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The Founding Fathers and Deism
WallBuilders ^ | David Barton

Posted on 11/08/2004 11:41:14 AM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan

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1 posted on 11/08/2004 11:41:15 AM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan
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To: iheartusa

Bump!


2 posted on 11/08/2004 11:42:24 AM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan (BURN IN HELL, MICHAEL MOORE!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Awesome. So it is a Christian nation, indeed. Thanks. : )


3 posted on 11/08/2004 11:45:37 AM PST by iheartusa (Searching the Internet far and wide to bring you thought-provoking controversy)
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To: Tailgunner Joe; mike182d; bmorrishome; Jn316; MississippiMan; all4one

Ping!!


4 posted on 11/08/2004 11:52:17 AM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan (BURN IN HELL, MICHAEL MOORE!)
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To: iheartusa

Amen!

Most atheists are not intellectual giants, but come to their condition by way of moral dwarfism instead.


5 posted on 11/08/2004 11:52:54 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate.

Dear David Barton, the term "deist" is code for Ancient Free and Accepted Masonry. A majority of the founding fathers were masons. The 18th century enlightenment was driven by those who saw the "light" of freemasonry; the architects of the bloody French revolution derived their inspiration from the "light of Masonry. This fact is repeated on the majority of Masonic web sites and in publications.

The term "deist' also delineated the relevance of Christ in the order of things for the Elightenment crowd. Take the Christ out of Christianitiy and you have the Enlightened secular Europe that is now flushing itself down the toilet of Islamic Jihad.

6 posted on 11/08/2004 11:55:44 AM PST by i.l.e.
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Funny, My dictionary, and everything I heve ever read previously defines a "Deist" as one who has a firm, reasoned belief in God.

Deist - From Deity which is synonymous with GOD.

IMHO, this article, while interesting and may add some impetus to the argument of the USA being "A Christian Nation" , is based on a highly flawed premise.


7 posted on 11/08/2004 11:56:51 AM PST by LegendHasIt
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Therefore, the range of a deist spans from those who believe there is no God, to those who believe in a distant, impersonal creator of the universe, to those who believe there is no way to know if God exists.

I had always understood a deist to be one who believes that God is the Creator and is watching the Great Drama of Humanity unfold (and judging us according to the roles we choose to play), but does not actively intervene in the activities of humanity.

In other words, one who believes that he isn't entitled to use the excuse "It was God's will" every time something untoward happens to him.

8 posted on 11/08/2004 11:58:27 AM PST by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
David Limbaugh writes a thought provoking book called "Persecution" that takes what David Barton wrote and parallels our system of democracy with our Christianity. What he claims is that you cannot have Democracy without the free will that God grants his people. He also goes into depth discussing how the secular world tries to make Payne, Franklin, Jefferson, ect. deists. It is a great read. If you want to read the fallacy behind the separation of church and state go to www.wallbuilders.com and read about the court case- Everson v. Board of Ed.
9 posted on 11/08/2004 11:58:48 AM PST by NVD
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To: LegendHasIt

We are talking popular usage versus the dictionary here.


10 posted on 11/08/2004 12:00:27 PM PST by Drawsing (Congress doesn't need to see the light...they just need to feel the heat..Ronald Reagan)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

From my knowledge, a deist is one who believes in a god (any god--could be Christ or Allah). It seems to be a general term for someone who believes in a higher power.


11 posted on 11/08/2004 12:04:30 PM PST by NVD
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To: i.l.e.

You swung and missed.


12 posted on 11/08/2004 12:05:25 PM PST by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: VaBthang4
Many of the most distinguished leaders of the American revolution--Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Paine--were powerfully influenced by English and--to a lesser extent--French Enlightenment thought. The God who underwrites the concept of equality in the Declaration of Independence is the same deist God Rousseau worshipped, not that venerated in the traditional churches which still supported and defended monarchies all over Europe. Jefferson and Franklin both spent time in France--a natural ally because it was a traditional enemy of England--absorbing the influence of the French Enlightenment. The language of natural law, of inherent freedoms, of self-determination which seeped so deeply into the American grain was the language of the Enlightenment, though often coated with a light glaze of traditional religion, what has been called our "civil religion."

This is one reason that Americans should study the Enlightenment. It is in their bones. It has defined part of what they have dreamed of, what they aim to become. Separated geographically from most of the aristocrats against whom they were rebelling, their revolution was to be far less corrosive--and at first less influential--than that in France.

The History of the Deist Enlightenment is the history of America. http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html

13 posted on 11/08/2004 12:09:20 PM PST by i.l.e.
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Bump for your opinion...


14 posted on 11/08/2004 12:11:19 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: i.l.e.
·Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes;

·In an 1803 federal Indian treaty, Jefferson willingly agreed to provide $300 to “assist the said Kaskaskia tribe in the erection of a church” and to provide “annually for seven years $100 towards the support of a Catholic priest.” He also signed three separate acts setting aside government lands for the sole use of religious groups and setting aside government lands so that Moravian missionaries might be assisted in “promoting Christianity.”

·When Washington D. C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. President Jefferson chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol and even provided the service with paid government musicians to assist in its worship. Jefferson also began similar Christian services in his own Executive Branch, both at the Treasury Building and at the War Office.

·Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services;

·Jefferson assured a Christian religious school that it would receive “the patronage of the government”;

·Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word “God” in its motto;

·While President, Jefferson closed his presidential documents with the phrase, “In the year of our Lord Christ; by the President; Thomas Jefferson.”

Furthermore, Jefferson would especially disagree with those who believe that public prayers should be non-sectarian and omit specific references to Jesus. Jefferson believed that every individual should pray according to his own beliefs. As Jefferson explained:

[The] liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will [is] a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support. (emphasis added)

Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:

No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.
15 posted on 11/08/2004 12:19:38 PM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan (BURN IN HELL, MICHAEL MOORE!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

I think David Barton is guilty of selective reading.

I have studied Paine's writings in depth. Especially the
New Age of Reason, parts 1 and 2, wherein Paine roundly
blasts christianity, and does in fact and in word declare
himself a deist.

I usually believe what a person says about himself.


16 posted on 11/08/2004 12:20:41 PM PST by Al Gator
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To: i.l.e.
James Madison also encouraged public officials to declare openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony — as when he wrote to William Bradford (who became Attorney General under President George Washington):

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

Additionally, throughout his Presidency, Madison issued several proclamations for public days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving, [18] and like Jefferson, President Madison also attended church at the Capitol, thus publicly endorsing religion in official arenas.

So, not only did Jefferson and Madison endorse religion in the public arena, they were even willing publicly to endorse Christian prayers in the public arena rather than the bland politically-correct civic prayers desired by critics of public prayers.

The Founders on Public Religious Expression
Read Article
17 posted on 11/08/2004 12:21:57 PM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan (BURN IN HELL, MICHAEL MOORE!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
With all due respect to and appreciation for Mr. Barton I must take exception to the oft repeated myth that America's founders were Christian. Unlike those he criticizes in his letter, I have, over the past four years, read more than ten thousand pages of primary source documents (including the writings of Jefferson and Madison).

For example, in an 1831 letter to Willam Short, Jefferson wrote

"Abstracting what is really his [Jesus] from the rubbish in which it is buried [the New Testament], easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers [Matthew, Mark, Luke, John], and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill ... The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent moralist [!] and the rescuing it form the imputation of imposture, which has resulted form artificial systems, [these artificial systems Jefferson footnotes as "the immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, ... the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of Hierarchy, &c."] invented by ultra-Christian sects, unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by him, is a most desirable object, and one to which Priestly [father of Unitarianism] has successfully devoted his labors and learning."

Mr. Barton and his ilk, however sincere, produce and perpetuate myths founded on sloppy scholarship which yield careless (if not slanted) assertions.

As Christians we are obliged to speak the truth in all circumstances. The Cause of Christ is not helped when overzealous conservative writers seek to "return the nation to its biblical foundation" by doing what they so often charge liberals with -- rewriting history. The facts are what they are. The words and deeds of the leading men of the American revolution are readily accessible to any one who will take the time to search them out.

18 posted on 11/08/2004 12:23:14 PM PST by Credo_ut_intelligam
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To: JFK_Lib

Well, 5 whole posts before started insulting non-believers.


19 posted on 11/08/2004 12:23:20 PM PST by Melas
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To: LegendHasIt
In dictionaries like Websters, Funk & Wagnalls, Century, and others, the terms "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist" appear as synonyms.

As you stated Legend, this premise is RIDICULOUS. The similarities between deists and atheists are comparable to those between GWB and Michael Moore.

20 posted on 11/08/2004 12:25:19 PM PST by Shryke
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To: NVD
That would be an incorrect definition: The American Heritage Dictionary has a concise definition that is also detailed enough to be thorugh:

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

21 posted on 11/08/2004 12:25:43 PM PST by Melas
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To: Credo_ut_intelligam
Well, why don't you contact Dan Barton and voice your complaint. Then you can inform the rest of us with what was said by posting a transcript.
22 posted on 11/08/2004 12:27:42 PM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan (BURN IN HELL, MICHAEL MOORE!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
BTW I errantly typed the date of Jefferson's letter as 1831. It was actually October 31, 1819. I shouldn't try to type so fast.
23 posted on 11/08/2004 12:35:15 PM PST by Credo_ut_intelligam
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To: Al Gator
I usually believe what a person says about himself.

Do you believe what Thomas Jefferson said about himself when he said, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Many atheists, deists and Christians alike think they know Jefferson better than he knew himself.

24 posted on 11/08/2004 12:37:10 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (Born and raised in Jesusland!)
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To: All
One of my favorite reads is President George Washington's Farewell Address given in 1796. So popular it was in its day, that it was read annually in Congress and printed in childrens text books. George Washington spoke of his fellow countrymen in this way:

With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles.

George Washington was a Christian beyond doubt (a highly devout one at that) and in his own words he expressed that those around him held only slight differences in religious belief. There is no question the Founders of this nation were by-and-large Christians.

What I find disparaging to God and countrymen alike is the willingness of some people 200+ years later to dispute it.
25 posted on 11/08/2004 2:00:52 PM PST by so_real (It's all about sharing the Weather)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Thanks and may the Lord over us all bless you for posting this article..
good un


26 posted on 11/08/2004 2:33:35 PM PST by joesnuffy ("The merit of our Constitution was, not that it promotes democracy, but checks it." Horatio Seymour)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan; All

Sophistry. What this writer did was IGNORE the dictionary definition of deism, which follows:

Main Entry: de·ism
Pronunciation: 'dE-"i-z&m, 'dA-
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe

The Deists were not atheists at all--which is the theme around this article is built. It is suspect from the third paragraph on as a result.

Deists did not deny the existence of a Creator. In fact, they believed in God as the watchmaker, creating the universe but only occasionally intervening to amend the natural laws He penned.

From http://www.rain.org/homeschool/history/religious-history/religion-us-history-deists.html, the first link appearing you look up "Deism."

The term "Deism" originally referred to a belief in one deity, as contrasted with the belief in no God (Atheism) and belief in many Gods (Polytheism). During the later 17th century, "Deism" began to refer to forms of radical Christianity - belief systems that rejected miracles, revelation, and the inerrancy of the Bible. Currently, Deism is no longer associated with Christianity or any other established religion. Then, as now, Deism is not a religious movement in the conventional sense of the world. There is no Deistic network of places of worship, a priesthood or hierarchy of authority.

Deism was greatly influential among politicians, scientists and philosophers during the later 17th century and 18 century, in England, France Germany and the United States.

Early Deism was a logical outgrowth of the great advances in astronomy, physics, and chemistry that had been made by Bacon, Copernicus, Galileo, etc.

It was a small leap from rational study of nature to the application of the same techniques in religion.

Early Deists believed that the Bible contained important truths, but they rejected the concept that it was divinely inspired or inerrant.

They were leaders in the study of the Bible as a historical (rather than an inspired, revealed) document.

Lord Herbert of Cherbury (d. 1648) was one of the earliest proponents of Deism in England. In his book "De Veritate," (1624), he described the "Five Articles" of English Deists: belief in the existence of a single supreme God
humanity's duty to revere God
linkage of worship with practical morality
God will forgive us if we repent and abandon our sins
good works will be rewarded (and punishment for evil) both in life and after death

Other English Deists were Anthony Collins (1676-1729), Matthew Tindal (1657-1733). J.J. Rousseau (1712-1778) and F.M.A. de Voltaire (1694-1778) were its leaders in France.

Many of the leaders of the French and American revolutions followed this belief system, including John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison Thomas Paine, and George Washington.

Deists played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, and the religious freedom clauses of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

But here is an opposing view that some of those named above may be named a bit too hastily (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel02.html):

DEISM
"Deism" is a loosely used term that describes the views of certain English and continental thinkers. These views attracted a following in Europe toward the latter part of the seventeenth century and gained a small but influential number of adherents in America in the late eighteenth century. Deism stressed morality and rejected the orthodox Christian view of the divinity of Christ, often viewing him as nothing more than a "sublime" teacher of morality. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams are usually considered the leading American deists. There is no doubt that they subscribed to the deist credo that all religious claims were to be subjected to the scrutiny of reason. "Call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion," Jefferson advised. Other founders of the American republic, including George Washington, are frequently identified as deists, although the evidence supporting such judgments is often thin. Deists in the United States never amounted to more than a small percentage of an evangelical population.

---

Nonetheless, the question is, why is there such a haste to deny that any of these men were Deists? Deism is essentially dead as an organized religion, not least because it was dead as an organized religion to begin with. But this outright lying about what is accepted as truth by most historians (that "notable Founders" Jefferson and Adams were believers in this sect)--why? There are plenty of fundamentally religious forebears to choose from without making them up! Is it so galling to find that there were founders who were not only NOT fundamentalist but were rational Christian thinkers!?!?

I feel like I'm reading the Christian version of an activist homo site, but while they go back in time to point out homos, this goes back in time to debunk Deists.

Why do so many people feel like they have to have dead allies to have a good cause? There weren't many who believed Jesus was the Son of God before He walked the Earth, but it didn't stop the disciples from believing in Him. And millions of anti-Semites walked the Earth before Hitler rose to power.

Just having allies doesn't make you right. However, having made them up does make you wrong.


27 posted on 11/08/2004 3:07:06 PM PST by LibertarianInExile ( "[Y]our arguments are devoid of value. I, as a woman, have so declared it." -- BushIsTheMan)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Because your link doesn't work. Why would you post something like this without verifying what Barton so approves of here? Any idiot can look on the web and find that deism has very little to do with atheism (aside from the fact that both normally believe that coming to religious beliefs is the result of a logical process). In fact, deism might well be the thinking man's counteratheism. But you'd never know it from this tripe.


28 posted on 11/08/2004 3:11:17 PM PST by LibertarianInExile ( "[Y]our arguments are devoid of value. I, as a woman, have so declared it." -- BushIsTheMan)
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To: LibertarianInExile

The battle is over. Now it's time to divvy up the spoils and argue over who's armies were decisive in the battle so their leaders can lay claim to positions of influence in the King's court. Perceived pedigree confers legitimacy.


29 posted on 11/08/2004 3:17:12 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
More of the Jefferson quote here:

I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.

So far as I can make out what he's saying is that he (Jefferson) is a true Christian and that the theologians and expounders of orthodox Christian dogma are not. It's a bit confusing what he means by the "vicious ethics and deism of the Jews," but I don't think one can use this quote to maintain that Jefferson was an orthodox Christian. And that's the problem: what some considered to be "true Christianity" might be very different from Christian orthodoxy as understood by the churches.

Here's more:

In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry & reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.

Note the last few words, which indicate that Jefferson's idea of Christ and Christianity was very different from the orthodoxy of the churches.

I don't think anyone can argue that most of the founders were deists. Then as now, self-proclaimed freethinkers were a minority. But the atmosphere of 18th century philosophy and religion were quite different from that of the 16th or 19th century. There was a strong enlightenment component to both religious faith and secular thought in the late 1700s(though defining what enlightenment means in this context could be tricky), and certain key founders had more deism or freethinking in their thought than the average American of the day. Just where Christianity began and ended was much less clear for Washington or Jefferson, Adams or Madison than it would have been for an earlier or later generation. An ethical or cultural Christianity didn't always extend to complete acceptance of orthodox dogma for some of the most prominent of our Founders.

Both sides in this controversy want to claim the Founders or Framers as being wholly in their corner. Learning to recognize that they weren't all wholly orthodox or wholly atheist can be the beginning of wisdom in this question.

30 posted on 11/08/2004 3:41:32 PM PST by x
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To: x

I think it wise to remember the position an role the Church of England played in the politics of the time, and to consider how much of Jefferson's (and other's) remarks about religion were directed to the Church.


31 posted on 11/08/2004 3:45:28 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: x

Most Protestants do consider "true Christianity" to be something different from "orthodoxy as understood by the churches."


32 posted on 11/08/2004 3:54:05 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (Born and raised in Jesusland!)
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To: iheartusa

I once saw a list of the signers of the Constitution and their religious affiliations. It might have been on FR, and if anyone knows of it, I hope they will find it because I didn't copy it when I had a chance.

Anyway, virtually all belonged to what we now would call Mainline Protestant communions. Presbyterians, a Lutheran or two, Congregationalists and Anglicans; one or two Catholic and one Jewish patriot.

No question that "the faith of our fathers" informed this nation from its birth.


33 posted on 11/08/2004 4:04:58 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: Credo_ut_intelligam
With all due respect to and appreciation for Mr. Barton I must take exception to the oft repeated myth that America's founders were Christian... The words and deeds of the leading men of the American revolution are readily accessible to any one who will take the time to search them out

Better put on your asbestos undies, Credo. That kinda sentiment around here will certainly get you fried. I've certainly taken my share of roasts when I expressed something similar and backed it up with quotes.

Seems a lot of people don't realize that the exact modern day definition of something in a modern day dictionary may not really have any relevance to the concepts and thought that were used by the Founding Fathers in their time. Certainly the term Deist has taken on some connotations over the last 225 years. I'm not sure that they even used that term much to describe themselves.

Their views of Christian and God may have less in common with the current evangelical interpretation than many might think. It is notable to understand that having just escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

Now I have to point out that not "belonging to a church" is not the same as "not believing in God (or Christ)". But the colonists, and yes the signers of the Declaration, were not enamored of the structured religions, priesthood and orthodoxy that had been forced upon them. In fact, Jefferson said in writing to Levi Lincoln in 1802, "The advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from [the clergy]". I suspect that today this still holds valid for the evangelical zealots, not just the clergy.

I believe that Jefferson, and the other founders, were more against the coercion and structured orthodoxy of what they referred to as "Christianity", rather than the underlying tenets of "correct morality" and "loving benevolence", which they openly embraced. Calling themselves "Christians" seemed to refer to those good qualities and not to the structure of the then current orthodox religion itself.

With the unfortunate lack of literacy as currently evidenced by the inability to correctly spell and use proper grammar by a large amount of the population, it is understandable that many cannot read the somewhat antiquated language used by the founders in their day and put themselves in their shoes to try to understand what they felt about such a contentious subject as religion.

There are many quotes of the founders which seem to be directly opposites in regards to the subject of "Christianity". Reading their words and trying to understand them in the context of their society, history, education and morality, without trying to impute to them something which is not there is difficult. We all bring ourselves to whatever we do. But seizing upon a word, and looking it up in a modern dictionary, and then claiming that to prove a previously decided upon belief is just an exercise is self-aggrandizement, as Mr. Barton may be an example.

Reading the words of the Founding Fathers and trying to realize what these great men were doing and thinking constantly brings tears to my eyes. I couldn't care less which god or God or object they believed in. I am just in awe of what they did and what they accomplished, whether in the name of Deism, Atheism or Christianity. It was simply mind boggling in its scope and alteration of the history of the world.

34 posted on 11/08/2004 4:48:20 PM PST by hadit2here ("The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." -- Tacitus)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Joe,

You may be absolutely correct about Jefferson. I am not a big student of Jefferson.

Please re-read my post. I was speaking of Thomas Paine only. And Paine basically ripped the bible, christianity, islam, et al.
35 posted on 11/08/2004 5:20:56 PM PST by Al Gator
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To: Tailgunner Joe; Credo_ut_intelligam
I have no doubt that he meant exactly what he said. I have grave doubts that people such as yourself truly understand what he said. Yes, I know, you think you understand the words, but you apparently don't grasp the context and content.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short

"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words."
--Thomas Jefferson

Many other of the Founders and leaders of our country have evidenced similar sentiments, yet still felt that they were "Christians" because they held to the underlying beliefs of "correct morality" and "loving benevolence", and eschewed the orthodoxy and piousness of the "clergy" and their proponents.

"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, 1789

Jefferson himself did not disparage the teachings of Jesus, just those who had perverted them.

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, 1820

As said, others of the time seemed to share Jefferson's opinion of Christianity:

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
--John Adams

"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."
--Thomas Paine

Apparently ol' Tom had some of your ilk in mind when he said:

"The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed."

Evidently Ben Franklin shared some of the distaste for the orthodoxy - not the scriptures- when he wrote to his father in 1738: "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."

And then again when he observed: "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

Mr Lincoln got into the same train of thought when he wrote: "The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Again, I think he was talking more about the orthodoxy and structure of the church at that time rather than the underlying principles of Jesus.

"My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think."
--Mary Todd Lincoln

But again, I am reminded of the old saying about teaching pigs to dance. As old Ben so aptly put it:

"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."

36 posted on 11/08/2004 5:26:51 PM PST by hadit2here ("The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: hadit2here
They considered themselves Christians. They believed they were true practitioners of Christianity as Jesus intended it.

I don't know why you have such a problem understanding that.

Protestants churches all disagree with each other. All of them think they are right, and all the other churches are wrong. All of them think they have the correct interpretation of scripture.

It may serve your militant atheist agenda to cast doubt on the piety of this nation's Founders, but the fact that they dismissed Christian religious practices which conflicted with their own dogmas only shows the strength of their religious persuasion and their desire to practice "true Christianity."

37 posted on 11/08/2004 5:46:34 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: hadit2here
Most of the founding fathers were unabashed Christians and you would not have been too happy with them since most of the original states indeed had state religions.

Jefferson and Paine were in and out but probably could be called deists.

But that leaves a helluva lot of founders who feared the Lord. When in doubt, find out if they prayed for divine intervention, if so, they weren't deists.

38 posted on 11/08/2004 5:55:34 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Al Gator
The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Where, say some, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above.

Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be placed on the Divine Law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon. - Thomas Paine, COMMON SENSE

"I would give worlds, if I had them, if The Age of Reason had never been published. O Christ, help! Stay with me! It is hell to be left alone." - Thomas Paine, on his deathbed

Thomas Paine's last words were: "I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God."

39 posted on 11/08/2004 6:04:13 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (No King but King Jesus!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I don't know why you have such a problem understanding that.

I don't have a bit of trouble understanding that. It was exactly what I was pointing out. Duh!

It may serve your militant atheist agenda...

Since you obviously know nothing about my religious beliefs...

...to cast doubt on the piety of this nation's Founders... and you seem to be unable to read the written word and correctly ascertain what was being said. I was not casting any doubt on their piety. Just the contrary, I was trying to 'splain it to you. Is English not your primary language?

Guess all I can do is fall back on the teaching pigs to dance concept... it just wastes my time and only annoys the pig.

Take an English comprehension course!

40 posted on 11/08/2004 6:06:15 PM PST by hadit2here ("The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: jwalsh07
Most of the founding fathers were unabashed Christians and you would not have been too happy with them...

I'm totally happy with them now. If I'd been there with them, I know I'd be totally happy with them then, too.

...since most of the original states indeed had state religions

Huh? Where do you come up with that piece of information?

I can trace my family lines back to the frontier preachers who traveled the eastern states and setup the first churches. They then migrated to the midwest and did the same. Then on to the west coast. In all my research and readings, I have yet to find any evidence of there being "state religions". Please, if you have such I'd be more than happy to have it. And don't give me that krap(tm) about Christianity being the "state religion".

Some of the colonies may have been started by a group from a similar religious teaching or belief, but a "state religion" would have been anathema to those who were founding this nation. They had literally left England and Europe because of the "state religions" and I doubt they were amenable to establishing more of the same. As I have written before, "Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed."

41 posted on 11/08/2004 6:20:41 PM PST by hadit2here ("The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: hadit2here
Sorry friend but you are ill informed.

Of the 13 original states 6, Connecticut, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and South Carolina, had established religions.

But don't take my word for it, let your fingers do the walking.

42 posted on 11/08/2004 6:26:11 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07

I like David Barton. He tells it like it is.


43 posted on 11/08/2004 6:29:47 PM PST by cyborg
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To: hadit2here
And while I'm bursting bubbles, try this one on for size. Jefferson wrote and Madison ushered through a state law in Virginia making the Breaking of the Sabbath a criminal offense.

God's honest truth. :-}

44 posted on 11/08/2004 6:30:05 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

bump


45 posted on 11/08/2004 6:42:50 PM PST by tophat9000
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To: All
This has been a lively discussion indeed. Allow me to say that although my research of the writings of Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Henry and others has provided copious proof that most of the founding fathers did not personally embrace the Christian faith most were friendly toward it.

In addition to the earlier quote from Jefferson I add this one from John Adams:

The clergy of this province are a virtuous, sensible, and learned set of men and they do not take their sermons from newspapers, but the Bible; unless it be a few, who preach passive obedience. These are not generally curious enough to read Hobbes. It is the duty of the clergy to accommodate their discourses to the times.

To Adams, a good preacher would be in touch with the Enlightenment and will have read Hobbes. Certainly any indifferent and unlearned minister who preached passive obedience could not have been expounding the Biblical text; such a man (in Adams'eyes) must have gathered his sermon material from the newspapers.

The evidence against Adams and Jefferson in their own words irrefutably demonstrates that they rejected orthodox Christianity. The evidence against Madison and Henry, though less conclusive than that against Adams and Jefferson, is compelling.

None of this is intended to disparage any of these men in regard to their usefulness in the founding of our nation. But again, we must deal with the facts;

their embrace of Christianity on a personal level was comparable to that of John Kerry.

46 posted on 11/08/2004 7:03:40 PM PST by Credo_ut_intelligam
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To: jwalsh07
Of the 13 original states 6, Connecticut, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and South Carolina, had established religions.

I think that you are mis-informed. You seem to not understand the concept of the Colonies vs the States. If you read back through the history, there were indeed Puritans in Mass., and others in the other states. They did indeed have established religions in some colonies throughout the 1600's and part of the 1700's. In fact, it is during that time period that my forebears raised the rabble and splintered off from the "established doctrine" and began their frontier ministries, establishing the first churches in many eastern colonies- what were to become states.

However, after the Revolution, when the states began writing and passing their state Constitutions - which by definition changed them from Colonies to States - I find no evidence of "state religions". There were some religious taxes - "general assessment schemes" - and states exclaimed the need for "piety, religion and morality" as the basis for "the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government", and other strong rhetorical support for religion, but I can see no history of any actual state established religions. Certainly after the First Amendment to the US Constitution was passed in 1789 and ratified in 1791, such establishment of religion was barred by the First Amendment.

By the time of the establishment of the Colonies as States, there had been major schisms in the various sanctioned religions, and the frontier ministers had already carried the "Great Awakening" throughout the southern Colonies.

If you have some accurate source - other than an evangelical website stating "Educated Americans know that some of the original states did, in fact, have established religions when they ratified the Constitution, I'd certainly like to see it.

47 posted on 11/08/2004 7:43:35 PM PST by hadit2here ("The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: hadit2here
I can trace my family lines back to the frontier preachers who traveled the eastern states and setup the first churches. They then migrated to the midwest and did the same. Then on to the west coast. In all my research and readings, I have yet to find any evidence of there being "state religions". Please, if you have such I'd be more than happy to have it. And don't give me that krap(tm) about Christianity being the "state religion". Some of the colonies may have been started by a group from a similar religious teaching or belief, but a "state religion" would have been anathema to those who were founding this nation.
I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provisions that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority. - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808 (emphasis added)
The First Amendment only proscribes an establishment of a national religion. The Bill of Rights did not apply to the state governments before the passage of the fourteenth amendment.
The constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual states. Each state established a constitution for itself, and, in that constitution, provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government as its judgment dictated...

These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the general government--not against those of the local governments.

In compliance with a sentiment thus generally expressed, to quiet fears thus extensively entertained, amendments were proposed by the required majority in congress, and adopted by the states. These amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the state governments. This court cannot so apply them. - Chief Justice Marshall, Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833) (emphasis added)

-----
Quite simply, the Establishment Clause is best understood as a federalism provision--it protects state establishments from federal interference but does not protect any individual right.

Moreover, incorporation of this putative individual right leads to a peculiar outcome: It would prohibit precisely what the Establishment Clause was intended to protect--state establishments of religion.

(noting that "the Fourteenth Amendment has somehow absorbed the Establishment Clause, although it is not without irony that a constitutional provision evidently designed to leave the States free to go their own way should now have become a restriction upon their autonomy") - Justice Thomas, Elk Grove v. Newdow, June 14, 2004 (emphasis added)

Perhaps you should spend more time listening and learning rather than slandering the Founders of this Christian nation and distorting history. Then you might not be so boastful about your ignorance. I don't mind educating you and setting the record straight though. To learn about the history of America's established state churches and their disestablishment, you might start here.

48 posted on 11/08/2004 7:50:07 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (No King but King Jesus!)
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To: All
I believe the stumbling block in this thread is that not all of see that there were two forms of Christianity in play at that point in history. There was the purely Biblical Christianity that stems from faith in Jesus the Christ as recorded in the Bible. And there was the corrupt Christian church so many of the early settlers were persecuted by, causing them to flee and despise it utterly.

There is no question that by-and-large the Founding Fathers were Christians in the purely Biblical sense. I gave a quote earlier in this thread from Washington indicating that in religion the Founders were very like-minded men. Now I'll give you another from Washington's speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779 (courtesy of The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV).

You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.

Not only did Washington advocate the Delaware Indians' growth in the religion of Jesus Christ, but indicated that Congress (composed of his fellow countrymen!) would support this "wise intention". George Washington was anything but a consumate liar. He was a Christian in the purely Biblical sense (a "true" Christian as some here have indicated Jefferson would say) and despised the corrupt Christian church of the day. When he looked at the great men around him, he truly believed that they too were of like mind (with only "slight shades of difference")

Does anyone here believe that organized Christian religion today is to some degree corrupt? Of those answering "yes", how many still consider themselves Christians in the Biblical sense? It's not so much of a stretch, you see.
49 posted on 11/08/2004 8:47:34 PM PST by so_real (It's all about sharing the Weather)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Joe,

Yes, you are correct, in his delirium, he said such things.
Whether it was an "enlightened" moment or simply an exclamatory, we will never know.

The fact of the matter is though, that he did not believe in christianity, nor any other organized religion for that matter.

You quoting his acknowledgment of God is slick spin. No one said he did not believe in an Almighty God.

He was a DEIST! Yes, he did believe in an Almighty God.

Deists do that you know.
50 posted on 11/09/2004 4:56:21 AM PST by Al Gator
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