CARDINAL SAYS BUSH BROKE IRAQ PROMISE

YAHOOO VIA AP ^ | 1/10/05

[mike182d]

Which "just war theory" of the Church are you referring to? The post-world war decade or the 1800 years prior? They are two fundamentally different theories.

[Alberta's Child]

The fact that you even refer to this as a "reconstruction effort" is astounding. That may be the case in much of the country, but the U.S. now finds itself in a bizarre situation where public infrastructure that was "reconstructed" only 1-2 years ago is being heavily damaged or destroyed in ongoing military action.

[Alberta's Child]

There's only one "just war theory." You may be referring to applications of it in the atomic age, but moral teachings of the Catholic Church don't change.

[Romulus]

It certainly does.

You'll have to remind me about the "reasonable prospect of success" part.

[mike182d]

"The Insurgents operate effectively in only 4 of Iraq’s 18 provinces. In the four where they are able to operate the locals oppose them, are turning the in to the coalition wholesale and the Insurgents have taken to wearing masks to prevent local from identifying them and turning them in to authorities. (hearts and minds) http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2004/12/iraq-041215-afps03.htm www.startribune.com/stories/709/5155840.html http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/release_list.asp http://www.mnf-iraq.com/media-information/news-releases.htm"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1315301/posts

I think this has been a rather successful effort.

[M Kehoe]

Please forgive me your Eminence...Yawn.

5.56mm

[Capt. Tom]

Good Lord, now it's getting even tougher to be Catholic.

Since this isn't a matter of Church doctrine ; remember this guy and the pope are no more of a Catholic than you are.

So if you disagree, contact them and give them your two cents.
Like STFU and stay out of America's business while are troops are being killed. Why don't you and the Pope tend to the business of the Church and kick out heretics like John Kerry who hold and persist in holding views contrary to Church Doctrine. - Tom,

[RexBeach]

Amen.

[mike182d]

As a Catholic, I would normally agree with this statement, but the Church's evolving stance on just war is difficult to reconcile.

From earlier, the Church has gone from:
"What is evil about war is not the death of men who will die anyway..." (St. Thomas Aquinas)

to

What is evil about war is the death of men.

If the Church feels that the state of Iraq prior to the war as opposed to after the war was more "just," I question their definition of the word "justice." Diplomacy could not have worked because it was Iraq's clear disregard for diplomacy (the contingent ceasefire after the Gulf War in '90, and the subsequent failed 14 international resolutions that tried to maintain it peacefully) that caused the war in the first place. This was wasn't just about WMDs...

[sinkspur]

You'll have to remind me about the "reasonable prospect of success" part.

The coalition defeated Hussein's army in three weeks. That's reasonable, to me.

[Romulus]

And you approve of this misdirected meddling??

Exchanges like this are not meddling (the chronic whine of thugs called to account); they are the ordinary business of international diplomacy. If you object to the existence of full diplomatic relations between the US and the Vatican City State, I suggest you take it up with President Reagan, who instituted them.

[Chi-townChief]

However, the Cardinal may have invented this quote: "... he (Bush) told me: `Don't worry, your eminence. We'll be quick and do well in Iraq.'"

[Romulus]

If it was a success, why are we still there?

[Alberta's Child]

If "defeating Hussein's army in three weeks" is what constitutes "success" under the just war doctrine, then U.S. forces should have vacated the premises no later than Week Four.

[malakhi]

If it was a success, why are we still there?

By that standard, WWII was a failure.

[Alberta's Child]

If the Church feels that the state of Iraq prior to the war as opposed to after the war was more "just," I question their definition of the word "justice."

More likely, the Church feels that the United States is in no position to render "justice" to any other sovereign nation in the world.

[malakhi]

More likely, the Church feels that the United States is in no position to render "justice" to any other sovereign nation in the world.

Congratulations. Michael Moore couldn't have said it any better.

[Alberta's Child]

You have got to be kidding me. It's about 20 months since "the end of major combat operations" in Iraq, and you think the U.S. is successful because the enemy is now wearing masks???

[mike182d]

More likely, the Church feels that the United States is in no position to render "justice" to any other sovereign nation in the world.

That is the very role of sovereign nations: to ensure a stable and just society and war, like it or not, is necessary part of this at times.

Would you consider our invasion of Germany just? Furthermore, what about Iraq is substantially different than Germany's aggression? (Saddam failed at an invasion attempt earlier, failed to comply with resolutions meant to keep him in check afterwards, vowed every year since to get revenge on the U.S.) After all, Germany never attacked us.

[dangus]

Isn't that all the more reason for the Vatican to preach morality? If Muslims learn that even the Vatican opposes America, shouldn't it at least be for just causes? Shouldn't the Vatican stand up as an example of Christianity upholding morality?