Posted on 01/06/2005 7:58:45 PM PST by Kevin OMalley
I've been getting asked more and more about my position that high school is a waste of time and my recommendation for parents to give their children a choice to skip high school. This is in response to the liberal agendas now prevalent in high schools as well as the simple fact that such a strategy would give kids a 4 year head start on their peers. Below are some useful links for investigating this option. I will repost my own experience under that.
http://parents.berkeley.edu/advice/school/equivexam.html
UCB Parents Advice about School Taking the High School Equivalency Exam Advice and recommendations from the UCB Parents mailing list. This page is brought to you by UC Berkeley Parents Network Back to: Advice about School & Preschool --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does GED differ from CHSPE? What's an R-4 Affadavit? 16-year-old wants to drop out & take the GED
http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sp/documents/faq.pdf
California High School Proficiency Exam (CHSPE) Frequently Asked Questions — FAQs
http://www.hsc.org/chaos/teens/tests.php
Tests (CHSPE and GED) By Wes Beach Tests provide a limited means of measuring test-taking ability and maybe other things. Don't let them be any kind of measure of who your kids are. They can, however, serve important practical purposes such as high school completion or college admissions and credit.
There are two tests by means of which to earn a high-school-diploma-equivalent certificate: the California High School Proficiency Examination (CHSPE) and the General Educational Development (GED). The CHSPE has a narrower focus and tests skills and knowledge in reading, math, writing, and language. The GED includes these areas and also tests in science and social studies. Opinions vary about which test is more difficult, and different perceptions probably arise from kids with different strengths. The GED is more widely known and may be more readily accepted, although it is a myth that the CHSPE Certificate is unacceptable outside California.
In California (different states have different rules), anyone 18 or older can take the GED, and there are exceptions for somewhat younger people under some circumstances. It is administered by adult education schools in public school districts and is offered frequently. Contact your local adult school for information on the GED or call the GED Office at the California Department of Education at (800) 331-6316.
The CHSPE may be taken by anyone who, on the day of the exam, is 16 or older, or has finished the tenth grade, or is enrolled in the second semester of the tenth grade. This exam is offered two or three times a year at test sites throughout the state. CHSPE information bulletins can be found at high schools and libraries or at http://www.chspe.net/. For questions not answered in the bulletin, call (866) 342-4773. There is a great deal of misinformation about the CHSPE floating around, especially within the public schools. Check the official bulletin to confirm anything you hear. A student who passes the CHSPE still has the right to attend public high school if desired.
If a CHSPE or GED certificate is to be used for admission to college, entering the military, specific job requirements, etc., be sure to check at the source (the colleges, the military, the employer, etc.) regarding their policies.
Preparation books for these exams can be found in bookstores and libraries.
The College Board/Educational Testing Service offers a number of exams that can support college admission and/or can lead to college credit:
The PSAT, a shortened version of SAT I, is usually taken by high school juniors. If a student is in high school at the time he takes this test, he is automatically entered into the National Merit Scholarship competition. The PSAT is administered by high schools on their campuses; non-enrolled students may be allowed to take the test. Contact local high schools. SAT I (possibly along with SAT II) may be required for admission to four-year colleges and universities. There are two parts to SAT I: verbal—analogies, sentence completions, and critical reading questions—and math at the high school college preparatory level. The SAT's (I & II) are given at test sites throughout the state; sites are listed in the application booklet (see below). SAT II is a set of separate tests on high school subjects—world history, chemistry, French, etc. Advanced Placement: Colleges often grant credit for sufficiently high scores on AP exams. These exams are final exams in college-level classes taught in high school and are given at high schools at the end of the courses; students who have not taken the courses may be allowed to take the exams. Colleges also grant credit for good scores on CLEP exams. These exams are generally easier than AP exams, are given at test centers throughout the state, and cover the content of more than thirty college-level courses. ACT (formerly American College Testing) offers the ACT, a somewhat broader college admission test that colleges may use instead of or in addition to the SAT. The ACT consists of four sections: English, math, reading, and science. Even when SAT/ACT scores aren't required, they provide one way (there are others) to demonstrate academic ability and acquired knowledge in the absence of a traditional transcript. It may be possible to gain admission to the schools your kids choose through testing alone, and impressive test scores always add strength to a college application. Just as in the case with the SAT/ACT, good scores on AP and/or CLEP exams can support a college application. Check carefully with colleges of interest for their policies regarding credit. Classes that prepare students for these tests may be offered by high schools, adult schools, community colleges, and private companies.
Guides and preparation materials can be found in libraries and bookstores. Explanatory and application materials from the College Board and ACT can be found at high schools, colleges, and libraries, and also can be obtained directly from the College Board at (510) 873-8000 or at http://www.collegeboard.org; SAT tests will be changing within the next few years. To keep informed of those changes, check the website http://www.collegeboard.com/about/newsat/newsat.html. Information about the ACT can be obtained at (916) 631-9200 or at http://www.act.org. Information on the GED is available at http://www.acenet.edu/calec/ged.
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/dean/archives/000064.htm
College Confidential: Does CHSPE = GED?
Question: When colleges say that they accept GEDs, what does that mean for the CHSPE? Do they accept that credential as a high school diploma? If not, what should I do?
At the California High School Proficiency Examination (CHSPE) Web site (www.cde.ca.gov/statetests/chspe) you can find an Information Bulletin and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about the CHSPE. California law states that the Certificate of Proficiency provided to students who pass the CHSPE is equivalent to a high school diploma. In other words, institutions that are subject to California law and that require a high school diploma must also accept the CHSPE. (However, the Certificate of Proficiency is not equivalent to completing all course work required for regular graduation from high school.)
Therefore, if you've received the CHSPE Certificate of Proficiency, your certificate would be equivalent to a high school diploma. The Certificate of Proficiency is not equivalent to completing all course work required for regular graduation from high school in California. However--and this is a good caveat for most general college-entrance-related questions--you should always check with the admissions offices (or admissions sections of the Web sites) of those colleges to which you are considering applying. This is especially important if you're interested in colleges and universities outside of California that may not accept the CHSPE or may not even be familiar with it.
"when you leave college out of the equation."
***Please note that the WHOLE POINT of this discussion is to move kids onto college quicker and more efficiently, avoiding the idiotic roadblocks in the way. Focusing on folks with just HS or just GED diplomas is a complete and irrelevant side issue.
Before you do the GED with the idea of going into the military, check with the particular branch. My son did the GED route (the State of Illinois would not allow him to take the test until after his age cohort had graduated high school, thanks to the teacher's union).
Air Force and Navy would not, at that time (2000), accept a GED, but the Army and Marines would. So he joined the Army, they sent him to language scool, and now he gets to run around with SF, which is pretty interesting (even when he's not in Iraq!).
"he is probably going to favor the candidate with the diploma."
On that we can agree, but it is a little different than your original post.
What is the point of a FR diploma? Think about that for a minute, the fact that it is assocated with FR is a big clue.
***The point is to remove the mysterious stigma that seems to be attached to a generic GED, primarily by having a higher standard. I don't understand why the stigma exists, but it does. But it would be kind of like those religious universities where people go because of the higher standards, not for the religious indoctrination. The fact that this diploma is associated with FR was my idea. Here's why I thought it would make sense for FR to adopt it:
1) One of the posters here (Max Combined) said that they printed their own diploma. If they can do it, there should be very little to prevent an organization like FR to do it. And most likely, Max Combined wouldn't be in a position to proxy exams for thousands of students nationwide and support such an endeavor.
2) This could be another way to raise funds and awareness for Free Republic.
3) We are on the cusp of a social revolution, having brought down Dan Rather and leveraged our weight in this last election. This could be one area where we get lots of bang for our buck and make a statement, all the while generating a positive impact to our nation.
4) I see it as staking out a worthwhile position which would affect positive, disruptive and needed change in our educational establishments, all the while helping the public with a useful service.
>>what if you're a child who isn't being taught faith & morals?
Then I doubt you'd be interested in a FR diploma in the first place.
***Such a person would still be interested because of the higher standards associated with the diploma.
I already gave you the answer: home school.
***Please help me to understand your position. I said that
if you're a child who isn't being taught faith & morals, how can you escape...? And your answer was to be home schooled? That simply doesn't make sense and does not acknowledge the condition stated. That's great that there are kids who are being home schooled, and I support it. But not everyone can do it. The way I see it, maybe 5% of people can afford private school, maybe another 5% can arrange for home schooling. It doesn't matter what the real percentages are, they are obviously small minorities compared to the great majority of people who rely on public schools for their kids' education. This idea is for the vast majority who cannot afford either of those expensive options.
All we need are more rabid capitalists (most of whom's moral positions are flaky).
***I agree with you in some ways and cringe at some of the lack of morality & compassion in the rabid capitalist & free trader contingents here on Free Republic, but that would be a side issue.
Admittedly the left is pumping out rabid socialists and communists. But it's like fighting evil with evil, not a real solution.
***I don't see it as fighting evil with evil. I see it as staking out a useful position which would affect positive, disruptive and needed change in our educational establishments. There's no evil in this. Giving people a choice about their future that includes harder work with better incentives is classicly American. We are setting high school prisoners free.
This would be an acknowledged issue requiring dialog between the parent and the teenager. There are mitigating circumstances. For one, the 18 year old sleeping with a 16 year old would be subject to statutory rape charges, whereas a father would have no recourse against another 16 year old high school student. And don't think that I wouldn't for one moment file them, just after having a private "discussion" with the guy. If your daughter wants to throw her life away on some loser, she would at least have had some college credits under her belt, better off than a high school dropout with an illegitimate child.
Hardly. I did not mention college in my original post.
"Liberals don't suck on every position, and neither do leftists."
As a rule of thumb they do.
You teach your kid your way, pal, and I'll TEACH, not train, my kid my way.
>>You teach your kid your way, pal, and I'll TEACH, not train, my kid my way.
Well, don't act as if you are part of the solution, PAL.
For a later read ...
Liberals are good on issues like drug laws and freedom of speech issues.
Conservatives are good on issues like the death penalty and taxes.
Kid genius just
can't get ahead
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/101278p-91697c.html
By JOE WILLIAMS
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Angela Lipsman, 15, a genius who skipped high school to go to college, can't get her degrees without a diploma.
Angela Lipsman is a really smart kid, but a really, really dumb rule is keeping the 15-year-old from getting a college degree.
Angela, who skipped high school and went straight to college last year, has earned her associate's degree and is on her way to a bachelor's - but she can't have the sheepskins because she never got a high school diploma.
Even worse, the gifted girl's proud dad is being investigated by child protective services for alleged educational neglect - for letting his daughter go to college.
"It's not fair," said Angela, who has a 3.84 grade point average and 71 credits from Borough of Manhattan Community College and Fashion Institute of Technology. "I'm still going to school and I'm still getting an education."
The hard lesson came from an Albany judge who ruled against Angela's age-discrimination suit challenging the state Education Department's edict that kids have to stay in school until age 16 and can't get general equivalency diplomas until they turn 17.
Angela's father, retired teacher Daniel Lipsman, figures she'll have her bachelor's degree wrapped up by the time she turns 17 and will then get three diplomas at once - including the GED.
"It's very demoralizing," said Lipsman, who vowed that he'll "go to prison before my daughter goes to a city high school."
Albany Supreme Court Justice Bernard Malone blamed Lipsman for steering his brainy daughter to college after she completed eighth grade at Public School 187 in Washington Heights.
"Angela was not legally free to skip high school," Malone wrote this week in ruling against Angela.
He noted that Angela could have been declared a home-schooled student and placed in a fast-track program, or she could have attended high school programs that allow students to earn college credits simultaneously.
Dad will appeal
Lipsman said he probably will appeal the decision. But he was still holding out hope the city Education Department would grant his daughter a diploma.
Yesterday, Schools Chancellor Joel Klein offered hope to Angela, who recently learned she has enough transfer credits for an associate's degree from Albany-based Excelsior College.
"We are evaluating the student's college credits to determine whether the credits may be applied toward a high school diploma," Klein said in a written statement.
Originally published on July 16, 2003
I found this on TxBec's home page here in Free Republic.
Allowing gifted students to skip high school in Calfornia
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/702562/posts
In addition, here is an interesting proposal from Michigan:
http://www.bridges4kids.org/articles/4-04/MIRS4-23-04.html#top
Smart Kid? Skip High School
MIRS, April 23, 2004
For more articles like this visit http://www.bridges4kids.org.
It's always been assumed that dropping out of high school is a bad thing, but a West Michigan lawmaker has a new twist on the drop out situation with the state picking up the tab.
Rep. Jack Hoogendyk (R-Portage) is finalizing legislation that would allow advanced students to end their high school career after their sophomore year and enter community college or a four-year university with the state paying for the first two yeas of that higher education.
"If you have a motivated son or daughter at home and they want to get moving with their lives and high school is not that important to them, they certainly will have that opportunity," he said.
Funding for this unique program would come by shifting K-12 funds that would go for the 11th and 12th grades and using it pay for kid's college tuition, books and fees. Hoogendyk said that will actually save money for the state because, in most cases, the foundation grant is higher than the tuition in a J.C. or four-year school.
Plus he argues the concept fits in with the Granholm administration's goal of training more students for jobs of the future.
"What will this do for Michigan? I believe it will get more kids in college quicker and will help the governor meet her goals of getting more of children through college and ready for the work force," he contends.
Hoogendyk is calling his bill the Michigan Accelerated College Education Act (MI-ACE) and is eligible to any 15-to 19-year-old who has completed two years of high school or earned high scores on the ACT or SAT.
HB 5791 has been referred to the House Higher Education Committee for review and consideration.
People are rooting for you on another thread, DameAutour.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1316944/posts?q=1&&page=521#521
Also, this comment was worthy of repeating:
To: BobL
There is nothing wrong or stigmatic about a GED. In fact the newly re-elected Governor of the State of Delaware has a GED
407 posted on 01/09/2005 8:12:40 AM PST by Gabz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 393 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
I'm currently homeschooling 3 boys, with my 11-year-old routinely doing high-school-level work.
High school was a GREAT bore to me, even though I did well. My family moved every year or two, and although I had straight A's, I was always having to make up lower-level "required" courses unique to that particular school district or state, which I deemed to be a great waste of time. (My American Government class would not count for the required State Government class; two years of History classes did not meet the requirements for a freshman-level World History class in another state. It was maddening.)
My senior year I did the fast-track thing, taking community college classes that also counted toward my high school credits. I also CLEPed a few math and language courses, so I started college at 17 with 18 credits under my belt.
If I could have skipped high school altogether, or even just two years of it, I would have most certainly chosen to do that. If my children were able to take advantage of an opportunity like this, I believe it could be extremely beneficial to them.
Also, a friend of my sister's has two daughters that were homeschooled. Both started community college classes at 15, transferred to a Top Tier school, and got their bachelors degrees at 18 and 19. One now owns her own business, another works for a major firm in another city. I think the employers in the second case looked at the initiative, the college grades, and the girl's achievements rather than lack of a high school diploma.
Yes, this idea intrigues me very much. I shall be keeping a close eye on this (and related) threads.
"What is the point of a FR diploma? Think about that for a minute, the fact that it is assocated with FR is a big clue. "
***One other thing. I would support this program, albeit a little less enthusiastically but support it nonetheless, if it were offered by Democratic Underground. Something tells me that they wouldn't even touch such a program with a ten foot pole because they know that it would be an acknowlegement of the terrible condition that our high schools are in. But if they did offer it, more power to them. We could have competing DU and FR high school diplomas, with appropriate tracking of results or whatever. Of course, the sound of a "Free Republic High School Diploma" is more attractive versus "Democratic Underground High School Diploma" -- they would probably have to utilize some other name. ;-)
I know what liberals fear about such a program: The first to take advantage of it are the brightest students. Then the middle tier overachievers would feel compelled to follow them because of "peer pressure" or pressure from parents or whatever, hoping not to appear noncompetitive. If kids were to take advantage of this in very large numbers, the decaying high school administrations in this country could be stuck with the 2nd tier of students and less funding. This is probably a bit of slippery slope reasoning but I detect the fear anyways. We could start a stampede.
That's why I would support some kind of funding follower setup such as has been suggested in Michigan.
"Many have observed that a bachelor's degree is probably equal to what a high school diploma was 40 years ago. That's how much it's been dumbed down. "
BINGO!
I went to high school in the early 60's. It was a small public school in a small town, but it was in the age of accountability. There were real consequences for bad behavior. The teachers were probably better educated than what we have today. Parents weren't suing the school district because their little Johnny or Susie couldn't wear their t-shirts or because they felt "persecuted" in a game of dodge ball or whatever.
The dumbing down to the lowest common denominator has not served our schools well. I do believe that my high school education is the equivalent to a college degree today. I am amazed at the number of educated fools with alphabet soup after their names.
I think that Fr. Guido Sarducci had it right. Might as well go the "Five Minute University" route. :) Anyone remember that?
As far as skipping high school and going directly to college, I think it is a bad idea. Advanced courses, yes. But these are still children in the process of growing up and dealing with puberty. They are not emotionally ready for college, IMO. They still need to learn social interaction with their peers.
What is so great about graduating from college at 18 or 19? Childhood is so short. It is a long time that one is an adult and in the working world.
"But these are still children in the process of growing up and dealing with puberty. They are not emotionally ready for college, IMO. They still need to learn social interaction with their peers. "
***Boy, it probably HAS been a long time since you set foot on a high school campus. The social interaction kids "enjoy" today in high school is what the average navy sailor experiences the first time he crosses the equator: downright hazing. If you think that is a positive thing, something is truly misfiring upstairs. I found college to be a much more cordial environment than high school. I probably STILL am not "emotionally ready" to deal with high school, whatever that means.
That position is just plain wrongheaded. I think the kids should have their own choice.
I don't know where or when you went to high school, but it seems that you had an unpleasant experience. It seems you did not learn the social skills necessary to formulate a more thoughtful reply to my post. I infer from your reply that you were picked on in high school therefore you have come to the conclusion that ALL high schools are corrupt and demeaning to kids.
Kids should have some input, but I think it is up to responsible parents to decide what is best for their children.
I suggest you visit several high schools in small towns in the south. Start with Summerville, SC.
I don't know where or when you went to high school,
***Geez, that proves you didn't read through the thread AT ALL. It's right up in there. So, you just came right on over and started spouting off your IMO garbage without reading through the thread. Why should we listen to someone who hasn't bothered to take the time to come up to speed nor learn the issues being discussed?
but it seems that you had an unpleasant experience.
***Aye. It was so bad they made a hit movie about my high school. But you wouldn't know about it, not having read the thread. Thank you for being obvious, though.
It seems you did not learn the social skills necessary to formulate a more thoughtful reply to my post.
***If you had bothered to read through this thread you would have seen that I do have the social skills necessary to formulate thoughtful replies. But your obvious regurgitated, unthinking slop is not worth a "thoughtful" reply. The hundreds of thousands of kids who are looking for a way out of the drudgery they're experiencing at high school and who want to go on to college will see your idiocy for what it is. It is unquantifiable garbage. It is obvious from your post that you did not gain the social skills suggested in the beginner's FAQ and read through the posts before commenting. That makes you a hypocrite as well.
I infer from your reply that you were picked on in high school
***BZZZZT wrong. I was not necessarily picked on in high school. I was in advanced classes, usually the top of my class, I was an athlete. I was just wasting my time, as are MOST of the high school kids today. But the fact was that I saw a lot of kids getting picked on, and they still are, which is what passes for "getting socialized". What a gigantic crock of horse manure.
therefore you have come to the conclusion that ALL high schools are corrupt and demeaning to kids.
***Fascinating that you tell me what conclusion I have come to. Amazing that you can "infer" and that you can tell me what I conclude. Please tell me what I think about my neighbor across the street. If you can't do that, please do not try to read my mind, just read my posts. Show me where I said that "ALL high schools are corrupt and demeaning?" Geez, where did you come from?
Kids should have some input,
***It's THEIR life, they should have more than just SOME input.
but I think it is up to responsible parents to decide what is best for their children.
***You'd be amazed how many "responsible" parents have no idea what's happening in schools today. Then they put on their horse blinders and earmuffs and don't listen to their children when they come home with horror stories. Then, after the kids have wasted 4 years of their lives and go on to community college & burn out from all the nonsense, the parents wonder what happened. After all, the kid went to a "good" high school.
I suggest you visit several high schools in small towns in the south. Start with Summerville, SC.
***I'd be more than happy to do so. Please send me the airplane ticket and hotel voucher, meals would be nice as well. My request for you is much simpler: PLEASE read through the thread BEFORE posting, and on top of that please read the introductory FAQ for this great forum. Oh, and here is a litmus test for the future. Once kids have the freedom to move on to college, how many of them will do so in Summerville, SC? If the high school is so great, why are they compelling kids to stick around? What do they have to lose?
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