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To: Natural Law
No one in this thread ever claimed that the phrase "Communion of Saints" was the original copyright of the Roman Church. Nor was it ever stated that the Roman Church was the only Church. The Creed references a Catholic church, but that only means a universal Christian church. What I stated was that the Council of Trent added the phrase into the revision of the original Roman Creed and that they did this in response to Anglican and Lutheran reformations.

I would certainly ascribe original authorship of the line 'Communion of the Saints' to the Roman Catholic Church, though would date it many centuries before Trent (at which point there was no separation, the Orthodox still being united, and the protestant schism not haveing happenned).

You have again made the assertion that the Council of Trent added the phrase to the Creed. To satisfy my own doubts (which were few in this matter) I have scanned through the Decrees of the Council, I have searched the text and looked at every incidence of the word 'saint'; this addition did not take place at Trent. The full text of the Apostles Creed greatly preceeds the Council of Trent. If you disagree, please provide actual evidence (if such exist) rather than merely restating your error.

The Lutherans and Anglicans did not change the Creed. The phrase was already in the Creed by the time that the separated from Rome. They merely translated 'Credo in Deum' into their vernacular languages.
107 posted on 12/03/2004 3:02:08 AM PST by tjwmason ("For he himself has said it, And it's greatly to his credit, That he is an Englishman!")
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To: tjwmason

THE OLD ROMAN CREED
AS QUOTED BY TERTULLIAN (c. 200)

De Virg. Vel.
Believing in one God Almighty, maker of the world,
and His Son, Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary,
crucified under Pontius Pilate, on the third day brought to life from the dead, received in heaven, sitting now at the right hand of the Father, will come to judge the living and the dead who has sent from the Father the Holy Ghost. to govern believers through resurrection of the flesh.

Latin Text (ca. A.D. 700)
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem; Creatorem coeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum, Filium ejus unicum, Dominum nostrum; qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine; passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus; descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis; ascendit ad coelos; sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis; inde venturus (est) judicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. Amen.

The reference to Saints is in neither so it had to have been added later.

By the way, the definition of a Saint is a human soul who now resides in Heaven. All believers are destined to become Saints, eventually, but I still don't believe that they have better access to God's ear or hold more sway than I do.


111 posted on 12/03/2004 7:59:35 AM PST by Natural Law
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