This is one of the most important discussions that will be had coming out of all of this...
Sharper Minds Daily...
Posted on 12/31/2004 4:29:45 AM PST by jalisco555
Compassion is the best response when humanity faces the problem of evil, writes Edward Spence.
"Why did you do this to us, God? What did we do to upset you?" asked a woman in India this week, a heart-wrenching question asked in common these past few days by Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians. Nothing could have prepared us for what happened when the tsunami unleashed its terror. So we seek answers where answers are hard to come by, in either secular or sacred realms.
Traditionally, the Judeo-Christian God, considered the most supreme and perfect being in the universe, has been ascribed the following necessary attributes: omniscience (all-knowing), omnipresence (present everywhere at all times and at once), omnipotence (almighty and powerful) and benevolence (all good and caring).
How, then, did a God as powerful and benevolent as this allow such a thing to happen? If he is benevolent then he cannot also be omnipotent, for a God who has both these attributes would have wanted to, cared to and been able to prevent such a catastrophe.
Perhaps, though omnipotent, He is not benevolent. That might explain why, although it was within His power to stop the tsunami, He simply chose not to: God has His own reasons and we are not to ask why. However, this answer will not suffice since by definition God is perfect. Being perfect, He must of necessity not merely be omnipotent but benevolent as well.
A possible solution to this problem, traditionally known as the problem of evil, was offered by the heretical Manicheans, who believed not in one supreme being but two: one good God responsible for all the good things in life and another bad God, Satan, responsible for all the evil in the world.
St Augustine, a follower in his early 20s, became an ardent critic of this doctrine, thinking a weak God powerless to defeat Satan was not worth worshipping.
Philosophically, if God is perfect, then there can be only one perfect God, not two. In any case, evil is an imperfection and thus not a characteristic that can be attributed to God.
If the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are at play and the deaths caused by the tsunami are a cosmic payback in the form of karma, does that offer a solution, albeit a philosophical one, to the problem of evil? I think not. For how can children, some as young as a few months, who had not yet lived their lives, deserve to be punished so cruelly for their past sins - especially when they have not been offered the promised divine opportunity to atone for those sins through another life?
Even if solutions are forthcoming to these philosophical conundrums, humanely speaking they make little sense. Perhaps that is why some people remain sceptical about the presence of any divine providence ruling over us.
A compromise solution, between secular scepticism and a psychological need for the sacred, was offered by the Greek philosopher Epicurus. Although believing in gods, he claimed these divine beings would not want to diminish their heavenly happiness by mingling in the sordid affairs of mortals. For Epicurus, the gods were not crazy but simply indifferent to both human joys and sorrows. When it comes to social or natural evils, we are all alone.
But if natural disasters are merely random events caused by the uncaring and blind forces of nature, does this offer us any comfort or meaning in the face of the apocalyptic events on Boxing Day?
Even if our heads offer us such solutions, our hearts refuse to follow. For the problem of evil is an existential problem that confronts our own individual mortality and vulnerability to unknown and unexpected disasters.
Ultimately, heartfelt tears shed in earnest and with compassion, with offerings of charity for those who have suffered, are more meaningful than any theological and philosophical treatise on the problem of evil. Especially at Christmas when, according to the gospels, love is the single core message.
Perhaps this is the essence, if the legend is true, of what God learnt from us when He walked and suffered as a man among us. Ultimately, the problem of evil confronts us not as a puzzle to be solved but as a mystery to be experienced. And as Jesus and Plato before him indicated, the meaning of the mystery of life can be found only by experiencing another great mystery - the mystery of love.
Dr Edward Spence is a philosopher at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, Charles Sturt University.
No flames, please. Like many believers the theodicy issue (why bad things happen to good people) has long troubled me.
Your arms are too short to box with God.
This neglects to mention one of God's most important attributes. He is holy.
Of course God loves us. Why else would he send his son to this world to die a cruel death to pay the penalty for our sins. He loves us so much that he made a way for us to escape Hell. It is man who does not love God and rejects his gift of eternal life, arrogantly believing there is something good in us that will allow us to save ourselves.
Undeniably true.
Judaism's answer rejects dualism. God creates both good and evil, both light and darkness. As the Prophet Isaiah proclaimed, "I, the Lord, create all these things." Both are divine qualities and neither can exist without the other. Both nature and the humanity is one being in which both light and darkness exist. There's a wonderful beauty to both beyond compare but their dark side shows that life as it is lived is not all peacefulness and sweetness. There is violence and suffering. And they way forward is to make sure they never overwhelm each other. We ought to marvel not at how imperfect and sinful the world is but how much it embodies goodness and beauty. God helps us to find our way past the trials of this life to appreciate the way it can make us laugh and smile.
Thanks for the recommendation. I've read quite a bit on this topic here and there but still am not satisfied. I probably will just have to live with my ignorance and lack of understanding.
Anyone who knows his bible is not surprised by the destruction, just releived he himself did not get hit, and perhaps sad for those lost. God never promised goodwill and peace on THIS earth.
None of us will ever be. I am not satisfied that my mother and a close friend were taken from me. Yet they inspire me to be calm and happy and take solace in the true judgment of the Lord. I know He wants me to be happy. I will never stop questioning Him but I will always love Him.
The problem is how man defines "benevolence". God is benevolent, but also just and seeks to discipline His children. We may not understand the reasons "why" this happened, because we are limited in our comprehension of His will.
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good except God alone. (Mar 10:18)
Receiving Yourself in the Fires of Sorrow
. . . what shall I say? ’Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. ’Father, glorify Your name’
—John 12:27-28
As a saint of God, my attitude toward sorrow and difficulty should not be to ask that they be prevented, but to ask that God protect me so that I may remain what He created me to be, in spite of all my fires of sorrow. Our Lord received Himself, accepting His position and realizing His purpose, in the midst of the fire of sorrow. He was saved not from the hour, but out of the hour.
We say that there ought to be no sorrow, but there is sorrow, and we have to accept and receive ourselves in its fires. If we try to evade sorrow, refusing to deal with it, we are foolish. Sorrow is one of the biggest facts in life, and there is no use in saying it should not be. Sin, sorrow, and suffering are, and it is not for us to say that God has made a mistake in allowing them.
Sorrow removes a great deal of a person’s shallowness, but it does not always make that person better. Suffering either gives me to myself or it destroys me. You cannot find or receive yourself through success, because you lose your head over pride. And you cannot receive yourself through the monotony of your daily life, because you give in to complaining. The only way to find yourself is in the fires of sorrow. Why it should be this way is immaterial. The fact is that it is true in the Scriptures and in human experience. You can always recognize who has been through the fires of sorrow and received himself, and you know that you can go to him in your moment of trouble and find that he has plenty of time for you. But if a person has not been through the fires of sorrow, he is apt to be contemptuous, having no respect or time for you, only turning you away. If you will receive yourself in the fires of sorrow, God will make you nourishment for other people.
Suppose there is a God, suppose there are rules, suppose all 'punishment' were proportionate. Where would there be 'free will'? Would you have any choice but to believe in that God and follow his rules exactly? What would you be but a slave? Would a perfect God create slaves?
BTW, who said these natural disasters were punishment? Is death or suffering a 'punishment'?
But some say that if God were perfect, his creation would be perfect, and there would be no death or suffering. Who are those who say that? Did they create the world? Who are they to judge what is perfect?
First, there are no good people. Paul writes in Romans, "All have fallen short of the glory of God." Paul also writes than any good deed he does is like "filthy rags". We are all fallen and in need of redemption.
I take issue with the use of the word "benevolence" in the description of God from the article. While I agree that God is perfectly good, to me, the word "benevolence" excludes the concept of a perfectly just God. You will note that "Perfectly Just" is not included in the list of attributes in the article. Liberal theologians do not like to talk about God's justice because then they must acknowledge God's wrath, which doesn't fit the kindly, old Grandfather model of God they present.. I would note that "Perfectly Merciful" is also excluded from the author's list.
I am not implying that this disaster is an act of God's righteous judgement because I don't know. What we do know is that death entered the world through man's choice to rebel against God. While God allowed sin and death to enter the world, He is not the first cause. Sin and death are the consequences of Adam and Eve's free choice of disobedience..
I believe that God is sovereign. Therefore, I must conclude that God either allowed or commanded this event. I have no idea why he did because I am not Him. However, I do trust him.
Jesus never promised a rose garden. In fact, he said the opposite. He told his desciples that "if they persecuted me, they wiil persecute you as well." It seems to me that such a teaching would not fit into the author's definition of the word "benevolence".
My view is this. Sin is serious business. God takes it much more seriously than our culture. Also, I believe God's perspective is eternal. Contrast that to our perspective that is often carnal and focused on temporary things. Finally, in our secular culture, this life is all we have. Clearly, someone who has their eyes on eternity would look at this tragedy differently than someone who saw death as the end.
I don't claim to have all the answers. These are just some of my thoughts on this subject.
Also look at the vast amount of human kindness and generosity that has been brought out by the disaster. I don't know why it happened - heck, I don't even know why a car driven by a drunk driver was allowed to take the life of a wonderful, promising 20 year old girl from my choir - but the only thing we can control is our own reaction. And perhaps in later years, the survivors on those islands will look back and recall how many people came to their aid, and this will increase the goodness in the world, and God will be made more present among us.
"If we could understand God, we would be God."
A fundamental characteristic of conscious humans is that man seeks to understand nature and in turn gains increasing control of nature. History documents an upward curve of man advancing his understanding of nature and increasing control of nature. The only meaningful-measurable pause in the curve occurred during the Dark Ages.
Speculating that conscious beings -- the third macro element of existence; mater and energy the other two -- with several magnitude more advanced technologies living in other universes routinely design and create new universes. Also, that conscious beings applying greatly advanced technology in our Universe may be creating universes by design and controlling our Universe on a macro level to ensure that a "big crunch" implosion cycle never happens.
Analogous in part to Earthlings curing death billions of years before relocating to another solar system to avoid the Sun burning out.
God gave us free will to make our own choices. He could made it a perfect world in which people would be perfect but they could never be good. A good person is someone who isn't perfect. God loves us not because we meet the standards of angelic perfection but because we are mortals who struggle to do good. And He appreciates our efforts even when we fall short.
I keep thinking of the statement of one of the Chassidic greats, Lev Yitzchak of Berdichev: "God is wherever we let him in." We can feel the presence of God around us when we do good works in His name. And then His Holiness is manifest among men.
My philosophy is pretty simplistic. Bad things happen. When they do, God is there for us. We are never alone.
Exactly my way of thinking. There was a pillar of fire by night and it the way through the wilderness.
When bad things happen to good people blame God.
When good things happen to good people praise science.
"A good book that addresses the question of "Why bad things happen to good people" is Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith"
Or, the book of Job.
"God gave us free will to make our own choices."
Certainly. But my point was that if every reward and punishment were proportionate to how well a person followed the rules (was good or bad), then free will could not exist.
I agree with most of what you said.
I believe that God is sovereign.
We cannot judge God because we are incapable of that. God is sovereign and we must accept and believe. The book of Job is a most excellent book on the topic. Job declares "Though He may slay me, yet will I trust Him".or words to that effect - going on memory here. That faith and trust shall be rewarded.
I recommend you read "Till we have faces" by CS Lewis.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0156904365/qid=1104498743/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4717959-5151825?v=glance&s=books
From one of the posted reviews:
"Besides containing one of the greatest lines about being an author ever written: "I was with book, as a woman is with child", C.S. Lewis's "Till We Have Faces" also did me the service of giving me a good slap across my metaphorical face. How wrapped up we all become in our own little lives. How one-sided and self-favoring is our vision.
Though a book about many things--holiness, love, and philosophy to name a few--"Till We Have Faces" is mainly about how our perceptions can fail us. How in the name of doing what we think is right, we can do horrible things.
Orual, the protagonist of the story, spends an entire life learning what the apostle Paul meant when he said "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." The real twist in "Till We Have Faces" is that the reader, more likely than not, learns the same lesson (I know I did)."
If you have long been troubled by the questions in this article, this book will give you much to think about.
The converse, "Why good things happen to bad people" has also bothered me.
Exactly. Rabbi Blech makes the point in his book that things in this life are not what they seem. We see part of the picture and never the whole. Sure, evil people may prosper in this life but they will be repaid in the hereafter for their sins. And good people who struggle and never get rewarded find themselves richer in the next world than they ever imagined. You see to God, things are not like they seem to men. He keeps a watch on the doings of men and while never interfering with the workings of the world, He will make sure that on the Day Of Judgment, every soul is judged accordingly. Amen.
See post #31 for my thoughts on the subject. Rabbi Blech also unravels and analyzes this conundrum of mortal existence.
I think you're right. Your posts above were very good, btw, and very helpful.
"Why did you do this to us, God? What did we do to upset you?" asked a woman in India this week, a heart-wrenching question asked in common these past few days by Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians. "
Buddhists don't believe in God, so that makes this article somewhat suspect.
Hindus believe in something like three million little gods. They are idolaters and so shouldn't be so quick to criticize what they do not know.
Muslims really do not believe in the same God as Judeo/Christians. Muslims have replace rote repetition and a dogma of violence and intolerance with faith.
That leaves Christians and Jews to ponder why the world has what we consider disasters. The Old Testament/Torah and Prophets records many disasters. Some of them are attributed to God's wrath. Sodom and Gomorrah are prime examples. Revelation predicts bad things for Rome for murdering Christians.
So, ask yourself, why do sodomites and drug users suffer from Aids. Is it God punishing them, or is it just nature providing consequences to stupid behavior?
Bandeh Aceh in Indonesia was totally wiped out. It was a center for genocide of Christians.
Thailand is a tourist center partly because of its prostitutes and pedophilia.
Muslims have caused and are causing terrible havoc all over the world.
I am not saying that God has done all this. But it behooves evil people to consider that if He exists, He may not be too happy with them.
One thing that is really evil is the leftist wackos not allowing DDT to be sprayed to alleviate malaria. Now, with the tsunamis, mosquitos will be carrying death to more millions. Already, because of the leftist evil, 5 million a year die of malaria for the sole reason DDT has been condemned out of emotion rather than science. Yes, that's right there is no scientific evidence that DDT causes the harm the wackos attribute to it. People bathed in it to delouse in WWII with no ill effects. Even if there were some side effects, it beats a typhus epidemic.
Then you add to this the millions of babies killed in abortions world wide, especially in some of the countries hit with this disaster and you begin to think that maybe God's wrath is not such a far fetched thing.
I think the problem arises from our concept that death is an unfortunate thing visited upon us by a vengeful God. Death comes to all living things and is only considered bad when it comes at an inconvenient time or when it is seen to be involuntary.
Amazing how "God" only gets attention when things go badly.
Well that is unless the leftist of the world are blaming President Bush.
This event kinda makes their idea of controlling 'global warming' with a tax increase pure folly.
The idea that God is benevolent is a recent innovation, and it is unlikely to be true.
For most of human history and pre-history, God has been regarded as mean and vengeful. In order to appease His wrath various sacrifices have to be made -- burning animals, tearing the hearts out of humans, raping and killing virgins, etc.
In the Bible, this is first done by Cain and Abel, a story in which we find that God is not a vegetarian and prefers meat. Jews still sacrifice animals in the Temple at least up until the time of Jesus. Muslims still sacrifice sheep.
Human sacrifice in the Bible is described as a practice of other religions, although Abraham comes close to sacrificing his son. This theme occurs also in the killing, by God, of the firstborn of the Egyptians. It culminates in the sacrifice of the Son of God.
The Bible also records many other killings -- armies are destroyed, and the Israelites are commanded to commit genocide on the people of Caanan.
If the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, the idea of benevolence as a characteristic of God must not be true.
You never read the Book of Job???
Why is everyone busy blaming God for one or two hundred thousand deaths? Human beings on genocidal rampage regularly kill far more.....millions just in my lifetime, and I wasn't even born until after the second World War.
Maybe if we straighten out our own house, God would be more merciful. (Of course if we could do that, Jesus death upon the cross would be a cruel and unnecessary travesty.)
If this life is a short short spin compared to what incomprehensible eternity comes later, extreme suffering in this world is less than a pin prick.
Sri Lankan Families Who Lost Children Taking Tsunami Orphans
And people wonder where God is?
Faith in God is all powerful. I believe that humankind was created to serve the good purposes of the Lord. I also believe that life given by the Lord on this earth is a test of mankind given and directed by the Lord, I also believe in evil, and evil mortal men who would ordain themselves as Gods over other men. Life for me is but a test on the route to a glorious eternity. God has his purpose for our lives. We must have faith in the Lord in both good times and bad. The battle of good versus evil is the test for mankind. When nature speaks, the Lord has his purpose. Take heed, mankind!!!
The very concept of "bad" things hinges around the idea of people being punished far beyond they deserve, by the way, either because they're innocent victims or because they're punished far too harshly for their sins.
When something adequately bad happens to bad people, it's called justice, be it from God or from human law.
I think that is a very good point. The author of this article does not seem to have an understanding of eternity. It does not matter how long or how well you live on this earth. What really matters is where you spend eternity. I would rather have a rough existence here and go to Heaven when I die then have a great life and not go to Heaven.
"Sure, evil people may prosper in this life but they will be repaid in the hereafter for their sins. And good people who struggle and never get rewarded find themselves richer in the next world than they ever imagined."
Exactly. Those who question God in matters like these forget that rewards and punishment are a matter for the hereafter and not of this world. They do not think beyond this world.
I have never been tempted to question God when things go bad. I'm always afraid I will hear "I don't know, Hank. There's just something about you that I don't like".
Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful responses. Clearly there is no easy answer to this question or it would have been found a long time ago. Someone once wrote (was it Primo Levi?) "There can be no poetry after Auschwitz" yet poets continue to write. Life goes on.
I doubt that we temporal and finite beings will ever fully understand the nature of God. "Belief" is predicated upon immense faith that supersedes simple logic.
Becoming a parent has helped understand God's ways. Is it benevolent to let your child suffer the pain of punishment for lying? Do you keep them from riding a bicycle because they will get hurt?
The Almighty Father calls those to him for his purpose, why would we deny the dead the chance to live in the perfect Spirit of God.
I agree the region has thumbed its nose at God, as do we. God is not benevolent, he is to be feared, awed and worshiped. Christ was not benevolent, he raged at the temple of moneychangers. He was obedient to the Father unto death. That is much different than being benevolent.
We are called to heed the benevolence of the beatitudes and leave the Punishment of those who do evil to God. Divine punishment is something a Christian must understand and follow.
I only hope the USA can retain enough God fearing people to plea for the wrath of God to protect us instead of punish us.
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