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To: TapTheSource
how on earth could he be a Christian on the one hand and raise a glass to atheistic Communist murderers like Lenin, Stalin, and Andropov on the other?

Our country was founded by folks who had the gumption to get on ships and cross oceans into the unknown, when such things had a 20% chance or higher of leading to death, to escape tyranny and injustice, so we have no idea how difficult it is for a country to change its leadership from absolute monarchy. Remember that Lenin lead the revolution against the Tsarist regime - which must have been somewhat less pleasant than the regime of Louis 14, 15, and 16, and in case you don't know how bad they were, read our founding fathers. They will tell you. Then Stalin had to deal with Hitler.

Don't get me wrong - I have no truck with Stalin or Lenin, but I'm not going to fault Putin for toasting the men who founded modern Russia.

26 posted on 11/01/2004 6:10:09 PM PST by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson

"Don't get me wrong - I have no truck with Stalin or Lenin, but I'm not going to fault Putin for toasting the men who founded modern Russia."


You think Lenin and Stalin were the founders of "modern Russia"? I might agree with you if you meant that Russia is being run by "former" Communists who just changed their party affiliations and kept on leading. I strongly suggest you read the "Black Book of Communism"! Just as Russia was beginning to modernize she was taken over by a completely alien force...not just to Russia, but alien to the entire human race. No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no private property, no free market (except the black market). Communism is anti-Human. If the Communists were bees, they would be against beehives. If they were birds, they would be against flocks and free flight. If they were beavers, they would be against dams. If they were fish, they'd be against their natural propensity to organize into schools. In other words, Communists are opposed to the way humans NATURALLY organize. Not just at the international and national level, but also the way they worship, raise their families, spend their money, organize into communities, etc. That's why they call their program REVOLUTIONARY. They seek to overthrow every last vestige of human society. The result is a vast, impoverished, prison camp where even thoughts can be criminalized, let alone actions.


31 posted on 11/01/2004 6:34:54 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: AndyJackson

"...the men who founded modern Russia".
The only sense in which one could speak of "modern" Russia is that today is November 2nd, 2004 there, just like it will be here in few hours time.
Civilizationally and culturally Russia has always been a backward communist society (from immemorial times, way before Marx), if by communism one understands a way of life - i.e. how people relate to one another and to their society, and not red banners, slogans and statues. As an aside - behaviorally our own clintons are communists.
Thus Putin (or rather Russian society of his time - he's merely a figurehead and a symbol) merely reverts to the historical and civilizational norm. "Modern" Russia does not and cannot have "founders", for "modern" Russia does not exist and has never existed.


34 posted on 11/01/2004 6:52:05 PM PST by GSlob
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