveland to get it.

[SCALEMAN]

"When our own government has not yet been able to successfully demonstrate it's ability to even distribute free cheese, why would we put them in charge of our nation's health care?"

OMG.. its too long for a tagline

[cinives]

That's somewhat true - BUT you will never know the true cost of all health services because government/medicare and insurance companies get in the way of market-led system efficiencies. The patient is cut out of the responsibility loop. There is so much defensive medicine practiced today that you don't know if a test was ordered by the doctor because of need or because of malpractice defensiveness.

As a personal aside, I have high deductible insurance, which means I do not run off to the doctor for my smallest sniffle. The yearly checkup I do go for costs me $75 out of pocket, with no insurance company hassle, or wait for payment, for the doctor. Plus I pay for these services with before-tax dollars using an HSA account. My doctor bills the insurance companies of those with low-deductible insurance $250 for the same services. What does that tell you ? Most patients are overpaying for services because of medical malpractice defensiveness and insurance company paperwork.

Bush has a good answer to health insurance proiblems with high deductible insurance coupled with HSAs.

[Stellar Dendrite]

Go back to DU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alberta's Child]

If there are so many inefficiencies in the Canadian system, why has there not been an outcry for reform?

You have to understand the Canadian mindset to answer that question. Historically, Canadians have been laid-back, timid people who never liked making waves because they relied so heavily on an altruistic outside force to support their existence. The modern Canadian welfare state has simply replaced previous versions of a "nanny" that could be counted upon to keep the supply lines open in a hostile climate -- first the Hudson's Bay Company, then the railroads, etc.

[Alberta's Child]

BUT you will never know the true cost of all health services because government/medicare and insurance companies get in the way of market-led system efficiencies.

That's right, and it's also true of any insurance-based economic transaction in which the buyer and seller do not interact directly. The only "insurance" that really works to any extent is life insurance, because of the inherent disincentive to filing a claim.