Posted on 12/03/2004 1:06:08 AM PST by nickcarraway
SEVIERVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Frustration with public education seems to be growing among the nation's Southern Baptists, with supporters of Christian schools and home schooling arguing that if God is absent from the classroom then their children should leave, too.
``What has happened is not so much that the Christians are leaving the public schools as that the public schools have left the Christians,'' advocate Ed Gamble said.
Gamble is executive director of the Southern Baptist Association of Christian Schools, an Orlando, Fla.-based group that supports the more than 600 Southern Baptist schools created in the past eight years.
``As the public schools have become increasingly secular and increasingly intolerant of things Christian, people who are openly Christian have said, 'I guess they are not part of our team anymore,''' Gamble said.
The number of conservative Christian schools grew by nearly 11 percent between 1999-2000 and 2001-2002, to 5,527, according to the U.S. Department of Education's latest statistics.
At that rate, Christian schools are growing faster than private schools as a whole, and have increased their share to nearly 1 in 5 private schools in the country.
Earlier this year, a resolution proposed at the national meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention -- which guides the nation's largest Protestant denomination -- urged parents to withdraw their children from ``officially Godless'' ``government schools'' in favor of religious education.
While the measure was rejected, interest in faith-based schools has continued to spread among Baptists at the state level, particularly in Tennessee, Missouri, Florida, South Carolina, Illinois, Texas, Virginia, North Carolina, California and New England, according to Exodus Mandate, a Columbia, S.C., group that promotes private, Christian and home-school education.
A recent resolution promoting Christian schooling easily passed the Missouri Baptist Convention but was quashed in committee at the Tennessee Baptist Convention meeting in Sevierville last month.
The Missouri resolution talked about the ``inherent dangers of secular educational philosophies that now permeates America's public education system'' and affirmed ``the importance of systematically training ourselves and our children in the ways of authentic, biblical Christianity.''
``What we are saying is that God has given us some very specific commands that we are to train our children in the ways of the Lord, not in the ways of the world,'' said the Rev. Roger Moran, of Troy, Mo., the resolution's author and a member of the Southern Baptist Convention's executive committee.
That means teaching creationism over evolution, that life begins at conception, and that homosexuality is immoral, as is sex outside of marriage. But it is more.
``It hits everything, when you realize the reality of life is (that) life was created by God and the entire universe is his creation. Therefore, everything has meaning and reflection on his nature, whether it is math or history or science. Two plus two equals four because God created them that way,'' said Glen Schultz, who heads the Baptists' LifeWay curriculum program for church-based schools and homeschoolers.
The Tennessee resolution came one step short of asking Baptist parents to pull their children from public schools.
``I wanted to be positive in promoting Christian education. I didn't want the resolution to be portrayed as attacking public education,'' said the Rev. Larry Reagan, of Dresden, who wrote the measure.
But the Rev. Mike Boyd of Knoxville, outgoing president of the 1 million-member Tennessee Baptist Convention, worried about the divisiveness of the issue.
``It was not wise, is all I am saying,'' added the Rev. Grover Westover, of Whiteville, chairman of the resolutions committee.
Reagan's resolution would have promoted more ``Kingdom education'' schools following LifeWay's lead. Schultz said the program has reached some 150 churches since 1996.
``We encourage our members to pray for this ministry and we encourage the promotion of an adequate system of Christian schools,'' Reagan said.
Boyd agreed there were ``some serious issues in the public schools'' to resolve but said the focus should be on supporting the teachers working in them, including many Baptists, and parents.
``Historically, Baptists have been pretty staunch supporters of the public school system, and they still are,'' said Gamble, who was not surprised to see the convention resolutions fail.
``But this is a bottom-up movement, as it is a bottom-up denomination. This is not a movement that is being led so much by pastors as it is being led by moms and dads who are frustrated.''
``And some day, I don't know how long it will be, most of the kids will be educated in Southern Baptist schools or in their homes.''
I don't live in West Tenn. or California and I moved out of Delaware because of the public schools.
There may be a growing population in this state not being educated in public schools, but it is not happening in this school district. And I happen to live in one of the 5 poorest counties in the state.
In all of my posts I have not faulted anyone for their choices, I have just asked them not to paint with a broad brush those who make different choices. I ask the same of you.
I am content to homeschool, as a matter of fact, I am grateful for the opportunity. It works for my family.
We did try the private route before it came to me to homeschool. I am not, however, catholic, I am Baptist, so enrolling in a cotholic school is out of the question. KINDA LIKE THOSE A-RABS, JEWS AND CHIRCH OF CHRIST NUTS?... RIGHT. As far as other private schools of my faith, YOUR FAITH IS COOL AND I, FOR ONE WILL LAY MY LIFE DOWN THIS INSTANT FOR YOU TO PRACTICE IT AS YOU CHOOSE. TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST... MY DAD WAS A "FOOT WASHING" BAPTIST. MY MOTHER WAS CATHOLIC AND I WAS RAISED IN A PRESBYTERIAN (US) CHRUCH. MY WIFE IS DEVOUT. OLDEST KID IS METHODIST AND HAPPY AS A LARK. # 2 KID IS BAPTIST (SOUTHERN) AND THINKS EVERYONE SHOULD BE BAPTIST BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT CHURCHES... HE CLAIMS THERE IS ONE FOR ANYONE. THIRD KID IS CATHOLIC FOR NOW... WHAT SHE BECOMES AND LOVES IS HER DECISION TO MAKE. HOWEVER... AND HEAR ME WELL... I WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE WITH EACH OF THEM IN HEAVEN. Y'ALL BAPTISTS DO NOT HAVE A LOCK ON THE BIG PEARLIES... ST. PETER STILL IS IN CHARGE OF THAT STUFF THE LAST TIME I HEARD. NOT JOHN THE, NOT THE SOUTHERN, NOT THE FOOTWASHING, NOT THE HARD SHELL AND CERTAINLY NOT THE RUN AND GUN TONIGHT AND OH HELL NOT ME TOMORROW BAPTISTS. I refuse to take the subsidized money that can go to a family who really needs it, COOL... we live on a tight budget IF THE BUDGET IS THAT TIGHT... TAKE THE DAMN MONEY. WE HAD HURRICANE CHARLIE GO DIRECTLY OVER OUR HOME. THE LAST TIME ANYONE SAW MY OFFICES THEY SAID THEY WERE SOMEWHERE AROUNG JACKSONVILLE (JUST KIDDING ABOUT THAT LAST PART BUT IT SURE AS HECK AIN'T HERE NO MORE), but I know there are people who are in much more need than we are. HEY... YOU AIN'T SUPPOSED TO BE NAILING YOURSELF ON THE CROSS... THAT'S WHAT CATHOLICS DO... AND DO A HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN YOU... THEY HAD MORE PRACTICE. YOUR SHOULD BE GIVING YOUR OFFSPRING... YOU CHILDREN... GET THE PICTURE... THOSE PRECIOUS CHILDREN THAT WERE SO PRECIOUS AND ARE SO PRECIOUS TO CHRIST A SHOT. THAT'S OFFENSIVE?? TAKE THEM TO AFRICA AND DROP THEM ON THE SARENGETTI (SP). POTECT YOUR OWN. PROTECT YOUR GENE POOL. DARWIN WAS NOT ALL WRONG. DON'T FAINT ON ME NOW. SOMEONE OR SOMETHING BROUGHT ALL THIS STUFF TOGETHER... IF IT WAS THROUGH ENVOLVING... IT'S ONLY MORE BEAUTIFUL... SIMPLY A MORE BEAUTIFUL MASTERPIECE.
We educate on aprroximately $800.00 per year per child, not counting extracurricular activities. Financially, that is do-able. And, my daughters have a full-time Mommy to boot FULL TIME MOMMIES ARE GOD'S GUIFT BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN WHERE THEY WERE TO BE 24/7. SOCIAL GRACES... SURE IT NOT HARD TO KNOW WHERE THE FORK GOES AND HOW TO DO THE SOUP FROM THE SPOON BUT THINK GIRL... HOW TO SURVIVE PRESSURE. THE ESCAPE ROUTS THAT ARE OH SO CRITICAL. YES THE FLIRTING... THE UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE BODY UGES AND FEELING THEY MUST HAVE CONTROL OF OR IF YOU WOULD GUARD. THE ABILITY TO FACE, EVALUATE AND CONTROL ANY CIRCUMSTANCE THAT COMES DOWN THE PIKE. That may be something private school children may miss out on, since there is a tuition to pay.
But let me say this again, so not to rile anyone else up, I think public schools are in a deplorable condition. TRY MISSISSSIPPI MY DEAR. NOT A DOG THAT ANYONE CARED ABOUT SHOULD BE PLACE THERE. But we cannot condemn everyone who chooses this type of education for their children. AND WHY NOT I WOULD ASK? GOD IS A WONDERFUL FELLOW... HOWEVER HE ONLY HELPS THOSE WHO HELPS THEIRSELVES.
OK... I'LL GET OFF YOUR CASE. BUT PLEASE DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO GET THOSE GIRLS THE ABSOLUTELY BEST TOOLS POSSIBLE TO WORK LIFE WITH. AND YES... THERE WILL BE OTHERS (THAN BAPTISTS) IN HEAVEN INCLUDING JUST PERHAPS A COUPLE OF AUSTRALIAN BACK LANDERS. GOD IS NOT A VENGEFUL GOD.
REGERDS!
"But let me say this again, so not to rile anyone else up, I think public schools are in a deplorable condition."
By this statement, I mean that funding is out of whack, and in a lot of areas special interest groups have more control than is allowed.
It would be a great thing for all public schools to have a set standard, certain allowable disciplines, and the ability to teach those who want to learn, rather than baby-sit.
The problem is there are too many variances, pick and choose, and some families are fortunate enough to find good schools with caring teachers in the PS system, some of us are not.
I am not sure what you are yelling about. But if you feel better by yelling, then I am glad to have helped you get that rant out of your system.
If you are thinking that I have something against Catholics, you are wrong. There are just certain parts of your faith that I cannot adhere to. I don't think one is any better than the other, and I am sorry if you thought I implied that.
There was absolutely no need to shout (use all caps) - I for one stopped reading as soon as I saw them.
Again, my FRiend, I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm very fortunate in the district I am in - but it took a lot of hard work and financial sacrifice to find it. And it was all worth it. As you say not everyone can do it.
We were fortunate, we had a set geographical area to look if we were going to continue with me being SAHM......I found a very, very good school district within that area. And so we moved to another state.
Some people are unable to homeschool, for various reasons, some people are unable to move, for various reasons. We make our decisions as parents based upon our abilities to do what we feel is best for our children.
You and I are educating our children differently, but our reasons are pretty much the same: the best interest of the child(ren).
You know, I have missed WFTD, the Family Table, and another weekly for the past few days/weeks. My night-owl genes have taken over as of late. It's strange how missing a few of the "touch base" threads can really make me feel out of sorts. I need to get my clock turned back around.
However, the upside to being a night-owl: I have been able to do my part for the economy (Christmas shopping) in the late hours with relatively no wait at the check-outs, Wal-Mart has no crying children at these hours, and the traffic is great!
I hope everyone on this thread can understand we should not be holier than thou when it comes to homeschooling vs other choices (private or public). You are a prime example of what is the bottom line to anyone's educational dilemna. Good parenting.
My night owl genes have also taken over on me - so I've missed a lot as well........and totally sympathize with you. Hubby looks at me pretty strangely when I'm still reading a book at 5am....
I know what you mean about the late nite shopping, I don't do it because I don't care to drive at night. But I do remember the times when I did - felt like I had the whole store to myself and no lines. Shopper's Heaven.
I'm in agreement with you - good parenting is what makes the difference and good parenting is what causes us to make different choices. We are all different parents with different children - there is no 'one-size-fits-all.'
See post #9.
The example cited there is a story I have heard ad nauseam; from friends, relatives, and even some publik skrewl teachers. I am a product of the government education system. I graduated just as the NEA really started to push their liberal agenda in the curriculum (the early 1980's). I believe I received a quality education, but I have seen what has become of the pseudo-educational system in this Nation.
I will say this: I live in a semi-rural county, and I truly believe that the local elementary school would be at least adequate for our needs; but the middle and high schools are an entirely different story. You are correct: If more parents would participate in their child(ren)'s education, the skrewls wouldn't get away with the things that they do. Most parents just don't have that option. Some schools are downright hostile to parental involvement, others will LIE to your face about what goes on in the classroom. Many parents do all they can just geeting the kids on the bus in the morning.
Parent/teacher conferences just don't cut it; looking at your child's textbooks is not enough. Quizing your child daily about what he/she learned is school does not render even semi-accurate answers. I don't want my kids indoctrinated with liberal pap, homosexual propoganda, and distorted history. I don't want to have to deal with the worry that my child is being "mentally evaluated" by persons with a disguised agenda. If I have to spend 3 hours a day assisting with homework, another hour a day perusing their texts and asking "What did Teacher say today?", and several hours a week volunteering at my child's school, then I would be better off homeschooling from the start.
I am positive that I can educate my child better than a system that teaches down to the least common denominator, and spends more time on "social issues education" (homosexual tolerance, multiculturalism, radical environmentalism, etc.) than they do on reading, math, science, and history.
I want my child(ren) to have the best possible education: publik skrewls don't even come close. Like I said, if I have to expend that much effort monitoring the school, I'd rather expend the effort to give my child a better, individualized, education at home.
I saw post #9 and that poster and I happen to be friends and have had different experiences. We respect that of each other.
I would venture to say that my having no experience with NEA curricula has put a bit of bias in my thought processes - however I did grow up and attend school in New York City.
I do live in a rural county, within the top 5 poorest of the Commonwealth of Virginia and every school in this county district surpasses anything I could find in the State Capitol of Delaware.
You are correct about your assessment that many school districts do not want parental involvement, it is a major reason we live in the part of VA we do and no longer in DE - the district EXPECTS parental participation.
Please do not tell me about that which you do not know - parent/teacher conferences work if parents wish them to, looking at textbooks and using them with you child works.
My 6 year old came home one day last week and was talking to me all about what they learned about rain forests that day. I corrected her on a point that I knew was wrong and she insisted that I was wrong. I told her that she was to ask the teacher to re-explain the next day. She did. I know this because the teacher called me that night and thanked me. My daughter had misunderstood something in class and I pay enough attention to know it - and the teachers pay enough attention to know the parents are.
I don't worry about a system teaching down to the lowest common denominator, because they keep bumping my child UP.
You don't like the public school system where you are, fine. I am happy with it where I am. When or if I have a problem I will work to change it.
Do NOT judge me, and I will not judge you.
I would never attempt to judge you, FRiend, and I really hope you have not taken my posts as such.
You really seem to be a caring, concerned parent, who has done what is best for yourself and your family. I am sincerely glad that you have found an adequate school system and have the ability to monitor your child(ren)'s involvement therein.
I was educated in Louisiana; primarily, I left there because I could not see myself raising children with the already-declining system there. I have lived in Mississipppi, Tennessee, Florida, and for the last 9 years in Georgia. With the exception of the elementary school down the street, I have yet to see the public school I would be willing to send my child to - each with their own sad litany of reasons.
I'm sorry if you take offense to my position that the occasional parent/teacher conference is sufficient to know what is going on with your child and/or his/her classroom. I don't think it is. Parent/teacher conferences DO work IF both parent AND teacher want them to, and the school system encourages parental involvement. Many do not. Alot of what goes on in the classrooms these days is NOT in the textbooks. The "average" kid answers the question "What did you learn in school today?" with either "Nuthin' much" or "We earned about rain forests." - as you did. What is often NOT discussed (and many times told to the children by the teacher NOT to discuss) is the condom-over-the-banana session, the Muslim-role-playing, the tolerate-the-just-like-you-homosexual-next door, that our Founding Fathers were racist/bigoted and killed all the Indians, etc. ad nauseam. The "Nuthin' much" answer is unacceptable - I want my kids to learn in school; and any time a student is told "Don't tell Mommy or Daddy", my blood begins to boil.
Again, I am thrilled that you have been able to find a way to make public education work for you. But, by your own admission, you had to uproot yourself and move to find it. That option that IS available to me, but I am unwilling to exercise it.
You are happy with your child's school and stay firmly engaged to see that it stays that way - and I applaud you for it. Sadly, however, your situation is not the norm. I am unwilling to take the valuable time and resources, or the certain and/or potential risks to my child, to attempt to deal with a broken system.
We will just have to agree to disagree..........as I will not rise to the bait of your damning with your faint praise.
Good night.
WHY THE ALL-CAPS SHOUTING?
"GOD IS A WONDERFUL FELLOW... HOWEVER HE ONLY HELPS THOSE WHO HELPS THEIRSELVES."
***This is not a statement found in the Bible, nor is it biblical in concept. Regarding the rest of your post, it's difficult to tell if you're just being facetious, and indeed I had trouble trying to figure out what you were saying. One doesn't need escape routes when home schooled. But one might need to be mindful of safety when attending a public school because of the bullying, racial violence, harrassment, and in some cases (like Columbine), downright murder. Body urges happen regardless of whether one is home schooled or public schooled. Why even bother getting into the difference of catholic vs. baptist? It's irrelevant.
We would hope to homeschool our kids when they get older, but we're not sure we can afford it. I did find one way for my kids not to waste 4 years of their lives, however. I will be encouraging them to take the CHSPE and skip high school, going directly to college. The moment they pass just one college course, they are ahead. A high school diploma is completely worthless. I have not seen one mentioned on a resume for at least 20 years.
"The moment they pass just one college course, they are ahead. A high school diploma is completely worthless. I have not seen one mentioned on a resume for at least 20 years."
Mr. OMalley wins the prize!
I have to say that this is the best statement I have read over the entire course of this discussion. It has become so true in life now that HS diplomas mean nothing.
I feel the ultimate goal is college preparation. Primary and secondary education should be geared toward the basic understanding of advancing on to college or other training. Graduating from high school should no longer be considered a rite to adulthood, but an advancement to professional training.
The day of the labor/manufacturing jobs are going to dwindle as the years go by, and some type of advanced training will be necessary for the next generation to live productive lives.
For my family, my children have the solid understanding that they can do whatever they chose to do in life, provided they go to school to do it. My husband returned to college a few years ago, and so my daughters witness the need for lifelong education/updating.
I appreciate that you brought up this point, because raising productive, happy children is the ultimate goal.
BTW~ I am not one to say you should do this or that regarding homeschool, but if you want to research costs, laws, statistics, etc. FReepmail me. I live in KY, but I'm glad to help find good info for your state.
chose=choose
But... how can you be SURE?
You seem to NOT claim this ability just a few words before...
Meaning that I don't claim to have all the answers, I don't.
Ever hear of, "Muddying the waters?"
How can I be sure that a being greater than the visible universe, who existed before time isn't accurately represented by an ando-god who just happens to have human failings? Does that really deserve an answer?
"Mr. OMalley wins the prize!
I have to say that this is the best statement I have read over the entire course of this discussion. It has become so true in life now that HS diplomas mean nothing. "
Thanks for the kudos.
Here's a bit more follow up, a recycled post from a different article:
Allowing gifted students to skip high school in Calfornia
Posted by Kevin OMalley to Lizavetta
On News/Activism 10/24/2003 3:04:53 PM PDT · 24 of 24
I took the CHSPE when I was 16, and moved on with my life. I refer to people who remain in high school as 5 percenters, which is to say that staying in high school only makes sense for those 5% of students who either can't pass the CHSPE (California's version of the high school proficiency exam), are trying for an athletic scholarship, are the most popular guys with the prettiest cheerleaders on their arm, or just want to goof off. The rest of the people in high school should just take the test and go to community college, start getting college credits out of the way.
It's particularly bizarre that the kids today are going to be REQUIRED to take a test when they graduate; that just means that you're wasting your time from the moment you CAN pass that test. A high school diploma means NOTHING in today's economy -- a 4 year college degree is a true necessity and the sooner you get it, the better off you are.
I have often heard that the reason to stay in high school is "so you can go to the senior prom". This is just an incredible joke -- what a waste of time. I can't believe kids waste 4 years of their lives for a chance at one night of fun, or because they're "building up cherished memories". That's a crock for many, if not most high school kids today, and they need to get the heck out of this socially repressive environment... leave it to the 5 percenters to harrass each other. For those parents who are trying to convince your kids that they're having fun when the kids know they aren't, you'll end up getting the worst end of the teens' treatment when the chickens come home to roost with their surly remarks, attitude problems, and drug use.
An 18 year old with an AA degree has a MUCH better chance of getting into the college of his or her choice than an 18 year old clueless high school grad with a 3.0 grade average. This will have the effect of increasing competition in the upper tier, which will trickle down to the lower/middle capability students. Hopefully we'll see kids in community college saying things such as, "I got out in 1 year" or "I skipped high school entirely". A bright kid with an Bachelor's degree at 19 or 20 years old will finally have an education on par with what goes on in Japan & other industrialized nations.
AB2607 is the best policy proposal for secondary school in California since the introduction of the CHSPE.
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