Posted on 12/09/2004 8:10:14 AM PST by CHARLITE
No other person has had such an effect on human lives as Jesus. He came back to life again, and millions say they know Him today as a friend and helper in their lives. You owe it to yourself to find out more about Him. Is He who He claimed to be? Can He help us in our lives today? You have nothing to lose! Christmas is the time to stop and think about these important questions.
(Excerpt) Read more at soon.org.uk ...
Sometimes I wonder why Jesus Christ is attacked with such viciousness. I don't know the answer. Maybe it is because people know deep inside there maybe something right about it but would rather attack it than think about it or change. Maybe it is because becoming a Christian is so against everything we now believe in our culture (being cool, materialism, it is all about me, PC politics, etc.). Maybe it is because some live their entire lives in a set of beliefs and near the end of it look back and see it all mattered for nothing and are pissed.
Sometimes the concept of hell gets people worked up. The argument on "How can a good God cast people into hell when they have lived a pretty good life" is false logic. Hell is a place where God is absent. This is exactly what the people who rejected God all their lives wanted. The "pit" of hell maybe a very comfortable place where everyone who rejected God their entire lives must now reside knowing they had lived their lives in a lie. That they had wasted it all. That actually may be worse than a guy with pitchfork.
God has given us all the "free will" to chose. God has sent his only son to die for us, to suffer for our sins and to show us the way. God could have easily made a bunch of robots that would do everything he said but instead loved us enough for us to make our own decisions.
After all, Jesus Christ's resurrection is either the supreme fact in the history of mankind or a gigantic hoax. If Christ's resurrection is true -- they ignore its implications at our own peril. If not -- Christianity is the biggest fraud in the history of the world and should be easy enough to disprove. If they believe it is a hoax, then they must take an honest look at the evidence. And the evidence is overwhelming...
I'm just waiting for the Mithras KOOKS to chime in...
No doubt you are.
> If Christ's resurrection is true -- they ignore its implications at our own peril. If not -- Christianity is the biggest fraud in the history of the world and should be easy enough to disprove.
Hardly. How do you prove that an event that left no physical evidence *didn't* happen? If I say that yesterday I briefly began to flash phospherescent green while taking my shower... how do you prove it didn't happen?
The life of Jesus is recorded by eye witnesses, Christian, Roman and Jewish. The Bible is the most studied book in the history of the world. Every detail has been researched (from an archaeological standpoint). Details that did not connect (like a city that no one has heard of) always have been proved to be correct with modern discoveries
And, after 2000 years, it still make sense.
Think about it. If you took the 12 smartest people today and gave them email, telephones, computers, faxes, etc. - They couldn't come up with a story 1/1000 as fantastic as the life of Jesus without being disproved very quickly.
Now imagine 12 lower class workers writing letters to each other (ie - the basis of the New Testament). Imagine nearly all of them dying grisly deaths for their beliefs. Men do not die like that for what they know is a lie.
I suggest you buy them book "The Case For Faith" and "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (about 6 bucks in paperback). They are written from a skeptic scientific and/or investigative point of view. I suggest you buy them so that you can make notes, write in them, etc.
> The life of Jesus is recorded by eye witnesses
Go back to my previous post, where ina hypothetical I said that I flashed green. *I* would thus be an eyewitness.
> Every detail has been researched (from an archaeological standpoint). Details that did not connect (like a city that no one has heard of) always have been proved to be correct with modern discoveries
Hardly surprising. The book was (largely) written in Israel... and set in Israel. It'd be no nuttier'n any work written and set today, featurting recognizable places.
> If you took the 12 smartest people today and gave them email, telephones, computers, faxes, etc. - They couldn't come up with a story 1/1000 as fantastic as the life of Jesus without being disproved very quickly.
That's because today we are not only reasonably skeptical of fantastic stories, we also have easy means of information discovery and dissemination.
> Imagine nearly all of them dying grisly deaths for their beliefs.
Who told you that Matt, Mark, Luke and John, all supposedly eye witnesses, actually died like that?
> Men do not die like that for what they know is a lie.
Jim Jones. Heaven's Gate. Branch Davidians. Early Mormons. The ability of people to die horrible deaths for what everyone else sees as self-deception is boundless.
The evidence for the resurrections of Jesus the Christ was reported
by the writers of documents which are commonly referred to as
the gospels, and in some of the early letters written by
believers in Christ. It is true that one can't verify that
something didn't happen in the past cause one wasn't there.
If one applies that same logic, one could discount all of the
history which is recorded in which one was not privy to.
But one may use inferences that an event did happen by the
effect on those or changes which occured to those who were
there at that time, as an indirect method of "proof"
However, most people believe in what they have experienced
by sight or tactile experience. The others who don't know
the event from sight or tactile experience believe by
inference. Some sort of proof is usually needed to get
"non-experiencers" to start believing. However, singular
events by definition cannot be repeated at will. So your putative
claim that you phosphoressed (sorry about the spelling?) green
would be backed up if you could repeat that event. If you couldn't
do it again as it was (let's suppose) a one time event,
one would need eyewitnesses who make a record of some sort
(written, video, audio, chemical or ramification)..and that's
about the best you can do for the "non-viewers".
You could try and force the non-viewers to believe it, but that
would not last very long, as your tactics would lend to make
people very suspicious of the veracity of your reports.
Consider:
1) Christ was reported to be resurrected in the early documents.
He is reported to have been seen by his close followers, both
believing, barely believing, and doubting. He is reported to
have being seen by over 500 witnesses.
2) Believers in #1 persecuted for stating the fact and its'
attendant ramifications
3) Belief in resurrection of Christ spreads.
4) Much of temporal society at that time starts to believe
in the resurrection of Christ and changes their ways of living and
of their cosmological viewpoint.
Given the gap in time between "you" and these events, it would be
very difficult indeed to verify the occurence or "non-occurence"
of these events. At this time, one needs to use some
type of inferential evidence....and one will make a decision
one way or another and watch for the ramifications to see
if the decision is borne out through the time of their
"experiences" in their relatively short lifetime.
By the way, if you want to phosphoress green, just get the
genes for phosphorescence joined to your genes. I think this
has been done already for certains plants. That is, genes from
the phosphorescent "firefly" which allow for production
of a phosphorescent system were joined to the genome
of the plants,and the plants phosphoressed...Adding the green
might be a bit difficult at this time however..and the
side effects and ramifications might be a bit troublesome...
ATHEISM- A DENIAL THAT THERE IS A GOD WITHOUT ANY PROOF. AND WHEN IT IS PRESENTED HE DOES NOT FAIRLY LOOK AT IT.
YOU SEEM TO HAVE YOUR CAPS LOCK ON.
Might want to get it checked.
THANKS
> If you couldn't do it again as it was (let's suppose) a one time event, one would need eyewitnesses who make a record of some sort (written, video, audio, chemical or ramification)..and that's about the best you can do for the "non-viewers".
Ok, so you state the reasonable position that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. And let's face it, glowing green is less extraordinary than truly coming back from the dead. And as I could write up any manner of written claim... written claims are dubious. Right now, video evidence is pretty convincing. But in a decade or two or less, it won't be. Any knucklehead will be able to produce entirely convincing lies via video. The same appies *now* (and has for... well... forever) regarding eyewitness recollections. Doubt and skepticism are always appropriate, with the level of appropriate skepticism being based on the fantasticalness of the claim.
> He is reported to have being seen by over 500 witnesses.
A problem with that is... we don't have 500 witness reports. Just as it was reported during (or shortly after) WWI that thousands of soldiers on both sides saw apparitions like ghost batallions, or Jesus/God/Mary/Whomever standing 500 feet tall in the sky... it usually boils down to just one guy saying it. But frequent retellings puts those tall tales into the public conscience, and it grows in the retelling.
Heck, look at the witness to the assassination of JFK: several people were interviewed for a documentary a few years back, claiming that they saw someone on the grassy knoll, or someone in the window, or whatever... but the documentarians found archival interview footage of the *same* people, within a day or two of the event, saying something akin to, "Well, I was looking at the Pres, and didn't see the shooter..."
Witness reports over time can become glitteringly unreliable, with trivial observations or involvement becoming quite profound... *without* the witness knowingly lying about it. And when you have witnesses re-inforcing each other... heck, just catch the "Alien Abduction" episode of Penn & Teller's "Bullsh!t" to see what happens when people who did not see something get in groups. Soon enough, they *all* believe that they saw something.
Humans is weird.
The life and resurrection of Christ was witnessed by thousands of people. Jewish, Roman and Christian historians of the time period recorded his life. That is a lot different.
Hardly surprising. The book was (largely) written in Israel... and set in Israel. It'd be no nuttier'n any work written and set today, featurting recognizable places.
Hardly surprising that a book that you claim is a fable has withstood 2000 years of scruteny??? Hell, a modern president and an intern can't even get a story straight on a BJ for more than a few months...
That's because today we are not only reasonably skeptical of fantastic stories, we also have easy means of information discovery and dissemination.
And you think it was any better back then? Remember, Jesus was sentenced to death because he threatened the power structure. Those in power wanted him and his MESSAGE destroyed. If the resurrection was a phony, those in power (both Roman and Jewish) would have been the first in line to discredit it.
Who told you that Matt, Mark, Luke and John, all supposedly eye witnesses, actually died like that?
Most apostles were put to death because they refused to deny Jesus.
Peter married Perpetua and they had two children, a boy and girl. After Jesus' death and resurrection, Peter was perhaps the most aggressive disciple and most visible face of the early Christian church. King Herod tossed him in prison. Christian lore states an angel freed him. He preached throughout Asia Minor, where Mark joined him and gathered material for his gospel. He became the first bishop of the Church of Rome, where he was crucified by the Roman Emperor Nero in 64 A.D.
Andrew, a fisherman and the first apostle, preached throughout Scythia, today in the area of Ukraine. He was crucified on an x-shaped cross on orders of the Roman governor Aegeas. He was tied to the cross rather than nailed to prolong suffering.
James the Elder was a fiery speaker and personality who probably traveled throughout Spain after the resurrection. He is considered the patron saint of Spain. He was beheaded with a sword about 44 A.D. by Herod Agrippa.
Matthew spent 15 years evangelizing Egypt and Ethiopia, but there are conflicting stories regarding the place and manner of his death, and if he was martyred at all. Some accounts have King Hircanus ordering his death by sword; others that Matthew was stoned, burned or beheaded.
Philip was a coach maker by trade who became a disciple after Jesus told him, "Follow me." He preached for 20 years in Asia, joined by his three daughters. He was stoned and crucified head downward on a cross.
Bartholomew preached throughout Armenia. Details of his death in Albanopolis conflict. He was either skinned alive and then crucified with head downward, or beheaded by Astyages for having converted his brother, Polymius, the King of Armenia.
Thaddeus preached throughout Judea and Samaria, but was clubbed and his head severed with an ax by nonbelievers.
Simon was crucified after preaching the gospel in Samaria.
James the Lesser had sworn off food and drink until he saw the resurrected Jesus. He was murdered about 62 A.D. in Jerusalem, tossed from the top of a temple, stoned and clubbed. Some accounts have him praying for his attackers as he died.
Thomas, the doubter, took his ministry to India, where he converted the wife and son of King Misdai. For this he was sentenced to death, led from the city to a hill and executed by four soldiers with swords.
Matthias, who replaced Judas Iscariot, was a wealthy tax collector who gave away his money and embarked on a ministry to spread the message of Jesus, perhaps in Ethiopia. Some accounts place his death in Ethiopia, others have him being stoned to death and beheaded in Jerusalem.
John, the apostle "best loved" by Jesus, was among the first four apostles and shared the nickname "Son of Thunder" with his brother, James the Elder.
Jesus gave the brothers the name because of their fiery preaching. John was the only apostle not to abandon Jesus at his trial and crucifixion. He traveled extensively and died at an old age, the only apostle believed to have died of natural causes.
Jim Jones. Heaven's Gate. Branch Davidians. Early Mormons. The ability of people to die horrible deaths for what everyone else sees as self-deception is boundless.
A good example is the Nazis. The Nazi had fanatical soldiers who would fight to the death for Hitler. However, Hitler's inner circle, the ones who actually knew him and knew what a lie the Third Reich was, nearly to a man all tried to escape to live. None wanted to die for what they knew was a lie because they knew the truth. They were direct eye witnesses.
> Jewish, Roman and Christian historians of the time period recorded his life.
Witht the exception of the apostles, all the others are best on hearsay, yes?
> Hell, a modern president and an intern can't even get a story straight on a BJ for more than a few months...
Maybe not. But if they said that what 8really* happned was a miracle that happened i the Oval office... does the fact that the Oval office can be confirmed to have existed atthe tiem make their explanation true?
> If the resurrection was a phony, those in power (both Roman and Jewish) would have been the first in line to discredit it.
How so? What was there to discredit for *years* after the fact? What records do we have from the Romans of the time saying anything like "We nailed this guy up, he died, and then apparently he came back."?
> Most apostles were put to death because they refused to deny Jesus.
Again... acording to whom?
> However, Hitler's inner circle, the ones who actually knew him and knew what a lie the Third Reich was, nearly to a man all tried to escape to live. None wanted to die for what they knew was a lie because they knew the truth. They were direct eye witnesses.
Yes... and many of them swore by Nazi party politics and the glory of Hitlerism for as long as they lived. In some cases that wasn;t so long, of course, but the lieks of Goering stood by his BS till the end. Goebbels, the man most likely to knwo what the lies were - since he made 'em up - killed himself and his family when he knew that the end of the reich was at hand.
Peopel can convince themselves that *anything* is true, given time and effort.
> When you basically say that all historians and eye witnesses are suspect and hearsay, how we we agree or disagree on any historical reference?
As I said before, "suspect" is a matter of just what is said. If I told you that right now I'm eating lunch, that is somethign that can be safely assumed to ahve a high level of likelihood. If I were to tell you that right now I'm surrounded by adoring, naked women while fighting off an invasion of slavering space monsters... my simply sayign so shoung not be enough.
> Now, let us take the case of Jesus. Someone who was killed for basically saying he was a King and Son of God (blasphemy) by the powers in charge (Roman and Jewish).
Allegedly. Got any Roman records of that event?
> Maybe we can agree on this - a man named Jesus did exist.
Indeed so. He used to mow my lawn occaisionally when I lived in California. Jesus Rodrigues.
If the story is false, it doesn't matter.
If it is true, what could possibly matter more?
> I am suggesting that you go and do read the research of trusted and vetted scholars who can put some of these augments (with evidence) in a better light to comprehend (at least much better than me typing in this little box).
I plan to do so. Being prodded by a good friend who's deeply religious to read a few specific. However, I come at things from a skeptical (read: heretical-tie-him-to-a-stake-and-burn-him) viewpoint when it comes to fantastical stuff. History is replete with miracles that turn out to be bunk when you examine them in greater detail; I see no reason to automatically assume that a story is miraculous when basic human nature describes it just as well.
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