Posted on 12/22/2004 7:05:54 AM PST by Graybeard58
Well, guess that's the difference between us, my Son goes to a school where religion and God are part of everything, not limited and closed behind church doors 1 hour a week. When they hear a siren, they stop to offer a quick prayer for those that the sirens are for, regardless of what subject is being taught. The priest can enter during any class and ask or answer questions regarding theology at any time regardless of what the time is "officially" designated for.
This school consistently outperforms EVERY government school in the area, and MOST of the the non parochial private schools as well (with tuitions nearly 5 times as high). With its typical 8th grade graduate reading, writing and performing mathematics at or close to college level.
I have no issue with my son being exposed to someone who holds a different belief, provided such exposure is not depriving them of their studies.
Throughout my schooling I learned many things from many teachers, and they weren't all lessons in the subjects that the teacher was "officially" teaching.
You see, school is about educating a child, and educating a child is about teaching them to THINK, not be mindless automatons. But to take in information from many sources, process it in a sane and rational way and from that deriving a rational, intelligent conclusion that can be articulated to others and understood by all (even if they choose not to agree).
Reason is one of god's greatest gift's to man, it seperates us from the beasts of the field, it is something that is common to all men, regardless of what religion they follow or faith they believe in. It is cultivating that reason, growing it, nurturing it and harnessing it that we achieve the greatness that God has intended for us.
If this teacher has been lacking in his teaching of his topic and his students are failing to learn, then by all means fire him. If he's teaching things that are violent or harmful, by all means fire him. However if he's teaching his subject well, which at least from this report it seems he is, encouraging his students to learn, but occassionally mentions God in his classroom, then this is no reason to fire him at all.
Christianity is not part of the indoctrination program of the public schools.
On the other side, the Connecticut second grade teacher who dragged her inductees on a "field trip" to an environmental protest a few days ago is fully exempt from sanctions when preaching her religious beliefs about "mother earth".
> If parents want their kids to do well they'll seek out teachers like this one.
If parents want their children preached to... they'll take them to a preacher. If parents want them to learn math... they *should* be able to take them to a math teacher. Which this guy obviously ain't. It's not just the wasted ten minutes up front, it's the disruption caused throughout the rest of the hour.
He was hired to teach math. By his own admission he was spending 10 minutes of each class promoting his religious beliefs, that's 20% of each 50 minute class. That's dishonest of him because he was hired to teach math.
He knew he was not meeting his contractual obligation and that's why he chose not to fight his dismissal.
He will be an asset in the right school.
Amen. My daughter is currently attending a Christian college after being in secular schools all her life. She loves that each class is opened in prayer and that everything they do is a form of worshipping God with the gifts he has given. She claims she is much better focused because of it and she is more motivated to excel at subjects she doesn't like.
Exactly. Force your belief that anything CONTRARY to the Bible is wonderful and you get promoted to head of the school system. Talk about Christ and how He frees you from troubles so that you can think clearly and you're fired.
WAY too big a double standard for me.
> my Son goes to a school where religion and God are part of everything
That's nice. How does one use God to do math? The article stated he regularly chewed up 10 minutes of class time. Ten minutes out of 50 is a good fraction. Use your math skills and figure it out! :P
> This school consistently outperforms EVERY government school in the area
That's good. But that comes from discipline and a culture of hard work. These do not exist in most public schools, sadly. Throwing religion into public schools will not help that, but will instead dilute what little discipline there is.
Yes I was thinking about an immature algebra teacher I had in 9th grade. She wore short skirts and seemed to flirt with the male students. I did not learn much from her. So perhaps I should eat some of my words. Her thing was not preaching Jesus but acquiring attention for herself.
Jesus prayed ALL the time. In fact there is a verse in the new testament telling us to pray without ceasing. As I said I admire his conviction but I do not think he used wisdom. We are to be "as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves".
I'm sure because God is definately working thru this man and he would have had a profound effect on the children he taught long after they forget how to reduce equations.
Not Kwanzaa? Didn't Jefferson's slaves invent Kwanzaa? It just came back into fashion in the 1970s...
I know many teachers who happen to be Christians, and they take their faith with them to their public school jobs. They pray for their students in private.
However, moral standards could be and should be encouraged in all schools without doctrine entering into it.
I presume you're talking about the hypocrisy of taking money under false pretences. He hired on as a math teacher, yet used his captive audience for the purpose of promoting his religious beliefs.
The district was right to fire him.
I had a designer in my group who had similar problems. He was proselytizing when he was supposed to be designing. I informed him he was free to do that before or after work, or on break, or at lunch, with any willing party. He agreed and the problem went away.
Why should he have been fired?
Why can he not answer questions like anyone else?
If a student asked a teacher that was a volunteer fireman, 'Why do you fight fires?' would anyone argue he should be fired?
If a student asked this teacher how he had the peace of mind to not be distracted by events in the world around him and he answered honestly, He should be fired for that?
Why?
Why do so many Christians think that the First Amendment removes their right to express their religious beliefs when it does EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE?
Read it for yourself and Madisons original to see its intent with your own eyes and then tell me it would justify this kind of discrimination against Christians.
If a math teacher that was a volunteer fireman started stopping students in the hall and giving them lectures on fire control ...
How does one use God to do math?
My word your world view is warped. One does not USE God at all, to do ANYTHING, that very notion is folly.
Again, even if he used 10 minutes of every class to discuss religion, has it harmed or prevented his students from learning Math? Certainly nothing in this article implies that it did.
If you believe education and learning are like an assembly line job where X minutes 5 days a week, every week of the year results in you learning... then you really haven't bothered looking at Public School's performance records at all.
Many classes I had as a child, as much as 30 minutes or at times an entire period would end up being dedicated to a topic other than the primary subject of the class if some topic or another would come up.
Free intellectual discussion is fundamental to learning, learning isn't compartmentalized to one item.
Again, if the teachers actions were harming his students learning, then by all means fire him. However nothing in this article remotely suggests his students were struggling or performing worse than students of other teachers in the subject.
This is purely an assault on God from the communist schools of Amerika. Because in their world view, God is a threat.
And discipline and hard work are not the sole reason of parochial schools superior performance to public schools. Again this is a folly argument of folks who basically hold fundamental anomosity toward religion.
When you understand your life is a gift from God, and that all of your actions and everything you do in life are a reflection of your appreciation and respect for that gift, and that you are indeed here for a reason. Your view of the world is fundamentally different than those who turn their backs to God.
When a child in a godless household is mean to his sister... what argument does the parent give for the child to stop? Don't do it because its not nice? Don't do it because you wouldn't want it done to you? That's about all there is to offer the child as guidance in a godless world view... and those are pretty lousy answers to WHY NOT. After all a child personally might not be negatively impacted the way his victim was by the same action if it had been perpetrated on him personally...etc.
When a child in a house of God engages in such actions, the arguments for not doing it are not mearly so trite...you don't do that simply because its not nice, or simply because you don't want it done to you. You don't do it, because all that you are is a gift from God, all of your talents and abilities are gifts. When you use them, any of them to harm others you disrespect the gift you have been given, and in turn disrespect that which gave them to you. We are all not merely humans, we are all children of God, and we ALL have meaning and purpose.
You cannot dismiss the fundamental difference of this reality by simply saying its about simply discipline. Surely there is more discipline in private than public schools generally. There is also generally more parental involvement as well... and those are 2 big factors.. however, to believe that is the ONLY reason is folly. When children know they have a place, a purpose and a reason for being and that all of those things come from the Almighty, and that understanding is reinforced and reiterated in all that they do, they are going to perform better no matter what.
May be true, but not his role.
The district's lawyer, Kelley Baker, however, asserted that the law clearly prohibits teachers from imposing their religious beliefs on students and from praying with or in the presence of them.
In a legal brief for the board, Baker wrote that school districts that fail to stop improper practices regarding religion can be held liable for a teacher's actions.
"School administrators have both the right and the obligation to direct teachers not to engage in such activity during school, and to stop it if they are already engaging in it," Baker wrote.
You can't ask a school to bear the liability for this.
Jerry Kalina, an assistant principal at the high school, testified that a co-teacher from Ziegler's classroom first reported Oct. 4 that Ziegler was talking to students about his religious beliefs in class. Ziegler was told to stop, but the co-teacher reported on Nov. 1 that he was doing it again, Kalina said. A few days later, a student came to Kalina's office and said Ziegler was talking about his faith and that it upset her, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler had stopped her in the hall and asked if he could pray for her. She told him she felt uncomfortable while he prayed. The girl's mother complained on Nov. 8 that she expected her daughter to learn math, not religion, in the class, Kalina said. Kalina said he again told Ziegler to stop.
If nothing else, he ought to be fired for insubordination.
On Nov. 16, a student again raised the issue of Ziegler speaking about religion in class, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"
Not exactly math instruction.
"My opinion is Mr. Ziegler was hired to teach math," he said. "And math instruction must come first."
Amen!
"That's nice. How does one use God to do math?"
Well, like this:
Prayer to St. Joseph by Pope St. Pius X
Glorious St. Joseph, model of all who are devoted to labor, obtain for me the grace to work in the spirit of penance in expiation of my many sins; to work conscientiously by placing love of duty above my inclinations; to gratefully and joyously deem it an honor to employ and to develop by labor the gifts I have received from God, to work methodically, peacefully, and in moderation and patience, without ever shrinking from it through weariness or difficulty to work; above all, with purity of intention and unselfishness, having unceasingly before my eyes death and the account I have to render of time lost, talents unused, good not done, and vain complacency in success, so baneful to the work of God. All for Jesus, all for Mary, all to imitate thee, O patriarch St. Joseph! This shall be my motto for life and eternity.
"Ten minutes out of 50 is a good fraction."
Better 50 minutes of focused work than 60 of slipshod.
"But that comes from discipline and a culture of hard work."
The best discipline is self-discipline, and God will help you with that if you seek His help. Anything I do, I do better if I pray first.
He never did anything out of false pretenses. He never promised to stop talking about God. In fact one of the most important things about math is teaching children how and why its useful. Most children ask why is this important. There is no better reason than using our gifts, including math for God.
The hypcoracy involved is the school desires to project the image of being fair and balanced to all while as others have pointed out it clearly singles out Christians who act on their beliefs while ingoring others who act on their beliefs. The children notice. The only problem I have is the man was not obedient to his employer. He should have been but maybe God called him to take a stand.
The district was right to fire him.
No protest. They should be able to choose who they want.
I had a designer in my group who had similar problems. He was proselytizing when he was supposed to be designing. I informed him he was free to do that before or after work, or on break, or at lunch, with any willing party. He agreed and the problem went away.
Okay, but if he continued because he felt called by God, you should have fired him and that is fine because God would be using that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He didn't do it EVERY day. He said some days.
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