Posted on 11/30/2004 9:13:08 AM PST by greatful student
If you want to be literal, let's be literal. The physically dead, but spiritually alive saints. I hope this specificity will allow you to provide a good answer not. :-) ampu
Unnngh.
... so back to my questions please, if you care to participate in the discussion.
best, ampu
Your post is very interesting.
While the first part of your post, quoting Psalms 103 doesn't "directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us", it is the second part I was intrigued by. I agree, incidently that those in heaven, saints and angels praise God.
Revelation is interesting ...
Let's assume your statement is correct... "The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth."
We are still left with the argument from nothing that we should pray to saints who are now in heaven.
We are to pray to God alone.
best to you, ampu
I am aware of the Catholic Doctrine but also aware of it's contradictions. I do not feel the need to pray to a saint when a prayer to an omnipotent God is an option. If you have any questions, please look up the definition of "omnipotent".
Don't get me started on the Book of Revelations. I find Bishops of Nicene even less devine than many of the saints.
Fine. So why don't you believe the spiritually alive saints can hear us?
SD
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
No Catholic posits that an human saint has any powers "independent" of God. And certainly no one thinks that any human or any other created being is "equal" to God.
You should study what the Faith teaches about saints sometime. They are not free agents. They won't thwart God to do their own will. You're not getting your prayer answered by Jude if God does not will it to be.
One can logically dispense with the saints as "superfluous." But that's kind of the point. They are a special gift God has given us, above and beyond what is merely "necessary."
Furthermore, we are called into a relationship not only with God, but with the entire family of people He has gathered to Him. To dismiss those who died before us as unnecessary is like going to Thanksgiving dinner and only talking to your father. Cousins and uncles and aunts are so unnecessary in order to talk to your father. But you can not truly know him unless you know his family.
SD
For example, you can speak out loud right now, but I can't hear you because I"m in PA. Would you show me in scripture a place that says their powers of hearing go beyond ours?
best, ampu
wishing you the best, ampu
One can argue that there are many manifestations of the one true God, such as the Trinity, Angels, Archangels, Saints, Cherubs, Seraphim, Serabim, the Burning Bush, Ezekial's Wheel, etc. However, once you have accepted this you have embraced the precepts of Vedic Hinduism as well. For me, I will settle for a truely monotheistic view of God.
What's a novena?Back in the day, it was our name for hitting three or more bars in the same night. >:)
-Eric
If you're going to deny the Trinity, the saints and other fundamental aspects of the faith, you really shouldn't call yourself Catholic. Catholicism is not a smorgasbord.
SD
Doesn't that fly in the face of one of the premises that I think most of us can agree on, and which Jesus instructed, which is prayer for each other is good and necessary?
If you agree with this, what is the issue with asking those in heaven to pray for us? Are there prayers any less powerful than those of us here on earth?
Good grief sir, lay off the criticism and congratulate the guy for his good news.
Congratulations! St. Jude has come through for me countless times and I acknowledge that God is the one who performed the miracle in every case.
People who lash out at you because you ask for intercession of a saint probably have NEVER asked their friends or family to pray for them when they have problems.
I have many evangelical friends, ALL who have asked me to pray for them. What if I responded, only Jesus is the intercessor, go to Him. I would not have many friends after that.
Flame away.
The real disconnect between us is the question of some humans being infallable. I don't accept the infallibility of those who have claimed to speak on behalf of God. Anyone who says that "God speaks to me and I will tell you what he says" is taking the Lords name in vain. This includes Street Preachers, Televangelists, Popes, the Bishops of Nicene, Saints and even some authors of the Gospels who were not eye witnesses.
This does raise the question of why you believe that they can hear you since they are not here with us and are physically dead?
We can ask lots of things, but it is a variation of the old "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there..." God is omnipresent and hears every word spoken and those in your heart and mind even before they are spoken. thankfully!
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