44% of Americans Favor Curtailing Muslim Civil Liberties (or do we)

The Volokh Conspiracy ^ | December 18, 2004 at 12:10pm] | Orin Kerr

[ican'tbelieveit]

I don't think it is right either. But, if they asked me if I think ME travelers should face tighter scrutiny, I would have responded yes. Does that mean I think they should have their civil liberties curtailed, no. But, it would have been reported that way.

But, Christians, on the other hand, have lost civil liberties. It is already going on. Where is the outrage at that?

[ican'tbelieveit]

Very good addition.

[Publius6961]

You see where I'm going with that.

No I don't. You seem to have fallen for SM*-lover propaganda.

You really have to dig to discover Nichol's and McVeigh's religion.
The SMs* have it in our face at every murdering videotaped outrage: Allah is Great!" on the banner behind them as they behead a helpless civilian. You really think there is an equivalence here?

*SM© = Sweet Muslims

[exnavychick]

Clearly, there is not enough outrage. It seems that more and more folks are complaining though, and that's good.

It ALSO seems to me that more so-called moderate Muslims need to speak up in defense of the Islam THEY practice, rather than let extremists hijack or define their faith.

That's what I think, anyway.

[Publius6961]

We change this at our peril.

We treat islam as a religion at our peril.

Which is likely to kill the most people?
Sorry, "hurt feelings" don't count.

[The Spirit Of Allegiance]

I say curtail the 'civil liberties' of ANYONE who dares to hyphenate their nation to second place.

African-American
Hispanic-American
Asian-American
Euro-American
et cetera-American
= UN-American

If you are truly an American, jump into the melting pot and MELT--show your allegiance to OUR Constitution and Flag--THEN your ethnic background differences will then greatly enrich and not divide this country. However, if you for political/financial gain insist on being a mugwump-American, I say NO civil rights for you....Jesse Jackson and your ilk--you have allegiance to some other country or entity first as demonstrated by what you call yourself....you can't take the Fifth Amendment on what you say every day....you're an Outlaw, not under the protection of our civilian laws....

[exnavychick]

That's a good point that you had to dig to find out their faith, whereas Atta and the others had theirs right out front.

But the fact remains that people have had their civil liberties curtailed in the past due to religion or ethnicity, and nothing good came of it. Remember the Holocaust? I'm not saying that you advocate that kind of thing, but I'm sure there were plenty of Germans who thought it was okey dokey to send the Jews to concentration camps and never spared a thought as to what might happen next.

We established a freedom of religon here (1st Amendment ring a bell?) for a reason. I don't think tinkering with the Constitution on this one is a good idea...too many people can hijack the process and pervert it to their own ends. I don't think anything like the Holocaust could happen again, or the Japanese internment camps, for that matter. And I am GLAD. That type of behavior offends me as an American.

I, frankly, don't care to have anyone telling them that they cannot practice their religon or curtail civil rights on the basis of religon alone. Not a good precendent. I am all for defense, so let's use the laws and technology we have, rather than treating some citizens as second-class out of a misguided sense of caution.

[Publius6961]

This really chaps my hide! I better stop posting until I cool down. What's next?

Rapist-American?
Bank-robber-American?
Gay-American? Wait. They already tried that one.
Killer-American?
Cannibal-American?

Sorry folks. I will not trivialize my nationality by associating it with any sick, murdering, criminal, sicko criminal enterprise. Not even one masquerading as a religion!

[muslims=borg]

How about we start by deporting all Muslims that are not US citizens and see how things improve from there ? No student visas either.

[dagnabbit]

Next year, like last year and this year, the ClintonBushWhatever administration will give green cards to about 100,000 more foreign muslims.

The following list does not include those getting refugee or asylee status, or of course, illegal aliens, allowed to stay through non-enforcement of immigration laws.

Birth Country	Legal USA Immigrants 2002	Muslim population percentage	Estimated 2002 Muslim Legal Immigrants
Pakistan	9,415	97	9,133
Iran	7,230	99	7,158
India	50,228	14	7,032
Philippines	45,250	14	6,335
Nigeria	7,872	75	5,904
Ethiopia	6,635	65	4,313
Bangladesh	4,616	85	3,924
Egypt	3,348	94	3,147
Morocco	3,137	99	3,096
Turkey	3,029	100	3,023
Jordan	2,927	95	2,781
Albania	3,362	75	2,522
Russia	13,935	18	2,508
Somalia	2,444	100	2,444
Iraq	2,450	97	2,377
Lebanon	2,956	70	2,069
Syria	1,938	90	1,744
Indonesia	1,805	95	1,715
Sudan	1,883	85	1,601
Yemen	1,382	99	1,368
Ghana	4,410	30	1,323
Uzbekistan	1,445	88	1,272
Afghanistan	1,252	100	1,252
Guyana	6,809	15	1,021
Sierra Leone	1,492	65	970
Kenya	3,209	30	947
Algeria	759	99	751
Niger	808	91	735
Saudi Arabia	735	100	735
Romania	3,655	20	731
Azerbaijan	746	93	697
Togo	1,187	55	653
Kuwait	707	89	629
Malaysia	1,200	52	624
Serbia and Mont.	2,994	19	569
Bulgaria	3,825	14	536
Liberia	1,766	30	530
Cameroon	927	55	510
Senegal	522	95	496
Eritrea	556	80	445
Thailand	3,126	14	438
Israel	2,741	14	384
UAE	380	96	365
Tanzania	554	65	360
Tunisia	353	98	346
Cote d'Ivoire	483	60	290
Kyrgyzstan	356	76	271
United Kingdom	9,527	3	257
Macedonia	653	30	196
Germany	5,064	3	172
Canada	11,350	1	168
France	2,375	7	166
Uganda	455	36	164
Libya	140	100	140
Mauritania	131	100	131
Guinea-Bissau	176	70	123
Fiji	1,095	11	120
Burma	1,193	10	119
Tajikistan	137	85	116
Sri Lanka	1,246	9	112
Mali	124	90	112
Singapore	582	17	99
Nepal	2,095	4	84
Georgia	735	11	81
Oman	76	100	76
Turkmenistan	84	87	73
Qatar	72	100	72
Argentina	3,129	2	63
Japan	5,971	1	60
Bahrain	59	100	59
Zimbabwe	358	15	54
Panama	1,164	4	47
Suriname	180	25	45
South Africa	2,210	2	44
Zambia	280	15	42
Cyprus	123	33	41
Australia	1,836	2	38
Brazil	6,331	1	38
Hong Kong	3,574	1	36
Sweden	963	4	35
Burkina Faso	60	50	30
Netherlands	981	3	29
Guinea	29	95	28
Cambodia	2,263	1	23
Malawi	62	35	22
Italy	1,644	1	16
Djibouti	16	94	15
Maldives	15	100	15
Burundi	74	20	15
Angola	59	25	15
Croatia	1,153	1	14
Brunei	20	63	13
Benin	76	15	11
Mauritius	57	20	11
Mozambique	36	29	10
Greece	651	2	10
Madagascar	40	20	8
Chad	8	85	7
Mongolia	153	4	6
Malta	37	14	5
Norway	320	2	5
Cen. African Rep.	6	55	3
Comoros	3	86	3
Swaziland	23	10	2
Namibia	40	5	2
Aruba	27	5	1
Botswana	27	5	1
United States	32	4	1
Rwanda	109	1	1
Bhutan	15	5	1
Slovenia	64	1	1
Reunion	3	20	1
Lesotho	5	10	1
TOTAL			95,577

[Capt. Tom]

WESTERN DEFENSE COMMAND AND FOURTH
ARMY WARTIME CIVIL CONTROL
ADMINISTRATION

Presidio of San Francisco, California
April 1, 1942

INSTRUCTIONS
TO ALL PERSONS OF
JAPANESE
ANCESTRY

Living in the Following Area:
All that portion of the City and County of San Francisco, lying generally west of the of the north-south line established by Junipero Serra Boulevard, Worchester Avenue, and Nineteenth Avenue, and lying generally north of the east-west line established by California Street, to the intersection of Market Street, and thence on Market Street to San Francisco Bay.
All Japanese persons, both alien and non-alien, will be evacuated from the above designated area by 12:00 o’clock noon Tuesday, April 7, 1942.

No Japanese person will be permitted to enter or leave the above described area after 8:00 a.m., Thursday, April 2, 1942, without obtaining special permission from the Provost Marshal at the Civil Control Station located at:


1701 Van Ness Avenue
San Francisco, California
The Civil Control Station is equipped to assist the Japanese population affected by this evacuation in the following ways:

1. Give advise and instructions on the evacuation.
2. Provide services with respect to the management, leasing, sale, storage or other disposition of most kinds of property including real estate, business and professional equipment, household goods, boats, automobiles, livestock, etc. 3. Provide temporary residence elsewhere for all Japanese in family groups.

4. Transport persons and a limited amount of clothing and equipment to their new residence as specified below.

The Following Instructions Must Be Observed:
1. A responsible member of each family, preferably the head of the family, or the person in whose name most of the property is held, and each individual living alone must report to the Civil Control Station to receive further instructions. This must be done between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m., Thursday, April 2, 1942, or between 8:00 a.m. and 5 p.m., Friday, April 3, 1942.
2. Evacuees must carry with them on departure for the Reception Center, the following property:

a. Bedding and linens (no mattress) for each member of the family.
b. Toilet articles for each member of the family.
c. Extra clothing for each member of the family.
d. Sufficient knives, forks, spoons, plates, bowls and cups for each member of the family.
e. Essential personal effects for each member of the family.
All items carried will be securely packaged, tied and plainly marked with the name of the owner and numbered in accordance with instructions received at the Civil Control Station.
The size and number of packages is limited to that which can be carried by the individual or family group.

No contraband items as described in paragraph 6, Public Proclamation No. 3, Headquarters Western Defense Command and Fourth Army, dated March 24, 1942, will be carried.

3. The United States Government through its agencies will provide for the storage at the sole risk of the owner of the more substantial household items, such as iceboxes, washing machines, pianos and other heavy furniture. Cooking utensils and other small items will be accepted if crated, packed and plainly marked with the name and address of the owner. Only one name and address will be used by a given family.

4. Each family, and individual living alone, will be furnished transportation to the Reception Center. Private means of transportation will not be utilized. All instructions pertaining to the movement will be obtained at the Civil Control Station.

Go to the Civil Control Station at 1701 Van Ness Avenue, San Francisco, California, between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m., Thursday, April 2, 1942, or between 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m., Friday, April 3, 1942, to receive further instructions.
J. L. DeWITT
Lieutenant General, U. S. Army
Commanding

[MineralMan]

Yes, and Ronald Reagan apologized for the internment. Reparations were paid. We were wrong to do that for citizens of Japanese ancestry.

[Publius6961]

We established a freedom of religon here (1st Amendment ring a bell?) for a reason.

My familiarity with the Bill of Rights is very healthy, thankyouverymuch.
I am tempted to say that the Founding Fathers were naive in not defining "religion". That they should have known what islam is. It is bastardization of the concept of a nation. Clearly it is not a religion in the commonly understood way.
The only explanation I can imagine is that in the Founding Fathers day, Islam was clearly and obviously a joke; not to be taken seriously, and only a fool would cite it as anything serious, religion or otherwise.

Read everything you can get your hands on about dar al Islam and dar al Harb. That defines your religion for you.

The first edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica was published in 1771. It has a beautifully un-PC entry on islam, or as it was referred to then, mahometans. Here is a brief excerpt. Wish I had time to transcribe the whole thing:

...he also repeated to her( Khadijah, his wife ) a passage which he pretended had been revealed to him of the ministry of the angel...

A choice of words and phrasing sure to enrage the current incarnation of the so-called religion.

[exnavychick]

Well, I can see that you have your mind made up on this, and no amount of talking on my part will change it. We will just have to leave it here, then, because I don't agree with you.

BTW, I am sorry if I offended you with my reference to the First Amendment, but it seemed to me that you were ignoring it...it appears that you are, since you think the Founding Fathers were naive. I cannot agree with you on that, either.

Have a good day, and Merry Christmas. Perhaps we can talk again on a different topic.

[Publius6961]

I agree.
My mind is made up.

Merry Christmas to you too.

[The Spirit Of Allegiance]

"The first edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica was published in 1771. It has a beautifully un-PC entry on islam, or as it was referred to then, mahometans. Here is a brief excerpt. Wish I had time to transcribe the whole thing..."

Do you have this edition on CD-ROM or on the original stone tablets? (reverent, non-blasphemous grin)....Would LOVE a CD, let me know if they're for sale.

[Travis McGee]

The OBL won't get it until an American city is smoking, or a pandemic is released.

Then the OBL won't matter, they will be swept aside like the "German American Bund" in 1942.

[TFFKAMM]

McVeigh had no religion. He was a committed atheist who refused even a final chance to repent before G-d before his execution.

I have no idea what faith Nichols has, if any.

[exnavychick]

No offense meant, but...do you have a source for that? If I am wrong about him, well, no problem. LOL After all, I can hardly be glad if he was a Christian, kwim?

[exnavychick]

From what I have found in just the past few minutes, he seems to have been affiliated with something called Christian Identity movement...apparently a bunch of racist militia types who quoted Scripture to justify violence against both the government and minorities such as the Jews. I have only seen one article, by contrast, that states he wasn't a Christian. The rest seem to imply it. The result, to me, is that I am now uncertain that he was a Christian, but I cannot be convinced as yet that he wasn't one, at least marginally.