Posted on 12/22/2004 11:12:25 AM PST by JeffersonRepublic.com
The contretemps with the United States over the sale of Israeli-made Harpy assault drones to China is threatening to turn into a crisis with China as well. Washington is demanding that Israel not send back to China some of the drones sent here for upgrading. The drones are already Chinese property.
The Israelis who heard the demand were astonished, considering there is no American technology in the drones. However, American sources say Israel will have no choice but to comply with the U.S. demand. The powerful pro-Taiwan lobby is warning that advanced Israeli weapons technologies could be used against U.S. soldiers defending the island state off the coast of China.
The crisis in U.S.-Israeli defense relations arose when the Pentagon's number three, Undersecretary of State for Policy Douglas Feith, learned that Israel had sold advanced-technology Harpy assault drones to China in the mid-1990s and was upgrading the unmanned airborne vehicles for the Chinese.
Feith, a strong supporter of Israel, was furious and backed by his superior, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, another ardent Israel supporter in the administration. Feith reportedly demanded the resignation of Amos Yaron, the Defense Ministry director general, on the grounds that Yaron had not provided a full accounting of the Israeli deal with China.
The Harpy case is not the first crisis that has arisen between the U.S. and Israel over sales to China. In a similar case, Israel went ahead with a plan to sell a flying radar plane known as the Phalcon to China, but the U.S. vetoed the sale.
Thanks for nothing.
jesus...I never trusted israel.
This is troubling.
It also doesn't make sense from Israel's perspective, since the Chinese are now kissing Iranian and Arab a$$ to ensure a supply of oil.
Its a one way friendship in which money trumps everything.
The Isrealis must have clintonistas among them, too. Every country seems to. There really is a vast leftwing conspiracy.
The Pakis are trying to force Musharrif out by Dec 31st. If he doesn't leave, the militant Islamists will force him out. That leaves militant Islam in charge of Paki nukes. India is nervous and on alert.
Happy New Year?
the Israeli have been known to sell ammo to the arabs. The consenses is that they are going to get it anyway, they might as well make the money from them.
They've been doing to us this for a long time. Perhaps they should make CHINA their great ally instead of us.
ENOUGH!
Thank you, Douglas and Paul. Now make sure they don't get W, Cheney and Rummy to make us back down.
And we've sold weapons to the Muslim enemies of Israel.
Having said that, Israel should go along with US policy on this. Armaments sales are a huge money maker for Israel.
Iran isn't going to strike Israel with a nuke.
MAD still rules. As nutty as the Iranian government is they won't commit national suicide. Anything you hear otherwise is rhetoric and posturing.
This only makes sense. Iranian aspirations towards nukes are based on balance of power considerations, not desires for self-imolation.
“And we've sold weapons to the Muslim enemies of Israel.”
If you’re insinuating that this is a tit-for-tat, I don’t think Israel would like this game if we started supplying their enemy’s with F-16’s and other advance weapons.
Israel maybe able to make a quick buck off of China, but we could wipe them out just by denying them military assistance. They should think twice before telling the United States not to sell arms in the mid-east because we just might not sell to them.
We have done this countless times. Wake up.
Anyway, I love Israel and you hate it, so your slant here is no mystery.
We do sell them F-16s. And F-15s. And AWACs and AAMRAMS and Abrams tanks. Welcome to the world.
They've indicated they will, that the destruction of the Jewish State will cost them no more that 50 million casualties, a cost the Arab world can bear. Coming from a culture which exults in suicide in the name of religion, I don't think you can assume their concept of MAD is the same as yours.
Yeah, and where are all the outraged paleo-cons/Israel haters on FR when we hear about the US giving aid to the Palis or the Egyptians? Or having dealings with the Saudis? Oh...silent, because, well....I guess they can be trusted.
The US already not only supplies the Egyptians with M1-A1 tanks, it also licenced out the technology to them so they can build them themselves. So why not Israel? There's no point in slinging mud over this stuff: Everybody -- even Canada, surprisingly enough -- does it.
Take my word for it: In the international arms trade, there are no friends, there is no honor and everybody, except the dealers and buyers, loses.
When the US sells top waeopns to Saudi and Egypt its ok, but when Israel sells weaopns to China it is not ok.
Thats all I wanted to know.
Sounds like Armegeddon to me! Buy Gold!
<< There really is a vast leftwing conspiracy. >>
There really is every darn insult a lunatic left wing fringer has ever spewed at and/or impugned the character of one of us.
Just as there really is [Even though I invented it right here on sunny-down-town FReeRepublic] Psychopathological Projection Syndrome -- and its alive and well in every sufferer of the Liberal Psychosis!
Half as bad I think.
Few are global as we are. Most don't care nor have any sense of Geopolitical security policy or agenda. The word "geopolitical" (sounds good) is thrown around by big heads in the media, but few even know what the difference is between a national, regional, or global power.
We are strategic, have a geopolitical view and are global in our reach. Israel does not think or act that way. They are regional in every aspect. If they can make a quick buck in China they will. The ramifications they worry about because we tell them to worry about it. Germany is attempting to push the EU to drop its arms restrictions against China. Why? Possible EF sales. Do they care about Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Singapore or Taiwan? No.
Few have forces spread out all over the world as we do. Few are genuinely concerned about some other place far away and practically no one is tied into the defense of others the way we are. France don’t care about S. Korea! That’s far far away and the Chinese are no threat to them regardless of nearly what they sell. If they screw Australia, is their any real affect on them? No! Is Australia going to pressure France with trade, aide or military action? No.
Perfect example. Germany years ago (1988) developed the Armbrust (A light anti tank weapon ideal for urban combat) and sold the production rights to Singapore. Made quick cash that way. Years later they were kind of surprised when their Armbrust was a threat weapon in the Balkans because Singapore turned around and sold this weapon to anyone who can pay that is not a threat to them. Singapore don’t care and isn’t going to look to hard or do to much research on why they should NOT sell to Croatia, Bosnia and several others. In fact Germany even ended up providing this weapon to some of its favored factions in the Balkans (Croatia) to give them a heads up. This was a not so nice situation when NATO went into the Balkans and all troops had to be briefed about a allied weapon system (fairly new) which was proliferated and very capable in the hands of the enemy.
http://www.nisat.org/default.asp?page=/search.asp (Type in Armbrust and the search results pop up)
http://www.jedsite.info/support/alpha/armbrust_series/armbrust-series.html (Shows what it looks like)
We are an oddball. We have troops on the DMZ in S. Korea, we’re involved with Taiwan, Singapore, Thailand, the Balkans, Sinai, Columbia, Liberia………… We’re just all over the place. If someone decides to sell some high tech gizmo to some cartel in Latin America, even this would affect us. Because we support the Columbian government and have troops on ground there. Our perspective is a lot different from that of Israel, Singapore, France, or Germany. All regional powers without a geopolitical security policy-or strategic reach. They are global economic powers, but not military powers that project force or are tied into the defense of much outside their own boarders.
However, I think it’s still not that bad in this case. Israel may spy on us and have its interests, but in the end they are very interested in making us happy. If we say we won’t be happy if they do something they will think about it real hard, and in the end probably make the right decision for us all. We have a great deal of influence over Israel; at least in matter such as this.
Red6
Why? Can you eat it?
And I support the USA and the US war on terror as Israel is in the same war. However when you sell top weapons to countries that doesnt even recognize our existment (Saudi- you sell them 4 times more weaopns that to Israel) you cant expect from us to consider cancelling sells to potential US enemies. And pleace, China at least recognizes the US existment...
'Cause Saudi pilots are 1/20 of the skill and cojones of IAF.
And the Chinese military skills are 1/20 of the skills and cojones of the US army.
Whats your point?
I am fond of Israel myself, but I have to admit that the Israelis have a long history of subrosa relations with the Red Communists. Given that Israel was founded as a socialist theocracy, this is not too difficult to comprehend.
Too bad that the United States has allowed the Arabists at Foggy Bottom to dominate US mid East policy.
"Regime change" in the area would have been imposed by Israel long ago if we hadn't prevented it.
Yes thats why the U.S.S.R made huge efforts betwin 1950-1985 in destroying Israel through giving free weapons to the Arab nations and full political support.
I suggest to everyone here to consider the actions of their own country before blaming other countries for doing the same actions.
Good night to you,
From the Negev desert, Israel.
I'm not buying the comparison. China is a significant long term threat to us and therefore to Israel. The comparison aside, it's not about being fair. If we wanted to be fair we'd let every nation have a seat on the security council and we'd abide by every decision. It's a balance and it's been pointed out here that while our decisions are impacted by oil and a desire to maintain stability in the region, Israel also needs to consider our needs. It's not fair. Too bad. Israel will bend or they will lose much needed support.
Israel is just doing the same thing America does. America funds Egypt and Palestine and is close to Israel's enemies like Saudi Arabia. That said, Israel and America enjoy a special relationship and it would be horrible for anything to damage it. So Israel should do what America is asking in this situation.
Really. And why is it we get oh-so offended whenever anyone suggests that one of Our Blessed Political Saints of Most High may have made a wrong decision or should re-think what they are doing?
Clips…
The sale of F-15E bombers provides a good case study of how others respond to sales of high-tech U.S. arms. Saudi Arabia had sought to buy the jet in the mid-1980s, but Congress opposed the sale on the grounds that it would threaten Israel. (While relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia improved following the Gulf War, the two are technically still in a state of war.) In September 1992, the Bush Administration and Congress approved the export of 48 of the aircraft to Saudi Arabia, largely on the basis of an aggressive "jobs now" campaign waged by McDonnell Douglas (MD), the manufacturer of the aircraft. The Air Force was finished procuring the jet, and so MD devised a national campaign to promote the controversial sale explicitly on the number of jobs that it would sustain (see Arms Sales Monitor No. 16 and No. 17). The sale got caught up in presidential politics, with then-candidate Bill Clinton endorsing the deal while on a campaign stop in St. Louis, where the jet is manufactured. Shortly thereafter President Bush announced his support for the sale while at a campaign-style rally at the McDonnell Douglas factory.
This was the first time the jet--which can deliver twelve tons of bombs 1,000 miles--had been exported to any nation. Only two years previously, the plane was rushed into service with the U.S.Air Force for the Gulf War, where it was used on hundreds of deep-strike bombing raids. The Saudi planes will be less capable than U.S. F-15E jets: they will carry less ordnance and are not currently slated to carry AMRAAM or HARM missiles, and the radar will have a lower resolution. Nevertheless, this was the most sophisticated combat aircraft the United States had ever exported...until a year and a half later, when the Clinton Administration and Congress agreed to give Israel 21 F-15E bombers with greater capabilities, in order to maintain Israel's qualitative military edge over Saudi Arabia.
Having gained U.S. government approval for two sales of its most advanced fighter-bomber, MD is eagerly anticipating more: It recently competed (unsuccessfully) for a sale of 20 to 80 long-range attack planes to the United Arab Emirates. The winner of that $8 billion-plus competition is Lockheed Martin, which will develop an "enhanced strategic" version of its popular F-16 fighter for the U.A.E. The F-16"ES" would have several improved features over the F-16s flown by the U.S. Air Force: a reduced radar signature, conformal fuel tanks, internal navigation and targeting gear and a un-refueled combat range of 1,000 miles. In addition, as a condition of the sale, the U.A.E. has demanded that the jets be equipped with the Air Force's most advanced medium-range air-to-air missile (AMRAAM)-- and the Clinton Administration agreed. Previously the U.S. had declined to export this missile to countries in the region. Now Israel, Egypt, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia have all lined up to get AMRAAMs.
Since the U.A.E. jet sale, Saudi Arabia has been making noises about buying more F-15s, which Israel opposes. Saudi Arabia has threatened the United States not to base decisions future export decisions on regional security and avoiding arms races: “Officials in the Saudi capital have hinted that the kingdom may look elsewhere for a replacement for the F-5 if the USA continues to link future military sales to Israeli security concerns.” (“Country Briefing: Saudi Arabia,” Jane's Defense Weekly, 18 August 1999, p. 30).
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm
Weapon sales (U.S. to the Middle East)
1. Saudi Arabia, 2. Egypt, 3. U.A.E. 4. Israel
Doesn't China still owe us the EP-3 spy-plane that one of their fly boys collided with in April of 2001? Put a lien on those drones.
Yes, the UAE faces grave external threats in the region. They need a 1,000 mile range. I think the Saudis, Bahrain, and the UAE got their AMRAAMs. Egypt is still waiting.
Armbrust considerably predates 1988; I first heard of it in the 1970s.
Far more likely Israel will will end up compensating China if the drones aren't returned.
Where did Egypt get its airforce from? who armed the PLO? I dont think its right for Israel to sell to China personally but dont put the US on some sort of pedestool where everything we do is right.
No.
“Where did Egypt get its airforce from? who armed the PLO? I dont think its right for Israel to sell to China personally but dont put the US on some sort of pedestool where everything we do is right.”
The United States can sell whatever it wants to anyone, and if Israel doesn’t like it, too bad. Israel can do the same thing, but if they continue to sell weapon to our military opponents, then they shouldn’t expect the United States to subsidies their military.
It’s not that I don’t like Israel. I just think the United States should be more concerned with how Israel uses the BILLIONS of dollar U.S. taxpayers give them. If Israel accepts our money, then they must play by our rules. Otherwise they should reject the money and do as they please.
You are absolutely right. We should consider the actions of our own government before we blame others.
For what its worth, one of our own Presidential Administration's ( Clinton) authorized the sale of plenty of advanced technology to the Chinese that we may have to face in the future, and the potential ramifactions of that sale far outweigh several unmanned drones that are mincement to an air defense battery upon sight.
Israel isnt a vassal state of the US. They are free to make whatever deals they make with other countries. Our interests and the interest of Israel are going to diverge at times because of understandable differences in national interests. Thats a simple fact, and one a lot of people seem to forget.
We dont agree all the time with what Great Britain on military sales either, so this isnt really significant to anyone except those who have a vested interest in taking every possible thing Israel does that may affect its relationship with the US and magnifying it to demonize Israel.
I'm a lot more concerned about AWAC's, F-15's and F-16's, licensed Abrams tanks, Patriot missile systems, and the fact they threaten US soldiers in the Middle East as well as Israelis sleeping in their beds at night, because they present a much larger clear and present danger than several drones in China. Those regimes in the Middle East can topple in a second, and history proves that.
Sleep well and dont worry. Its just another targeted and heavily slanted article designed to sew discontent and mayhem in US-Israeli relations.
The problem with trying to apply MAD to dictatorships is in differing concepts of "Mutual".
The Iranian Mullahs are very willing to trade millions of their own peons in exchange for the glory of having eliminated Israel. As long as they themselves are safe in some hidden bunker when the Israelis hit, they will not be affected.
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