'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says; Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed

Oakland Tribune ^ | 11/20/04 | Harrison Sheppard

[SierraWasp]

'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says
Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed, but proponents say give it more time

By Harrison SheppardSACRAMENTO BUREAU

Saturday, November 20, 2004 -

SACRAMENTO -- A report by a libertarian think tank seeks to debunk Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's plans for a "hydrogen highway" by claiming hydrogen-fueled vehicles will make little difference in reducing harmful emissions.

The report released this week by the Reason Foundation argues that even while hydrogen itself may be clean-burning, the processes used to manufacture and distribute hydrogen are dirty enough to nearly negate the benefits -- and the cost of conversion isn't worth the difference.

The study instead advocates more conservation, lowering freeway speed limits and making gasoline-powered cars smaller.

"Until we figure out ways to create hydrogen that are less energy-intensive or the performance of hydrogen improves, it's not a good air-quality measure," said Adrian Moore, the study's project director.

State environmental officials concede the study's argument has some merit -- if one only considers the current state of technology. But hydrogen is still an emerging science with rapid advances, and it is expected to be cheaper and more efficient in the future, said Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.

Ultimately, she said, the goal is to produce hydrogen through clean, renewable sources such as solar, wind and biomass, rather than natural gas.

"Every day these vehicles coming out are lighter and more fuel-efficient," St. Martin said. "At the end of the day, experts are saying hydrogen-powered vehicles will be at least twice as fuel-efficient as gasoline vehicles."

Earlier this year, Schwarzenegger proposed a "California Hydrogen Highway Network" that would result in a network of up to 200 hydrogen fueling stations on the state's freeways by 2010. The project is expected to cost $75 million to $200 million, with much of the costs picked up by the private sector.

The state has already opened three hydrogen fueling stations -- in Los Angeles, Davis and San Francisco -- and expects to have 18 more open soon, she said. City governments in those regions are using hydrogen cars in pilot programs.

Hydrogen car supporters say they are the clean-burning wave of the future, producing only water, not dirty carbon dioxide, in their exhaust.

The Reason study said it is not the emissions of individual hydrogen vehicles that is troubling, but the way in which hydrogen is produced and distributed. Hydrogen plants would most likely run on natural gas, which results in high emissions of carbon dioxide, the study argues.

The study also notes that converting some vehicles to hydrogen may actually make them greater polluters because hydrogen vehicles are heavier and therefore take more energy to generate the same horsepower.

According to the study, a Hummer H2 that is converted to hydrogen use will be about 1,000 pounds heavier. In order to get the same performance as a gasoline powered Hummer, a greater amount of carbon dioxide will be produced.

Schwarzenegger, who was criticized during the recall campaign for driving a Hummer, promised to convert one of his vehicles to hydrogen.

Last month, he appeared at a press conference at Los Angeles International Airport driving a hydrogen Hummer to open a fueling station there, although it turned out the vehicle was a prototype loaner from General Motors that is not available to the public.

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias. Hydrogen, he said, is only one part of a multipronged strategy to reduce emissions in California, and the hydrogen field continues to improve.

"The Reason Foundation doesn't accept we're living in a carbon-constrained world, and petroleum is rapidly reaching its peak and will soon begin a long decline," White said. "The alternatives to our addiction to petroleum are important to develop."

[SierraWasp]

Another Schwarzenegger Farce!!!

[EagleUSA]

More subterfuge. They have completely ignored that fact that hydrogen is ALSO AN ALTERNATIVE TO GASOLINE which would help provide for the added competition and needed supply to meet the demands of a healthy economy.

It is true that cars, that are "smogged" up in California are burning gasoline very cleanly now. But the enviro-whackos cannot say that, since they would be out of a job when it comes to inventing more dirty air....

[SierraWasp]

The Great "Hydrogen Highway" Hold-up!!!

You can't do this economically without nuke power and the EnvironMental Communutty has driven the costs of that out of this world, except in France!!!

Funny how the size of CA's economy is compared to France... kinda makes one wonder...

[SouthTexas]

As with many of the alternative fuels, too many "other" issues are not factored in. Things like in the electric cars, the power generation and the battery disposal issues are ignored.

[rellimpank]

--yeah--this one could make the stem cell farce look like small change--

[traviskicks]

But hydrogen is still an emerging science with rapid advances, and it is expected to be cheaper and more efficient in the future, said Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.
---

umm... Aren't gasoline engines becoming more and more fuel efficent too. Remember what pollution actually is - wasted energy.

[traviskicks]

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias.
---

Attacking character instead of their arguments AGAIN!

[glock rocks]

Oxides of nitrogen will be created by internal combustion, a major component of acid rain, hence, the envirals will always have something to whine about, no matter how clean the fuel burns, nor its availibility.

[sefarkas]

Hydrogen will do what nuclear power has already done -- displace oil as an energy source; saving it for petrochemical feedstock. Replacing gasoline will happen when the consumers are faced with high enough prices for gasoline that make other fuels viable options. Someone has to break ground to make hydrogen a viable alternative. If it is too expensive, don't buy it.

[matchwood]

I wonder what this will do to General Motors' plan to have a competitively priced fuel cell car on the highways by 2010?

[FredZarguna]

In discussions with my environmentalist friends and relatives, many of them react to the news that hydrogen isn't really a fuel--simply an energy storage medium, like a battery--with shocked disbelief. This reflects the poor quality of science education in government schools and the unblinking credulity of people determined to believe that "big oil" is the only reason we consume fossil fuels. Unless environmentalists are willing to start burning uranium, hydrogen is going to be produced by natural gas on a small scale, and later, by coal.

[karenbarinka]

Kaleefornyuns sure do have lots of money to burn.

Meanwhile, innocent unborn face murder for medical research...

[upcountryhorseman]

I am sceptical of the Sierra Club and don't trust their
opinions.

[upcountryhorseman]

I am sceptical of the Sierra Club and don't trust their
opinions.

[SierraWasp]

My reason for posting this is... A supposedly "Republican" Governor slipped into office through an unprecedented and historic Recall election, only to foist on us the very dubious crappola the extreme leftist Whackos have tried to corner everyone with for decades!!!

At the very time he's at the Republican National Convention wowing FReepers with his "what a Republican is..." speech, he's signed a bill to work toward locking up all the private land in 1/5^th of CA and blowing smoke up everyone's differential about the "Hydrogen Highway!"

Can't anyone here see how totally absurd Arnold truly is in his bad-acting roll as a "Republican?" Would any of you do business with such a huge "bait and switch" artist? Or would you call the DA and have him charged with GRAND LARCENY???

I want some credible answers from consistent conservative FReepers, right here and right now!!!

[Rightwing Conspiratr1]

Oh and I thought the hydrogen thing was to get off the oil teat. Screw the environment, if I can't drive around in a Hindenburg then I want a friggin nuclear reactor under the hood.

[FredZarguna]

...if I can't drive around in a Hindenburg then I want a friggin nuclear reactor under the hood.

In that case, check this dealer out, I think he's based in Macon, GA:
(No Money Down--Chuck Berry, as modified by Duane Allman)

As I was motivatin'
Back towards town
I saw a Cadillac sign
Sayin' "No Money Down"
So I eased on my brakes
And I pulled in the drive
Gunned my motor twice
Then I walked inside
Dealer came to me
Said "Trade in you Ford
And I'll put you in a car
That'll eat up the road
Just tell me what you want
And then sign on that line
And I'll have it brought down to you
In a hour's time"

I'm gonna get me a car
And I'll be headed on down the road
Then I won't have to worry
About that broken - down, raggedy ol' Ford

"Well Mister I want a yellow convertible
Four - door de Ville
With a Continental spare
And a wide chrome wheel
I want power steering
And power brakes
I want a powerful motor
With a jet off - take
I want air condition
I want automatic heat
And I want a full Murphy bed
In my back seat
I want short - wave radio
I want a color TV and a phone
So I can call up my baby
When I'm ridin' alone"

Yes I'm gonna get that car
And I'm gonna head on down the road
Yeah, then I won't have to worry
About that broken - down, raggedy ol' Ford

"I want four carburetors
And two straight exhausts
I want a nuclear reactor
An' I don't care it costs
I want a railroad air horn
And a military spot
And I want a five - year guarantee
On everything I got
I want ten - dollar deductible
I want a twenty dollar note
I want thirty thousand liability"
That's all she wrote

I got me a car
And I'm headed on down the road
No money down
I don't have to worry
About that broken - down, raggedy ol' Ford

[Carry_Okie]

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias.

???

HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW!!!

[calcowgirl]

Can't anyone here see how totally absurd Arnold truly is in his bad-acting roll as a "Republican?"

Yes.

Would any of you do business with such a huge "bait and switch" artist?

No.

I want some credible answers from consistent conservative FReepers, right here and right now!!!

Some credible Freepers have been posting supporting arguments for over a year now to expose the folly. But the drum beats on. I'm glad to see the Reason Foundation aid in exposing the Hydrogen boondoggle... now they need to Follow-The-Money!

[nuke_road_warrior]

The fundamental problem is that hydrogen isn't an "alternative fuel." It's an energy distribution an storage system. Hydrogen will always cost more energy to produce than you recover by "burning" it in either an internal combustion engine or in a fuel cell (The Second Law of Thermodynamics always wins). At present, and for the foreseeable future, the total cost of infrastructure and production for a "hydrogen highway" will be more than all but the most dedicated enviros will be willing or able to afford.